Consequences of the Warning Passages in Hebrews

[swaimj]

J. Jump,

I don't know of a biblical basis for a distinction between salvation of the soul and salvation of the spirit. One cannot be saved without the other. Perhaps I am not understanding what you are saying.

 

[webdog]

Swaimj,

Hello. And there is actually a 3rd category - one which I'm espousing: that these are saved people, but the "severe judgment" is not about eternal life.

It certainly is true that the churches these days have many people attending who do not know the Lord. But this 3rd possibility is certainly one to consider.

FA

Going, going, GONE! He hit it outa here!

Eph. 2:8-9 is as clear as can be. We are saved by God's grace through faith. Period. This says nothing of "continually" living by the Spirit, and the result of not doing so equalling never having been saved. Faith without works being "dead" is like a car without a battery being "dead". The fact remains it is still a car, not that it was never made in the first place.

 

[webdog]

J. Jump,

I don't know of a biblical basis for a distinction between salvation of the soul and salvation of the spirit. One cannot be saved without the other. Perhaps I am not understanding what you are saying.

Here we are in agreement. The Bible doesn't make the distinction. JJ believes in Millenial Exclusion for the believer, with those dying in an unrepentant state going to hell for the thousand years, to be reinstated at the conclusion. To me, this is as equally bad as Lordship Salvation, as both depend on our works and not on the finished blood of Christ.

 

[J. Jump]

I don't know of a biblical basis for a distinction between salvation of the soul and salvation of the spirit. One cannot be saved without the other. Perhaps I am not understanding what you are saying.

What we have to do is we have to go to the very beginning and look at what is going on when we talk about salvation. Unfortunately Christendom has equated salvation with one thing and that's going to heaven. So everytime salvation is mentioned or the gospel is mentioned most believe it to mean that believing on the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ is being discussed and that going to heaven is the result.

The first thing that we have to agree upon is that a person is a tri-part being. If that is disagreeable then it really isn't necessary to go any further.

Do you believe a person to be a tri-part being or a bi-part being?

 

[J. Jump]

To me, this is as equally bad as Lordship Salvation, as both depend on our works and not on the finished blood of Christ.

Webdog this statement shows that you don't have a complete understanding about what we believe, because Lordship salvation and this can not even be compared because they are talking about two different things.

You say that we are basing salvation on works like Lordship salvation, which is a misrepresenation of what we believe.

You see salvation as one event and we think salvation is separate for the body, soul and spirit. So you can't even compare what we believe to Lordship salvation because it's apples and oranges. We aren't talking about the same thing.

 

[swaimj]

Responding to several comments. First, Faith Alone, sorry but I think we were posting simultaneously, so I missed this comment earlier:

Hello. And there is actually a 3rd category - one which I'm espousing: that these are saved people, but the "severe judgment" is not about eternal life.

What does this "severe judgement" consist of? I am not familiar with this concept.

Webdog said

Eph. 2:8-9 is as clear as can be. We are saved by God's grace through faith. Period. This says nothing of "continually" living by the Spirit, and the result of not doing so equalling never having been saved. Faith without works being "dead" is like a car without a battery being "dead". The fact remains it is still a car, not that it was never made in the first place.

But Webdog, the passage goes on to say "We are created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God has before ordained that we should walk in them. The person who is saved by faith will live by faith and he must. It is pre-ordained that he do so.

J. Jump asked

Do you believe a person to be a tri-part being or a bi-part being?

I believe that man is tri-part.

 

[J. Jump]

I believe that man is tri-part.

Okay now we have a foundation we can work on.

Man is body, soul and spirit. So what we have to look at is what is salvation and what happens at salvation.

Christendom for a great many years now has said that when a person is "saved" meaning they accept Jesus (however you want to say it) and are going to heaven that they are saved both spiritually and soulically. The body will be saved after the resurection or at the rapture.

But the Bible doesn't speak of a person's spirit and soul being saved at the same time and in the same way or by the same method.

When Adam and Eve fell they died spiritually at that very moment. And from that point forward people are brought into this world with dead spirits.

However the body and the soul are both alive and well even though the spirit is dead.

When we are saved by grace through faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Acts 16:30-31, Romans 4) it is our dead spirit that is brought to life by the working of the Holy Spirit.

He brings us from death to life and from darkness to light.

At that point our alive spirit (light) is separated from our soul (still in darkness) as per Genesis 1 and Hebrews 4:12.

At the moment we believe in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, on our behalf a sinner then are spirits are saved.

A person is saved for eternity and is secure and can never lose this salvation, becuase they did nothing to gain it.

But Hebrews 10:39, I Peter 1:9 and James 1:21 tell us that the soul is in need of being saved. And that the salvation of the soul doesn't come until the end of the race.

The four Gospels are talking about the salvation of the soul. And the reason we can know this is becuase of context. Context tells us everything.

The context of spiritual salvation is grace through faith apart from works.

The context of soulical salvation is faith mixed with works as per James and many other instances in the NT.

So we see the Bible actually speaks with the same words, but has different meanings at different times depending on context. The word gospel as I am sure you are well aware simply means good news.

And there is good news to the spiritually dead and that is Christ died for them and shed His blood according to the Scriptures.

But there is also good news to the spiritually alive and that is Christ rose again the third day according to the Scriptures and that if we are found to be obedient, faithful, overcomers we will rule and reign with Him in His coming kingdom.

But on the flip side of that if we are found to be disobedient, unfaithful, non-overcomers we will not rule and reign with Him.

I know that is a very brief look and I have some wonderful resource material I can send you if you would like to take a deeper look into these matters with far more Scriptural detail. Just PM me if you are interested.

 

[J. Jump]

We are created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God has before ordained that we should walk in them. The person who is saved by faith will live by faith and he must. It is pre-ordained that he do so.

I would like to comment on this quote even though I know this is a conversation you were having with webdog. Webdog and I actually agree on spiritual salvation in that it is by God's grace alone by faith alone in the finished works of Christ alone.

You are correct in that the Ephesians passage does continue, but the key word in verse 10 is "should." We "should" live the Christian life after we are saved, but it doesn't mean we "will" live that way.

Here is where the rub comes. And most of Christendom falls into one of two camps on this issue. Either you can have salvation and then lose it becuase you are disobedient or if you are disobedient then you were never saved. Both of which Scripturally are incorrect.

The Biblical view is that we are saved apart from our works, but are saved to do works and if we don't then we will give an account and be held accountable for what we did and did not do.

We will receive a just recompense based on our works at the JSOC and for some it will not be a postive experience at all. And actually the Bible says the negative experience will be the norm rather than the exception unfortunately.

 

[swaimj]

J.Jump, the problem is that the text of Hebrews argues against your position. The text in Chapter 10 states clearly that just SHALL LIVE by faith. Then chapter 11 gives examples of people who lived by faith. I don't see how you can miss this and I don't see why you deny it. You are discarding the clear teacing of an extended passage in favor of a synthetic theology that you string together by taking various verses out of context.

 

[swaimj]

Sorry, I missed you first post, J. Jump. You said:

Man is body, soul and spirit. So what we have to look at is what is salvation and what happens at salvation.

There is no biblical proof for this statement. However, this opens a whole new topic that needs another thread and, if it's opened, I don't plan to participate on it. Sorry, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

 

[J. Jump]

There is no biblical proof for this statement.

Okay how can you say you believe man to be a tri-part being and then turn right around and deny that man is body, soul and spirit.

And yes there is Biblical support for the statement. Hebrews 4:12 is just a starter. You can also look at I Th 5:23 which says: Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

That right there is enough.

But again how can you agree that we are tri-part beings and then deny that the Bible teaches body, soul and spirit? That is odd to say the least

 

[J. Jump]

J.Jump, the problem is that the text of Hebrews argues against your position. The text in Chapter 10 states clearly that just SHALL LIVE by faith.

Brother you are IMO misreading what live means here. This is a quote of an OT verse as I am sure you are well aware and the context is not one of lifestlye, but one that says that the just will live (not die) by faith.

The arrangement of the OT passage and therefore the NT passages should be arranged to read that by faith the just shall live. Again the context is not the lifestyle of a believer, but that the faith of the just will cause the person to live and not die.

It is speaking of a working faith that has to do with the saving of the soul Hebrews 10:39, not the saving of the spirit.

 

[swaimj]

Okay how can you say you believe man to be a tri-part being and then turn right around and deny that man is body, soul and spirit.

Sorry, J.Jump. I went back to see what I typed and I mis-typed. I believe that man is bi-part. I believe that man has a material aspect and an immaterial aspect. I used hold the tri-part view and I was taught it growing up and in Bible college. Now I simply see no evidence for it. Other verses speak of the man's heart, soul, and mind. If I took the Hebrews and Thess passages and added heart and mind to them, I would have five parts to man. It gets kind of silly after a while. I think the biblical writers are using varying terms to speak of the same thing.

 

[swaimj]

Again the context is not the lifestyle of a believer, but that the faith of the just will cause the person to live and not die.

If you look just at the life of Abraham as given in Hebrews 11 it is evident that Abraham lived by faith. He obeyed by faith. He was empowered by faith. His faith was tested and he passed the test. He passed his faith on to his children. And, in chapter 11, the writer says "Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. The scriptures say elsewhere "Whatever is not of faith is sin". How can you conclude that faith is not necessarily our lifestyle? Faith is the continuing mark of the believer. And...AND...faith is a mark of godliness because it is a quality of God who is FAITHful.

 

[J. Jump]

Sorry, J.Jump. I went back to see what I typed and I mis-typed.

Well now it makes more sense. I don't see how there is anyway someone can say they believe in a tri-part man and then say what you said

With that being said though I agree with this statement:

I think the biblical writers are using varying terms to speak of the same thing.

They are. They use different terms to talk about the three parts of man body, soul and spirit.

And again in my opinion if one holds to a bi-part belief there is only one thing that they can believe in when it comes to salvation and that is a works based salvation. There is just no other way to reconcile salvation, because the Bible speaks of salvation apart from works and then it also speaks of salvation with works. So if it is all the same salvation of the immaterial being then it is based on faith and works, which makes Scripture a lie.

 

[J. Jump]

If you look just at the life of Abraham as given in Hebrews 11 it is evident that Abraham lived by faith. He obeyed by faith. He was empowered by faith. His faith was tested and he passed the test.

I agree wholeheartedly, but that doesn't prove your point that all Christians will live faithful lives.

He passed his faith on to his children. And, in chapter 11, the writer says "Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God.

Again I agree, but again this doesn't prove what you are trying to say. Every time you or I sin we are acting in unbelief and are therefore not pleasing to God. Or do you believe that we are obedient 100% of the time?

The scriptures say elsewhere "Whatever is not of faith is sin". How can you conclude that faith is not necessarily our lifestyle?

I didn't say faith doesn't have anything to do with our lifestyle. I said the verse that you are using to prove your point is not in the context that you want it to be in and therefore does not prove your point at all.

Faith "should" be a part of our lifestyle at all times. But that doesn't mean that it is.

Faith is the continuing mark of the believer.

Again I agree. So what does that mean when you and I sin and are acting in unbelief? Are we unsaved until we are acting in faith? Do we go in and out of salvation?

A lack of faith is the continuing mark of an unbeliever not necessarily an eternally damned person.

There is a lack of faith and consequences for the unsaved and then there is faith or a lack there of for the saved and consequences.

And...AND...faith is a mark of godliness because it is a quality of God who is FAITHful.

Again I agree, but that once again does not prove that all Christians will be obedient, faithful, overcomers. There's just no Biblical support for that notion. At least to date no one has been able to show that, but if you have support by all means I will entertain it.

 

[David Michael Harris]

Hi David;

While Salvation is a commitment it's one that has it's up's and down's. Sure we sin and sometimes drift away, but we have the Good Shepard who will come after us and correct us if necessary. If we endure this correction we are His forever more if we do not endure the correction we were never really His to begin with. The difference is some only think they are saved and the ones who are, are fully commited.

Some believe they can do as they like once saved but these aren't fully commited. When you give up all for God in this commitment you have nothing to turn back to. To me Christ is a necessity just as the food we eat or air we breathe. We cannot live with out Him. We all need to make Christ number 1 in our lives.
MB

Salvation is a act of Grace. God saves us no matter what we make of our Calling. Otherwise Grace would cease to be Grace. That's my opinion.

The Gifts and Calling of God are irrevocable. God does not make a mistake.

David

 

[J. Jump]

God saves us no matter what we make of our Calling.

Exactly! We can realize our calling or we can fall short of our calling just as the children of Israel did in the wilderness, but even if we fall short of our calling that doesn't mean we weren't saved in the first place.

 

[David Michael Harris]

Exactly! We can realize our calling or we can fall short of our calling just as the children of Israel did in the wilderness, but even if we fall short of our calling that doesn't mean we weren't saved in the first place.

Only one is lost, and I pray for him too.

If God calls you to Glory, to Glory you will go.

You cannot lose Salvation. It would make God not Soveriegn.


David

 

[J. Jump]

Only one is lost, and I pray for him too.

If God calls you to Glory, to Glory you will go.

Not sure what you mean here.

You cannot lose Salvation.

That is absolutely true if you are speaking of the salvation of the spirit. However there are those that will never realize their salvation of their souls depsite having started down that path.