Did Christ die two deaths?

[37818]

We agree that the human soul is not immortal, but we disagree that Christ's soul was not immortal. The Spirit/Soul of Christ was the Second Person of the Trinity and thus eternal.

He never ceased being God, Hebrews 1:3. I agree He did not have two souls. If His soul did not become mortal in Him become flesh, how did His blood pay for our sins? Isaiah 53:10, " . . . thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, . . . ."

 

[Van]

He never ceased being God, Hebrews 1:3. I agree He did not have two souls. If His soul did not become mortal in Him become flesh, how did His blood pay for our sins? Isaiah 53:10, " . . . thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, . . . ."

He physically died, thus He gave Himself as a ransom for all.

 

[37818]

He physically died, thus He gave Himself as a ransom for all.

He physically died after it was "finished." John 19:30. John 19:28, ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." τετελεσται aka "It is finished"

 

[Piper]

We agree that the human soul is not immortal, but we disagree that Christ's soul was not immortal. The Spirit/Soul of Christ was the Second Person of the Trinity and thus eternal.

We don't agree.

"The soul endures the death of the body: is it, then, immortal? Yes and no. Scripture points to its immortality, but it is not so immortal that even God could not end the life of a soul. But it is immortal because it is the will of God that it be so. Only God has necessary immortality; he is the source of the immortality of every immortal creature (1 Tim. 6:16). The Bible does not present a clear statement of the human soul’s immortality, but there are general statements supporting immortality (Eccl. 3:11), especially in Scripture’s accounts of the resurrection of the dead, which includes both the lives of the wicked and the godly (e.g. John 5:20, 1 Cor. 15:49, Phil. 3:21, and 2 Tim. 4:8).

The soul could be said to be physically “simple” in that it does not consists of parts, as the body does, but possesses powers of intellect, will and others. The physical heart is distinct from the lungs and other bodily parts, and each plays a vital role in the life of the body, physical life. The soul does not have physical parts but consists in faculties such as reason, will, and the various emotions. It also has the operations of the memory and the conscience. However, in the present life the soul is intimately related with the brain; there is a wonderful and presently little-understood interaction and adaptation between the two. An injury to the brain leads to the inhibiting of the soul, and its healing or growth, as an infant becomes a child, affects the operation of the soul. The brain affects the soul by occurrences such as losing consciousness by injury or by the operation of an anesthetic, or an inability brought on by something like suffering cruelty in childhood. When the body is at rest, or immobile following a stroke, the soul can still be active in dreams, and other mental activity, which can have an input from the memory. The memory is wonderful, a storehouse of facts, and of skills. The intimacy of the connection of the brain and the consciousness is also seen by the fact that the soul commands the soul in repertoires of what have been called “basic acts,” acts which are immediately producible. If the eye is working properly, a person can see a tree when looking at the tree. She does not have to make preparations, to perform an act in order to bring about another act, like the moving of a hand to write a signature with a pen."

Paul Helm at Created Body and Soul - The Gospel Coalition

 

[percho]

Christ was buried because of both deaths, Isaiah 53:9, ". . . with the rich in his *death; . . ." *Hebrew deaths.

His soul, Mark 15:34, before John 19:28. His body, Luke 23:46.

What gives life to the flesh? What makes that made form the dust of the earth soul, living?

Fifty days after the resurrection of Christ, was the soul David left to Hades the realm of the dead and had the flesh of David seen corruption?

Where was the spirit of which had given life to both the soul David and the flesh of David, fifty days following the resurrection of Christ?

Acts 2:29-31 & 13:36

Did the demise of the soul David and the flesh of him take place simultaneously?

Demise
1 Death.
2 The end of existence or activity; termination

 

[percho]

Praise ye Jah! Praise, O my soul, Jehovah. I praise Jehovah during my life, I sing praise to my God while I exist. Trust not in princes -- in a son of man, For he hath no deliverance. His spirit goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, In that day have his thoughts perished. Ps 146: 1-4

and having cried with a loud voice, Jesus said, 'Father, to Thy hands I commit my spirit;' and these things having said, he breathed forth the spirit. Luke 23:46

for what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, did condemn the sin in the flesh, Rom 8:3
Heb 5:7-9 who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from (out of) death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience, and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him a cause of salvation age-during,
Gal 1:1
Paul, an apostle -- not from men, nor through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who did raise him out of the dead --


For, let this mind be in you that is also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God, but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made, and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross,

I wonder how empty, empty is?

Did Christ die for the sin of the world? How dead was he?

 

[37818]

What gives life to the flesh? What makes that made form the dust of the earth soul, living?

Genesis 2:7.
Ecclesiastes 12:7.
James 2:26.
Luke 23:46.

Ezekiel 18:4.
Romans 6:23.
Matthew 10:28.
Mark 9:48.

Fifty days after the resurrection of Christ, was the soul David left to Hades the realm of the dead and had the flesh of David seen corruption?

Acts of the Apostles 2:31-37.

Re:. John 19:28-30. What was finished? When was it finished?

@percho, you decide what you are going to believe.

1 Corinthians 15:12-17.

Isaiah 53:1-12.

 

[Van]

He physically died after it was "finished." John 19:30. John 19:28, ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." τετελεσται aka "It is finished"

I already addressed this issue, please respond to it.

 

[Van]

We don't agree.

"The soul endures the death of the body: is it, then, immortal? Yes and no. Scripture points to its immortality, but it is not so immortal that even God could not end the life of a soul. But it is immortal because it is the will of God that it be so. Only God has necessary immortality; he is the source of the immortality of every immortal creature (1 Tim. 6:16). The Bible does not present a clear statement of the human soul’s immortality, but there are general statements supporting immortality (Eccl. 3:11), especially in Scripture’s accounts of the resurrection of the dead, which includes both the lives of the wicked and the godly (e.g. John 5:20, 1 Cor. 15:49, Phil. 3:21, and 2 Tim. 4:8).

The soul could be said to be physically “simple” in that it does not consists of parts, as the body does, but possesses powers of intellect, will and others. The physical heart is distinct from the lungs and other bodily parts, and each plays a vital role in the life of the body, physical life. The soul does not have physical parts but consists in faculties such as reason, will, and the various emotions. It also has the operations of the memory and the conscience. However, in the present life the soul is intimately related with the brain; there is a wonderful and presently little-understood interaction and adaptation between the two. An injury to the brain leads to the inhibiting of the soul, and its healing or growth, as an infant becomes a child, affects the operation of the soul. The brain affects the soul by occurrences such as losing consciousness by injury or by the operation of an anesthetic, or an inability brought on by something like suffering cruelty in childhood. When the body is at rest, or immobile following a stroke, the soul can still be active in dreams, and other mental activity, which can have an input from the memory. The memory is wonderful, a storehouse of facts, and of skills. The intimacy of the connection of the brain and the consciousness is also seen by the fact that the soul commands the soul in repertoires of what have been called “basic acts,” acts which are immediately producible. If the eye is working properly, a person can see a tree when looking at the tree. She does not have to make preparations, to perform an act in order to bring about another act, like the moving of a hand to write a signature with a pen."

Paul Helm at Created Body and Soul - The Gospel Coalition

Yes, as I said, we do not agree, as the Biblical view is Christ's Spirit/Soul is immortal and never died in any sense.

Since our human soul is conceived in iniquity, as conceived is mortal, destined for destruction. Now, obviously, our human soul can be made immortal by God, but that is not the claim.

 

[37818]

I already addressed this issue, please respond to it.

I evidently missed your point.

 

[Van]

I evidently missed your point.

You responded to post 21 in your post 22, but did not address the last point concerning John 19:28.

 

[37818]

You responded to post 21 in your post 22, but did not address the last point concerning John 19:28.

Re: post #21

Since Jesus was God in the flesh, the orthodox view is that Christ's "soul" is the Second Person of the Trinity. When He gave His Spirit up, He physically died.

Several questions arise from the claim Jesus died twice. Do you mean a spiritual death, separation from God, and a physical death, the spirit leaves the body?

Do you equate "forsaken" with separation and thus "spiritual death?"

Problems, it is outside rational thought to claim God died or a person of the Trinity was separated from the other Two Persons.

Christ only had ONE spirit, not two.

Let us consider John 19:28:

After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, in order that the Scripture would be fulfilled, *said, “I am thirsty.”

Here "all things had been accomplished yet scripture still needed to be fulfilled. Thus "all things" may not address His pending physical death, and therefore His death once for all.

In other words it really does not mean what it says, in your reading of it "knowing that all things were now accomplished."

 

[Van]

Re: post #21

In other words it really does not mean what it says, in your reading of it "knowing that all things were now accomplished."

Was fulfilling scripture fulfilled when Jesus said "all things" Nope. Please address the argument!

 

[37818]

Was fulfilling scripture fulfilled when Jesus said "all things" Nope. Please address the argument!

I did. How did I not?

 

[Van]

I did. How did I not?

Non-responsive.

Was fulfilling scripture fulfilled when Jesus said "all things" Nope. Please address the argument!​

 

[37818]

Non-responsive.

Was fulfilling scripture fulfilled when Jesus said "all things" Nope. Please address the argument!​

Well you have how you want to understand τετελεσται and context.

 

[Van]

Well you have how you want to understand τετελεσται and context.

Yet another non-response!!

The actual answer is "all imaginable things" were not included in "all things" but only those Jesus had in mind, and His future physical death was not one of them.

 

[Piper]

Yet another non-response!!
Let us consider John 19:28:

After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, in order that the Scripture would be fulfilled, *said, “I am thirsty.”

Here "all things had been accomplished yet scripture still needed to be fulfilled. Thus "all things" may not address His pending physical death, and therefore His death once for all.

You consistently keep saying things like "Non response" or "you are not answering the question about John 19:28."

Well, I just copied your sectio0n, from post number 21, where you keep saying there is a question about John 19:28. THERE IS NO QUESTION, just your speculation.

Ask your question clearly.

btw, I see why they said "great, more vanology." You speculate on things that are not clear nor even clearly implied.

 

[Van]

You consistently keep saying things like "Non response" or "you are not answering the question about John 19:28."

Well, I just copied your sectio0n, from post number 21, where you keep saying there is a question about John 19:28. THERE IS NO QUESTION, just your speculation.

Ask your question clearly.

btw, I see why they said "great, more vanology." You speculate on things that are not clear nor even clearly implied.

I see you are yet another empty suit offering mindless twaddle rather than sound biblical comment. See post 77

 

[Piper]

Yet another non-response!!

The actual answer is "all imaginable things" were not included in "all things" but only those Jesus had in mind, and His future physical death was not one of them.

This is empty speculation.

There are many other texts that indicate that Jesus died once.

Hebrews 10:10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Rom 6:10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
Heb 10:12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
Heb 7:27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.