Did Christ die two deaths?

[Reynolds]

This thread is a perfect example of why this forum can become so annoying. People on here make up their own theology. Use terms in ways theologians will not use them. They then act like I am crazy for using a term in the way that almost any seminary level systematic Theology text defines it. Typical B.B.

 

[asterisktom]

This thread is a perfect example of why this forum can become so annoying. People on here make up their own theology. Use terms in ways theologians will not use them. They then act like I am crazy for using a term in the way that almost any seminary level systematic Theology text defines it. Typical B.B.

Maybe you would be less annoyed if you would get your theology from the Bible instead of from theologians' interpretations of the Bible.

 

[asterisktom]

I did answer them. Jesus maintained at all times His deity. That answers your posts.
You have yet to define for me what is your definition of spiritual death.

This makes no sense. According to you Jesus, having died spiritually and physical, still retains deity. How? And how can He take up His life when He basically had nothing from which to work?

Physical death is when you have no spirit within you. Not possible with God, for humans it happens to those who have lost their opportunity for God's gracious influence. Several terms are used for these unfortunates in Scripture, "twice dead", apostate, etc.

 

[Piper]

How is Mac wrong? The accepted definition of spiritual death is separation from God. Do you use a different definition of spiritual death or do you contend Jesus did not experience separation from His Father?

Show me one verse that calls it Spiritual Death. I mean, what Jesus experienced, specifically.

 

[37818]

IMHO

Because of becoming sin, he gave his life a ransom. He did not die before he died. He breathed his last by dismissing the spirit of himself, into the hands of the Father.

IMHO

Christ died. Christ was dead three days. Christ was raised out of the dead, in incorruptible body. No more to see corruption neither death Acts 13:34 Rom 6:9.

You are not hearing or understanding. That word translated "life" for ransom is the word for soul. Mark 10:45. So when do you think sins were paid? Before or after "Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished?".

 

[37818]

Spiritual Death

That term is an extra Biblical term.

 

[Reynolds]

Maybe you would be less annoyed if you would get your theology from the Bible instead of from theologians' interpretations of the Bible.

"Spiritual Death" is a theological term, not directly found in Scripture, that is used to explain a theological concept. It would help if you knew the terms definition. You accused me of having a strange, minority view of it's definition. I demonstrated to you that I am using the proper definition and accepted definition. You have yet to provide am alternate definition from a theological text. The Bible does not define the term because the term does not appear in The Bible, unless some paraphrase " translation" has it somewhere.
You misuse a term and then accuse me of ignorance. Typical B.B. crap, as of late.

 

[Van]

The distinction being made that there is only one death for the payment for our sins. Mark 10:45, ". . . For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his | soul | a ransom for many. . . ." Hebrews 10:10.
The Greek word τετελεσται
and it's grammar only occurs twice, with the understood meaning, paid in full.

Not sure where "to give his /soul/ a ransom for many" came from. The NASB reads: By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.

Ditto for Mark 10:45, which reads Mar 10:45
“For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.”

Thus there is no actual support for Christ having a human spirit/soul, but rather that He gave up physical life on the cross as the sacrifice (the shedding of blood) as a ransom for all.

 

[asterisktom]

"Spiritual Death" is a theological term, not directly found in Scripture, that is used to explain a theological concept. It would help if you knew the terms definition. You accused me of having a strange, minority view of it's definition. I demonstrated to you that I am using the proper definition and accepted definition. You have yet to provide am alternate definition from a theological text. The Bible does not define the term because the term does not appear in The Bible, unless some paraphrase " translation" has it somewhere.
You misuse a term and then accuse me of ignorance. Typical B.B. crap, as of late.

You are getting peeved for no reason. We disagree, so what?

I never accused you of having a "minority view". Nor of being "ignorant".

There can be no "proper definition" for an improper concept - spiritual death, as in spiritual death of Christ. This is like asking for a theological definition for, say, "apostolic succession". I am sure some theologian somewhere has defined that nicely too.

I get it. For you theological authorities figure higher than what the Bible actually says. FWIW I do have a BA in Bible, I am published, studied Greek for many years. But - for the purpose of this thread - what any one says about spiritual death is unimportant to what we find from the Bible.

And that is what you do not respond to.

 

[37818]

Not sure where "to give his /soul/ a ransom for many" came from. The NASB reads: By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.

Ditto for Mark 10:45, which reads Mar 10:45
“For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.”

Thus there is no actual support for Christ having a human spirit/soul, but rather that He gave up physical life on the cross as the sacrifice (the shedding of blood) as a ransom for all.

@Van
Because of the common false teaching of the immortality of the soul, it is the underlying reason the word soul is translated as "life" when it's death is referred to.
Re: Hebrews 10:10 is about being a once for all offering of His boby.

 

[percho]

You are not hearing or understanding. That word translated "life" for ransom is the word for soul. Mark 10:45. So when do you think sins were paid? Before or after "Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished?".

Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Gen 2:17 YLT and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

Question

Soul - Does, dying dost die, equal, shall die, of the soul?

Acts 2:31 YLT having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

Question at what precise moment do you think the soul of Christ was considered to be, to hades?

I believe from the word of God the moment the spirit of Christ departed Christ to the hands of the Father the soul of Christ was to hades, the realm of the dead, and our sins were redeemed.

The correct translation of Lev 17:11

Darby

for the soul of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the soul.

IMHO What makes soul, living, in the blood is Spirit from God. That which Christ committed into the hands of the Father.

 

[37818]

Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Gen 2:17 YLT and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

Question

Soul - Does, dying dost die, equal, shall die, of the soul?

Acts 2:31 YLT having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

Question at what precise moment do you think the soul of Christ was considered to be, to hades?

I believe from the word of God the moment the spirit of Christ departed Christ to the hands of the Father the soul of Christ was to hades, the realm of the dead, and our sins were redeemed.

The correct translation of Lev 17:11

Darby

for the soul of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the soul.

IMHO What makes soul, living, in the blood is Spirit from God. That which Christ committed into the hands of the Father.

Let us look at what Jesus explained.
Matthew 10:28, ". . . And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: . . ." When the body dies it does not mean the soul died. [Hades]
Matthew 10:28, ". . . but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. . . ." Meaning that both the body and soul dies in hell, meaning the lake of fire.

 

[AustinC]

Let us look at what Jesus explained.
Matthew 10:28, ". . . And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: . . ." When the body dies it does not mean the soul died. [Hades]
Matthew 10:28, ". . . but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. . . ." Meaning that both the body and soul dies in hell, meaning the lake of fire.

Are you teaching annihilationism?

 

[37818]

Are you teaching annihilationism?

No. You do not read or listen.

Issues.
The soul is mortal. [Ezekiel 18:4]
God is omnipresent.
The lost dead souls suffer forever.
What never dies is called their worm.
[Mark 9:48]
[Mark 10:45, Mark 15:34, Psalms 22:6]

 

[percho]

1 Cor 15:26 ἔσχατος ἐχθρὸς καταργεῖται ὁ θάνατος·
Rev 20:14 καὶ ὁ θάνατος καὶ ὁ ᾅδης ἐβλήθησαν εἰς τὴν λίμνην τοῦ πυρός οὗτος ἐστιν ὁ δεύτερός θάνατος Rev
Rev 21:4 καὶ ἐξαλείψει ὁ Θεὸς πᾶν δάκρυον ἀπὸ τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν αὐτῶν καὶ ὁ θάνατος οὐκ ἔσται ἔτι οὔτε πένθος οὔτε κραυγὴ οὔτε πόνος οὐκ ἔσται ἔτι ὅτι τὰ πρῶτα ἀπῆλθον


Is that the one or two of which Christ died? When?

 

[37818]

Is that the one or two of which Christ died? When?

Christ was buried because of both deaths, Isaiah 53:9, ". . . with the rich in his *death; . . ." *Hebrew deaths.

His soul, Mark 15:34, before John 19:28. His body, Luke 23:46.

 

[5 point Gillinist]

It sounds like Reynolds believes/agrees with us on the matter, it boils down to a difference in the definition of the term "spiritual death."

 

[Van]

@Van
Because of the common false teaching of the immortality of the soul, it is the underlying reason the word soul is translated as "life" when it's death is referred to.
Re: Hebrews 10:10 is about being a once for all offering of His boby.

Christ offered His body, which refers to offering His physical life. The human soul is not immortal as God can destroy both the body and the soul. The reason the Greek word is translated "life" is the word has the meaning of the "breath of life" so if breathing life, and not breathing death.

 

[37818]

Christ offered His body, which refers to offering His physical life. The human soul is not immortal as God can destroy both the body and the soul. The reason the Greek word is translated "life" is the word has the meaning of the "breath of life" so if breathing life, and not breathing death.

We agree His soul was not immortal when He offered His soul in His then mortal body. Isaiah 53:12, ". . . he hath poured out his soul unto death: . . ." Now I am persuaded that was accomplished when He was forsaken on the cross, Mark 15:34 and was already completed per John 19:28, ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." This was before His physical death, John 19:30.

 

[Van]

We agree His soul was not immortal when He offered His soul in His then mortal body. Isaiah 53:12, ". . . he hath poured out his soul unto death: . . ." Now I am persuaded that was accomplished when He was forsaken on the cross, Mark 15:34 and was already completed per John 19:28, ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." This was before His physical death, John 19:30.

We agree that the human soul is not immortal, but we disagree that Christ's soul was not immortal. The Spirit/Soul of Christ was the Second Person of the Trinity and thus eternal.