Christ's Return: Spiritual or Physical?

[Lodic]

In the chapter we have a series of contrasts between the new life and the old, the things we will become contrasted to those things we are being saved from. Those good qualities of the new creature (v. 42-44) are: incorruption, glory, power, spiritual. Then we read about the originators of the two classes, Adam and Christ. Adam "became a living being". Christ, "a life-giving Spirit."

Then we come to a very important, oft-overlooked, detail. Overlooked in application, the origins of these two persons.

"The first man is of the earth (ἐκ γῆς), earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven (ἐξ οὐρανοῦ) ."

This passage is a continuation of verse 40: somata epigeia and somata epourania now become "ek ges" and "ex ouranou". This preposition (ek, ex - the forms only differ because of euphonics) shows origin. Adam came from the earth, from the dust. This brings to mind the very passage from Genesis. The "Second Adam" came from heaven.

Note: In both cases, the origins determine the essence of who these two are - and (v. 48) the essence of their "followers".

Verse 49 says that "we shall bear the image of the heavenly man" (the Second Adam, from heaven).

Now here is why I believe our bodies will not be physical. Individual, yes, but not “flesh and blood" or "flesh and bones":

We shall be like Christ. I John 3:2
He does not need to be like us. He now has the glory He had with the Father.

And what exactly is Christ like - according to I Cor. 15?

He is like He was when He came to Earth, before His Incarnation. He is spiritual.
Was Christ fleshly before he came here to Earth? No. He was pure Spirit.
We - according to this passage - will also be like Him.
Pure spirit. Individual bodies, but spirit.

We cannot have part Adam's essence ("dust") and part Christ's, seeing that we could not then "enter into the Kingdom of God". "Dust" has to do with "flesh and blood", not spirit.

But what about His being, "the Man Christ Jesus"?

This brings us to Hebrews.
The writer of this epistle tells just what is/will be involved by being partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus. Hebrews 12: 18 – 24. Notice especially this part, vss. 22A, 23c:

“But you are come unto Mount Zion … and to the spirits of just men made perfect.”

Humanity does not require a physical body. My father and mother, both dead now, both Christians, do not have physical bodies.

I believe this is what Scripture teaches. I know the tradition of men teaches otherwise, especially modern tradition. I am quite open to changing my views, but please deal with these verses. If I missed something you will have done me a great favor.

Hi Tom. I haven't figured out how to add selected quotes instead of attaching an entire previous message, so I do apologize for that. You do present an interesting case - not only with me, but also with the Biblicist and others. I don't believe the Hebrews passage necessarily means that we will not have a physical body. Romans 8:23 speaks of the redemption of our bodies, not from our bodies. Philippians 3:21 is about the transformation of our humble bodies. Having said that, I will confess that I'm not entirely sure one way or the other. I see strong arguments for both positions.

 

[The Biblicist]

Most definitely. Otherwise our faith is in vain.

Ok, then the only reason I can see for insisting that he is not coming back just as they saw him leave must be found in your eschatology and not this text, because there is absolutely nothing in this text to suggest even remotely that he did not leave this earth in a physical human body and that is precisely how he is returning in a visible return.

 

[asterisktom]

Brother, it is important what terms we use when we talk. For example, Jesus did not exist prior to the incarnation as Jesus refers to the man born of a virgin. God became flesh but flesh did not become God. Prior to the incarnation, God the Son existed as the eternal Word and Jehovah our Savior (Jesus in sense of meaning not in sense of incarnation).

So, in Acts 1 it is "Jesus" the man within whom God the Son dwelt that was taken up but God the Son already existed in heaven before "Jesus" the human being ascended because God is ominipresent. For example, Jesus standing before Nicodemus on earth claimed that he at the same point in time as the Son of God was in heaven (Jn. 3:11).

So, we need to distinguish Jesus as the man born of a virgin Mary form the Eternal Word, the Second Person of the Godhead who is omnipresent, immutable and eternal. Take a second and consider the words "omnipresent", "immutable" and "eternal." Hence, when becoming man, meaning indweling the human body of Jesus of nazerath in the womb of Mary the eternal Word remained "immutable" and"eternal" as well as "omnipresent" the human nature of Jesus did not and never will become omnipresent.

The mystery is that God who is immutable can co-exist in one person Jesus along with human nature without mixture but also without division of Person.

Your have some good points here - to an extent. Jesus, in a very real sense, does extend back before the Incarnation. He is the "Lamb slain before the foundation of the world".

But I believe the tendency - in these groups, especially - is to delve deeper than we are able to know. There is much about God's Word I do not understand, and this after decades studying, learning and unlearning and relearning. But there are certain things I do understand and am totally convinced of. And one of those is that the "days of [Christ's] flesh" are long gone. No one has been able to Scripturally prove otherwise to me.

I do appreciate your taking the time to write all of what you wrote.

 

[asterisktom]

Hi Tom. I haven't figured out how to add selected quotes instead of attaching an entire previous message, so I do apologize for that. You do present an interesting case - not only with me, but also with the Biblicist and others. I don't believe the Hebrews passage necessarily means that we will not have a physical body. Romans 8:23 speaks of the redemption of our bodies, not from our bodies. Philippians 3:21 is about the transformation of our humble bodies. Having said that, I will confess that I'm not entirely sure one way or the other. I see strong arguments for both positions.

Hello, Lodic. I'm going to take a break on this bang on my guitar and enjoy some sunshine. I will pick this up later.

For selective quotes just highlight the part you want to answer and click on the "reply".

 

[The Biblicist]

Your have some good points here - to an extent. Jesus, in a very real sense, does extend back before the Incarnation. He is the "Lamb slain before the foundation of the world".

But I believe the tendency - in these groups, especially - is to delve deeper than we are able to know. There is much about God's Word I do not understand, and this after decades studying, learning and unlearning and relearning. But there are certain things I do understand and am totally convinced of. And one of those is that the "days of [Christ's] flesh" are long gone. No one has been able to Scripturally prove otherwise to me.

I do appreciate your taking the time to write all of what you wrote.

Your welcome. May I suggest that the days of our flesh will be gone when we received a glorified body as our resurrected body will not be as it was. Prior to the glorification of Christ's body it was subject to death, hunger, pain, etc. - but no more.

 

[robycop3]

Both full and partial preterism are false. The prophesied events simply haven't yet happened & there's simply NO avoiding that FACT.

As I said, Jesus will PHYSICALLY return to earth, seen by all, as He said. And again, He comes SPIRITUALLY whenever/wherever two or three are gathered in His name, as He said in Matt. 18:20.

Now, what type of body He will have at His return, I don't know, except that He will be in His full power & glory. Remember, at His first coming, He lived as a "lamb", but He shall return as a "LION".

 

[asterisktom]

Hi Tom. I haven't figured out how to add selected quotes instead of attaching an entire previous message, so I do apologize for that. You do present an interesting case - not only with me, but also with the Biblicist and others. I don't believe the Hebrews passage necessarily means that we will not have a physical body. Romans 8:23 speaks of the redemption of our bodies, not from our bodies. Philippians 3:21 is about the transformation of our humble bodies. Having said that, I will confess that I'm not entirely sure one way or the other. I see strong arguments for both positions.

Hi Lodic. The verses you quoted actually refer to the singular, "body". I believe this is a corporate term, the same as in Eph. 4:4. But, yes, individually we will be transformed. For us that will happen after we die. For the saints at the time of the Parousia, AD 70, it was instantaneous.

BTW there is a division among Preterists on this topic of resurrection. One group (Don Preston is the most well-known advocate of this view), lays great stress on this corporate view, making most or all the resurrection passages be about corporate and/or positional change. The other is the individual body view (Ed Stevens has written much on this) which says that when Christ came in AD 70 it meant instant individual resurrections and transformations of saints, dead and living, respectively, 1Cor 15:51-54. This is the view that I think is more correct.

 

[Lodic]

Hi Lodic. The verses you quoted actually refer to the singular, "body". I believe this is a corporate term, the same as in Eph. 4:4. But, yes, individually we will be transformed. For us that will happen after we die. For the saints at the time of the Parousia, AD 70, it was instantaneous.

BTW there is a division among Preterists on this topic of resurrection. One group (Don Preston is the most well-known advocate of this view), lays great stress on this corporate view, making most or all the resurrection passages be about corporate and/or positional change. The other is the individual body view (Ed Stevens has written much on this) which says that when Christ came in AD 70 it meant instant individual resurrections and transformations of saints, dead and living, respectively, 1Cor 15:51-54. This is the view that I think is more correct.

I didn't know about the different views you mentioned. I also think that the view Ed Stevens promotes is the correct one.

 

[Lodic]

Both full and partial preterism are false. The prophesied events simply haven't yet happened & there's simply NO avoiding that FACT.

As I said, Jesus will PHYSICALLY return to earth, seen by all, as He said. And again, He comes SPIRITUALLY whenever/wherever two or three are gathered in His name, as He said in Matt. 18:20.

Now, what type of body He will have at His return, I don't know, except that He will be in His full power & glory. Remember, at His first coming, He lived as a "lamb", but He shall return as a "LION".

Hello, Brother. I agree with you the physical Second Advent is in our future, and the Scripture doesn't make it clear about the type of body He will have, except in power and glory. I also believe Christ "came" in judgment upon Jerusalem in AD 70. We could go on all day about the merits of preterism and neither of us would convince the other. You do not believe what we Preterists present to be factual, and I do not believe the "futurist" view to be valid (except that we agree in the Lord's return).

 

[asterisktom]

I didn't know about the different views you mentioned. I also think that the view Ed Stevens promotes is the correct one.

I noticed that I was not quite clear on stating that second view. I should add that these resurrections and transformations happened to both dead and living at that time. All Christians from that time onward have their transformation after they die.

 

[Lodic]

I noticed that I was not quite clear on stating that second view. I should add that these resurrections and transformations happened to both dead and living at that time. All Christiand from that time onward have their transformation after they die.

That makes sense. Thank you.

 

[Yeshua1]

That makes sense. Thank you.

We MUST though hold to the physical bodily resurrection, not just a "spiritual" one!

 

[Lodic]

We MUST though hold to the physical bodily resurrection, not just a "spiritual" one!

Help me understand this. When people die now, their souls go to Heaven. Does everyone get a new physical body when Jesus comes again?

 

[asterisktom]

We MUST though hold to the physical bodily resurrection, not just a "spiritual" one!

Please provide a verse for this "physical bodily resurrection" for us. Thank you.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Hope that you don't become a preterist. Then you will really get the insults.

Since I am a partial preterist (the events described in the Olivet discourse occured at the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD), I don't know why you have spasmodically leaped to the false conclusion that I am not because I disagree with you on a fundamental issue of Christ's incarnation.

I'm done here.

Can't deal with it?

 

[Baptist Believer]

Please provide a verse for this "physical bodily resurrection" for us. Thank you.

Luke 24:39-43
See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; and He took it and ate it before them.

John 20:27-28
Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!

Beyond those plain verses, each gospel testifies to an empty tomb and the enemies of Christ cannot produce the body of Jesus.

But you already claim to believe in the physical resurrection. Has your faith suddenly left you? If not, what's the point of demanding "a verse"?

 

[Baptist Believer]

When people die now, their souls go to Heaven.

We don't actually see that terminology in scripture. It is certainly possible, but Jesus describes the intermediate state as a "dwelling place" (John 14:2) that is in the presence of Jesus. To the repentant thief on the cross, He describes it as Paradise (Luke 23:43). Paul describes his experience of temporarily entering into Paradise (2 Corinthians 12:4), and the Tree of Life is described in the "Paradise of God" in Revelation 2:7, before the Tree of Life becomes available to all persons (Revelation 22:3) who remain when the heavens and earth are united at the end of the age.

At some point, the dead will be raised and all humankind will be rejoined with their bodies. Some will be destroyed in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:12-15; 21:8) and the righteous will reign with Christ forever (Revelation 22:5)

 

[tyndale1946]

Luke 24:39-43
See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; and He took it and ate it before them.

John 20:27-28
Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!

Beyond those plain verses, each gospel testifies to an empty tomb and no one can produce the body of Jesus.

But you already claim to believe in the physical resurrection. Has your faith suddenly left you? If not, what's the point of demanding "a verse"?

Those are ALL outstanding verses but would someone please explain this one?... Brother Glen

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[asterisktom]

Those are ALL outstanding verses but would someone please explain this one?... Brother Glen

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

That is a tall order! What aspect especially are we looking at?

BTW the "rudiments" of Col. 2:8 are the very "elements" that dissolve in 2 Pet. 3:10.

EDIT:
Oops. Because I had BB on ignore I didn't see the quote in your post. So I didn't know to whom you were addressing the comment.

 

[asterisktom]

Beyond those plain verses, each gospel testifies to an empty tomb and the enemies of Christ cannot produce the body of Jesus.

But you already claim to believe in the physical resurrection. Has your faith suddenly left you? If not, what's the point of demanding "a verse"?

BB, I had you on "ignore" because you are rude ("Has my faith left me" indeed) and because you do not read my posts carefully enough. I know this is so since you apparently did not see that I made a distinction between the resurrection of Christ and the resurrection of believers.

Whether you agree with me or not is not the issue. A person discussing with someone else ought to be able and/or willing to remember that other person's view.

This is why you are on my ignore list - the only one on it. I really don't like doing it. But I hate having to waste time in correcting people who (I think) are just reading my posts for ammo, not content.

For the record, (in this thread) I was asked by Biblicist:

"You do believe what was resurrected from the grave was a material body of flesh and bones, correct?"

And I answered:

"Most definitely. Otherwise our faith is in vain."

I see you have quite a few posts on this board, so you know better than to comment on a comment without having read the antecedents.