"Devotion" to Mary...

[Zenas]

I looked up "venerate" on Dictionary.com because it's a common Catholic term but not one that is used a lot in regular life. Here's what it says:

to regard or treat with reverence; revere.
Origin:
1615–25; < L venerātus, ptp. of venerārī to solicit the goodwill of (a god), worship, revere, v. deriv. of vener-, s. of venus, presumably in its original sense “desire”; see Venus )

Some of the synonyms are idolize, worship, adore.

Venerate, transitive verb. "To regard with respect, reverence or heartfelt deference." American Heritage Dictionary.

I do not reverence, idolize, worship or adore Mary. She was a human woman - a sinner just like me. Yes, I think it's wonderful that she was so blessed as to carry the human body of the Savior, but that doesn't mean she's worthy of worship or adoration. I reserve that for God alone.

No one in this thread, least of all me, has suggested that Mary is worthy of worship or adoration, which is the same thing. I too reserve worship and adoration for God alone. Incidentally, for another thread it would be interesting to see just how you came to regard the Mother of God as a sinner.

Show me the Scripture where we are to "venerate" anyone other than God.

Venerate is not a word that is used in scripture, but we see several examples of people paying high honor to Peter and Paul without any objection on their part. Acts 5:15; 19:12.

Yes it does. Prayer is given to God only. Mary cannot hear our prayers. She's not omniscient so we'd have to say our prayers out loud - but why go to her when we have ONE mediator between God and man - Jesus Christ? We don't need to go to anyone else who's dead and cannot do anything for us (can you show me where the dead do anything for those on earth?). We go to God alone.

So you're saying that although Mary is not omniscient she has really good hearing. As for the dead doing anything for those on earth, I would point you to Hebrews 12:1. According to Billy Graham they are cheering us on. I tend to agree.

This is asking how do we know that only God is omnipresent. Can you show me where in Scripture someone else was in more than one place? Where anyone knew what was going on elsewhere without direct revelation from God?

Can you show me in scripture where the earth is round, rotates around its polar axis and revolves around the sun? Significantly, scripture doesn't say that these powers are reserved only for God and when I get to Heaven I fully expect to have them. I'm sorry you have such a pedestrian view of life in Heaven.

 

[Revmitchell]

As for the dead doing anything for those on earth, I would point you to Hebrews 12:1. According to Billy Graham they are cheering us on. I tend to agree.

Very poor interpretation of this passage.The author is speaking of their testimony of their lives. Their example.

 

[annsni]

Incidentally, for another thread it would be interesting to see just how you came to regard the Mother of God as a sinner.

Sinners need a Savior. Read Luke 1:46-47. What does Romans 3:23 tell us. ALL have sinned. There are no exceptions. There were righteous men and women of God but they were still sinners. Not one human being, save Jesus Christ, who was sinless.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

...Can you show me in scripture where the earth is round, ...

It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, ....

 

[Alive in Christ]

Zenus...

"Incidentally, for another thread it would be interesting to see just how you came to regard the Mother of God as a sinner"

1st, Mary has no title the "Mother of God". God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit all existed from eternity past. An eternal being has no mother.

She was the one whom God used to bring Christ into this world.

2ndly, Mary confessed her sinful status when she confessed that she "rejoiced" in "God my Savior".

 

[Zenas]

It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, ....

Good catch, Bro. Curtis. :applause:

 

[Marcia]

Zenas: We don't know how they find out but we certainly can assume they know it on their own. Scripture says nothing to the contrary, and we know angels are powerful beings. The logical conclusion is that they do know it on their own. Only those who, without scriptural foundation, want to deny that angels could be aware of the thoughts and hearts of men would try to find a way to explain that angels are not really capable of kowing our thoughts.

Even if they know it on their own, and we cannot assume that, this has nothing to do with assuming that people in heaven know the same things as the angels.

All right, we know saints in Heaven are like angels in that they don't marry and they are immortal. Jesus says they are like the angels, but let's draw the line at these two similarities. To do more might lend credence to your theory that saints in Heaven have no power to perceive what is happening on earth. And we wouldn't want to allow for that possibility, would we?
Hebrews 12:22: "But you have come to Mount Zion . . . ." Sure sounds like saints on earth to me. Incidentally at least one prominent Baptist theologian agrees with me on this point

I disagree with the interpretation you are giving to Heb. 12. Please read the whole book of Hebrews and read Heb. 12 in context of that.

 

[Matt Black]

The only one who can hear prayers is God.

So if I stand next to you and pray aloud, you can't hear me? If I ask you to pray for me, you can't hear me?

 

[rdwhite]

[KJV] I Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

[Johnv]

It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, ....

That scripture doesn't support the concept of a round earth. The Hebrew word here is "chuwg", which is a flat disc (as opposed to the word "duwr", which the is the hebrew word for sphere).

If not taken in context, that verse could actually be used to support the idea of a flat earth. In fact, that verse is used by some members of the "Flat Earth Society" to assert their claim that the earth is flat.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The thing with this topic is that it bothers me on several levels. 1) My family and I are always arguing about it. 2) I wonder how Greek the Church had become in a short period of time. It seems that much of what all classical Churches believe about Mary is reliant on what they believe about Jesus. As gentile numbers out paced that of their Jewish counterparts it seems that the Greek way of logic and thinking became entrenched in the Church. I put up as an example their views of Mary. Scripture does not say much about Mary apart from her total obedience to the will of God which is uncommon in the Scriptures. Abraham was only able to sacrifice Isaac after many years of relationship with God and slowly learning to trust him. Mary was quite the young woman to be so obedient despite the cost. Also we have this verse

26When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," 27and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home. - John 19:26

This verse is used by Catholics often to show how the Catholic Church is to view Mary. That the Apostle John is representative of the Church in this discource. I often wonder why Jesus didn't give this responsibility to his siblings since that was the Jewish way and Jesus was certainly Jewish in his upbringing. Why John? We know that John moved to Turkey and assume that Mary followed him. Interestingly enough all the classical churches (Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic) have a similar view traditionally about what happened then. Mary died and was ressurected and taken to heaven receiving the promise right away. But there are no writings that show this. The earliest document I find is a Gothic liturgy. However, on the classic view of Mary it seems to be Greek philosophy that determines the doctrine on it in each of the affor mentioned churches. That Mary was a virgin at conseption and birth was an early fight that we see reflected in Tertullian's writings in the 2nd Century and supported by Jerome. Jesus could not have been just a man. Yet somehow in Greek thought this must also give certainty to her purpetual virginity. The original statement was about Jesus but in Greek philosophy and reason the second follows. Jerome further says that he goes so far as to say that Joseph kept his virginity out of respect for Mary. The next debate was if Jesus was equal with God and the earliest writing to combat the opponents to Jesus divinity was (in my reading) John Cassian who states that Mary had to be Theotokos because to say that she was Christokos lessened the divinity of Jesus. This argument was about Jesus' divinity! Did this view necissarily pave way to veneration? I'm not certain. But what else did Greek thought influence Christian faith? Finally, do we err when we "americanize" Christianity? I mean I often wonder at the song "I'm in the Lord's Army" compiled from a world war 2 recruiting song. Or how we commercialize the faith by 40 days of everything or selling crystal cross with the Lords prayer inside. How has our american world view shaped the Christian faith? Have we gone to the extent that the Greek world view did? And as I see emotional appeals and expensive entertainment that happens in worship service I wonder have we lost the essence of Jesus? His Jewishness. Will we recognize him when he returns or have we made an idol of him. This is how it bothers me on these levels.

 

[webdog]

So if I stand next to you and pray aloud, you can't hear me? If I ask you to pray for me, you can't hear me?

Non sequitur...I'm not dead.

 

[DHK]

The thing with this topic is that it bothers me on several levels. 1) My family and I are always arguing about it. 2) I wonder how Greek the Church had become in a short period of time. It seems that much of what all classical Churches believe about Mary is reliant on what they believe about Jesus. As gentile numbers out paced that of their Jewish counterparts it seems that the Greek way of logic and thinking became entrenched in the Church.

And the truth comes out that you can make the Bible say anything you want it to say when you take an allegorical approach to it, which is what has been done in the majority of your post above. When the RCC allegorizes, for example, Eve as a type of Mary, then it leads into a variety of all kinds of heresy. The Bible wasn't meant to be allegorized and cut up like chopped liver. Yet that seems to be the RCC approach to the Word of God.

 

[Matt Black]

Non sequitur...I'm not dead.

In what way are Christians who have departed this mortal flesh dead? Same question, I guess, to you as to DHK - do you believe in soul sleep or do you believe that Christians who have departed this world are alive with Christ in Heaven right now?

 

[webdog]

In what way are Christians who have departed this mortal flesh dead? Same question, I guess, to you as to DHK - do you believe in soul sleep or do you believe that Christians who have departed this world are alive with Christ in Heaven right now?

You say those who die and move on can hear us here on earth...the burden of proof lies on you.

I don't believe in soul sleep, but I also don't believe those alive can communicate with those that are dead. I recall those people being put to death under the OT Law, so I'm pretty confident my position is biblical.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

And the truth comes out that you can make the Bible say anything you want it to say when you take an allegorical approach to it, which is what has been done in the majority of your post above. When the RCC allegorizes, for example, Eve as a type of Mary, then it leads into a variety of all kinds of heresy. The Bible wasn't meant to be allegorized and cut up like chopped liver. Yet that seems to be the RCC approach to the Word of God.

I haven't made the bible say anything in my post. I did express consern over how Christianity was seemingly over taken by a Greek world view and gave Mary as a case in point. And I wondered beyond that how Americanizing Christianity may have the same effect. Though I do understand your point about allegory yet there are parts in the bible that must be taken that way.

 

[Matt Black]

I would say that it depends in what way they are dead. Those who died in the OT went to Sheol; what about those who (physically) die in the faith of Christ under the NT?

 

[annsni]

In what way are Christians who have departed this mortal flesh dead? Same question, I guess, to you as to DHK - do you believe in soul sleep or do you believe that Christians who have departed this world are alive with Christ in Heaven right now?

See but they're with Christ in heaven - not standing next to you. I can scream all I want but my friends in Italy won't hear me, will they? It is because they are not hear and do not have the ability to hear me right here (and we're not bringing in technology since there's no internet or cell phones in heaven). In the same way, heaven is not here next to me. God is able to hear my prayers in His omnipotence and omnipresence - but no other creature in heaven or on earth has that ability.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

See but they're with Christ in heaven - not standing next to you. I can scream all I want but my friends in Italy won't hear me, will they? It is because they are not hear and do not have the ability to hear me right here (and we're not bringing in technology since there's no internet or cell phones in heaven). In the same way, heaven is not here next to me. God is able to hear my prayers in His omnipotence and omnipresence - but no other creature in heaven or on earth has that ability.

Are you saying Heaven is a physical place? That I can get to if I travel far enough? Or is it a higher level of existance in which case location may not matter a whit.

 

[webdog]

Originally Posted by Matt Black
So if I stand next to you and pray aloud, you can't hear me? If I ask you to pray for me, you can't hear me?

Forgot to add, all prayer is not "aloud". My friends can't hear me talking to them in my head...God can hear my inaudible prayer. Mary can't, and "praying" involves not only audible, but inaudible.