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Can The Case Be Made That Christ Died For All?

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Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
AustinC said:
Being just (a legal judge) does not require or obligate the judge to pardon all lawbreakers. God is under no obligation to pardon even one sinner. He does not have to make a way for anyone to be saved.

Your assertion shows us how you place yourself above God and demand he do what you think he should do.

If God chose to pardon just one sinner, that would be incredible, amazing grace. The fact that God chooses to save millions of people is astounding and mind boggling, amazing grace.
Grace: God giving to us what we do not deserve.

Silverhair, your post shows us that you do not want grace at all. You just want God to open the gate of the prison and then let you run out on your own to your own image of what freedom means to you.

This thread has done an excellent job of revealing your man-centered philosophy, which you demand that God take his subjective spot below you.

Silverhair, you do not know grace.
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Did not say that God was obligated but I did say He is just. But you do not deal with His justice. As is usual you make a number of strawman comments that you feel you can defeat.

Does God desire that all be saved, YES. Has He provided the way for man to be saved, YES. Has He placed a condition on how one may access that salvation, YES.

But under your calvinist theology the offer of salvation is moot. According to calvinism He has picked out a select group to be saved and the rest have no chance to be saved. It is not their sin that prevents them it is the calvinist god that does that.

Calvinism has made the gospel of no value. Christ Jesus did not have to go to the cross for the calvinist as they were already picked out and according to calvinist whatever He has decreed will surely happen. Remember that according to calcinism God has decreed unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass.

Only those that are included in the Unconditional Election will partake of the Limited Atonement and will be drawn to God by His Irresistible Grace. So all men do not have an equal chance to know or trust in God. The calvinist theology precludes this, but they just do not want to acknowledge that fact.

So because of calvinist theology
The absolutely elect must have been saved without Christ Jesus;
and the non-elect cannot be saved by him.

The bible is very clear that God makes a bona fide offer of salvation to all people everywhere (Joh_3:16-18; Joh_3:36; Joh_5:24; Joh_12:32; Rom_10:9, Rom_10:13). Anyone can be saved by repenting of his sins and believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, if a person is lost, it is because he chooses to be lost, not because God desires it.
 
Reformed

Reformed

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37818 said:
Belief in the general redemption is the work of the Holy Spirit and His teaching.

Matthew 20:28, ". . . Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. . . ."
Matthew 22:14, ". . . For many are called, but few are chosen. . . ."
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Friend, you and I see these passages differently.

As a Calvinist, I happily confess that there is an outward call of the Gospel. As an example, when a Gospel message is preached, all within hearing range are under the outward call of the Gospel. However, only those appointed unto eternal life believe (Acts 13:48).
 
SovereignGrace

SovereignGrace

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Yes God is just, but let us not conflate His justice with fairness. Him being just means He gives what they deserve, not that He has to call everyone. That turns justice into obligation.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
How is my saying you will not even defend your failed view, calling myself out. I have posted the scriptures three times now and you have just twisted and dodged rather than answer. So it would seem you are the one being called out.
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Lol except you quoted yourself then called yourself out.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
Actually what it shows is that you do not understand the DoG. Simple logic points out the errors of that view. But you will continue to defend it.
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If you actually articulated the Doctrines of Grace, you might have a point, but you don't. You articulate caricatures.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
SovereignGrace said:
Yes God is just, but let us not conflate His justice with fairness. Him being just means He gives what they deserve, not that He has to call everyone. That turns justice into obligation.
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Exactly. The humanistic beliefs of some on this board is pretty shocking.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
So is it a joke not to believe in the general redemption? Who is the owner the lost deny that bought them how, in 2 Peter 2:1? Who is that owner? How did that owner buy them?
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Oh brother, if you are going to keep focusing on that one verse after we have shown the error many times it's not even worth my time.

Peter is not saying Christ actually bought them. They had claimed that, but they are a false teacher. They are going against their own teaching denying the one that they claimed bought them. If you focus on singular verses as proof texts you will always fall into error.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
Reformed1689 said:
Oh brother, if you are going to keep focusing on that one verse after we have shown the error many times it's not even worth my time.

Peter is not saying Christ actually bought them. They had claimed that, but they are a false teacher. They are going against their own teaching denying the one that they claimed bought them. If you focus on singular verses as proof texts you will always fall into error.
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Wow. I believe in the general redemption because of the particular purpose of the redemption. I affirm the general redemption and you admit to deny it It makes those on one side of this argument or the other false teachers in this matter, does it not? This is not escapable.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
Wow. I believe in the general redemption because of the particular purpose of the redemption. I affirm the general redemption and you admit to deny it It makes those on one side of this argument or the other false teachers in this matter, does it not? This is not escapable.
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Let me ask you this, when you say "general redemption" what do you mean? If, by that, you mean all have been bought and paid for, then I 100% reject that as heresy.
 
A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
Wow. I believe in the general redemption because of the particular purpose of the redemption. I affirm the general redemption and you admit to deny it It makes those on one side of this argument or the other false teachers in this matter, does it not? This is not escapable.
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I cannot find a definition for general redemption anywhere, except for a law journal on stocks and bonds.
Here's one definition of redemption:
Redemption means to secure the release or recovery of persons or things by the payment of a price. It is a covenantal legal term closely associated with ransom, atonement, substitution, and deliverance, thus salvation. Theologically, redemption refers ultimately to the saving work of Christ, who came to accomplish our redemption by giving his life in substitution for our own as the ransom price.

In this definition, where do you see a general work of God on behalf of every human ever created?

Was the price only partially paid and then the human had to act before the rest of the price was paid? Is the secured release contingent upon human actions, but withdrawn if humans don't act?

How is redemption 100% of God if that person ultimately isn't redeemed?
Do you have a working definition of General Redemption, because I cannot find one.

Redemption - The Gospel Coalition
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
SovereignGrace said:
Yes God is just, but let us not conflate His justice with fairness. Him being just means He gives what they deserve, not that He has to call everyone. That turns justice into obligation.
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Actually for God to be called JUST He has to behave according to what is morally equitable and impartial. If He gives an advantage to one group over another but then judges each group by the same standard He is not being just.

Are we all sinners,YES. Do we all deserve His wrath, YES. Under calvinism do we all have an equal chance to be saved, NO. Therefore God, under calvinism, would not be just.
 
SovereignGrace

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Silverhair said:
Actually for God to be called JUST He has to behave according to what is morally equitable and impartial. If He gives an advantage to one group over another but then judges each group by the same standard He is not being just.

Are we all sinners,YES. Do we all deserve His wrath, YES. Under calvinism do we all have an equal chance to be saved, NO. Therefore God, under calvinism, would not be just.
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You just keep chasing your tail…

#RoundAndRoundAndRoundAndRound
 
SovereignGrace

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Silverhair said:
Actually for God to be called JUST He has to behave according to what is morally equitable and impartial. If He gives an advantage to one group over another but then judges each group by the same standard He is not being just.

Are we all sinners,YES. Do we all deserve His wrath, YES. Under calvinism do we all have an equal chance to be saved, NO. Therefore God, under calvinism, would not be just.
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Election is not based upon who Joe, John, Jane, Jimmy, Jose, Juanita, are or what they do. It’s based solely upon Him…So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.[Romans 9:18 NASB]
 
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