Did Jesus Really Die For Judas?

[Reformed1689]

But unsaved people never had Jesus Christ THE Saviour, tell them, that He was going to the cross to die for them, and personally give them the Bread and Wine that represents His Body and Blood on the cross! So, it is a VERY BIG point!

If he was even there...

 

[Silverhair]

@Reformed1689 :
No, He did not die for Judas, as the Scripture clearly tells us:

1) Judas was a devil ( John 6:70-71 ), meaning that he was not one of God's children, but was like those that the Lord described here:

" Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God."


2) Judas went to his own place ( Acts of the Apostles 1:15-20 ), which was prophesied of him in Psalms 41:9 and Psalms 109:5-8.
We also see in John 17:11-12, Judas was lost specifically to fulfill those Scriptures, and is called "the son of perdition".
In addition, in John 13:10-30 the Lord tells the 12 that they are clean, but not all of them:

" Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash [his] feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean." ( John 13:10-11 ).

"Clean" is the Bible's description for someone who is spiritually cleansed ( or purified, Titus 2:14, or "washed", Revelation 1:5 ) in the eyes of God by Jesus' blood...1 John 1:7-9, Psalms 51:2, Ezekiel 36:25-26, 1 Corinthians 6:11:

" And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

Whoever is washed, whoever is sanctified ( cleansed or purified ) is justified in the eyes of the Lord and are His elect.

Judas was not one of God's elect, or he would not have been lost, spiritually, per John 6:39...
But that he was given to the Lord Jesus physically, there can be no doubt per John 17:12.


3) Jesus said He only gave His life for the sheep ( Matthew 1:21, John 10:11, John 10:15 ).
Regardless of whether or not Judas was at the table ( which, according to Luke 22:21, he was there, and his hand was on the table with Him ), the Lord Jesus, again, only gave His life for the sheep.


Therefore, per Romans 9:22-24 and many others, I conclude that Judas was a vessel of wrath fitted to destruction,
and the Lord Jesus did not give His life for him, neither was Judas cleansed by His blood on the cross in the eyes of God.

He did not love the Lord, or he would never have betrayed Him.
He was never foreknown, predestinated, called, justified or glorified per Romans 8:28-30.
He was not reconciled to God by the death of His Son per Romans 5:10,
neither was he forgiven of all of His trespasses per Colossians 2:13-14.


To me, "The Judas Conundrum" is not a conundrum at all, once it is examined in the light of all that the Lord says about who Judas was, what he was intended to fulfill by God, and who ( and how special ) Christ's sheep are to Him.

Dave I only have one question for you, was Judas a sinner? Yes or No.

 

[Silverhair]

If he was even there...

So you are going to base your whole argument on the hope that Judas was not there. But you have no scripture that says he was not and we have scripture that puts him at the supper. Even Christ Jesus' own words show that. So it is just your theological view that requires this as you have no support in scripture for your view.

 

[Reformed1689]

So you are going to base your whole argument on the hope that Judas was not there. But you have no scripture that says he was not and we have scripture that puts him at the supper. Even Christ Jesus' own words show that. So it is just your theological view that requires this as you have no support in scripture for your view.

First, no, that is not what I base my whole argument on, apparently you have not read the entire thread. Second, since you have not read the entire thread, you don't know I already provided biblical evidence to suggest Judas was not at that part of the supper.

 

[Silverhair]

First, no, that is not what I base my whole argument on, apparently you have not read the entire thread. Second, since you have not read the entire thread, you don't know I already provided biblical evidence to suggest Judas was not at that part of the supper.

Yes I read the thread and what you call evidence does not rise to that level. Try again.

 

[Silverhair]

Second,You focus on one account of the last Supper and leave out others. It is highly debatable that Judas was even there for the bread and the cup. In John's account, as soon as Judas was shown to be the one that would betray Christ he left.

So, because you do not like the account by Luke you just ignore it.
Luk 22:14 When the hour had come, He sat down, and the twelve apostles with Him.
And you even ignore the words of Christ Jesus
Luk 22:21 But behold, the hand of My betrayer is with Me on the table.

But why do you focus on Johns' account as it leaves out a lot of details. You have latched onto one verse in the hope that it will support you.
Joh 13:27 Now after the piece of bread, Satan entered him. Then Jesus said to him, "What you do, do quickly."

But look at the context in John:
Joh 13:21 When Jesus had said these things, He was troubled in spirit, and testified and said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me."
Joh 13:22 Then the disciples looked at one another, perplexed about whom He spoke.
Joh 13:23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved.
Joh 13:24 Simon Peter therefore motioned to him to ask who it was of whom He spoke.
Joh 13:25 Then, leaning back on Jesus' breast, he said to Him, "Lord, who is it?"
Joh 13:26 Jesus answered, "It is he to whom I shall give a piece of bread when I have dipped it." And having dipped the bread, He gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
Joh 13:27 Now after the piece of bread, Satan entered him. Then Jesus said to him, "What you do, do quickly."
Joh 13:28 But no one at the table knew for what reason He said this to him.

Now what do we see in Luke:
Luk 22:21 But behold, the hand of My betrayer is with Me on the table.
Luk 22:22 And truly the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!"
Luk 22:23 Then they began to question among themselves, which of them it was who would do this thing.

The text shows that Judas was part of the group that Christ Jesus had His last meal with. So that argument is dealt with and Judas left after the bread & the wine. As for your argument that Christ Jesus only dies for His sheep:

HE DIED FOR

1Ti_2:6; Isa_53:6 all
Heb_2:9; 1Ti_4:10 every man
Joh_3:16-17 the world
1Jn_2:2 sins of the whole world
Rom_5:6 the ungodly
2Pe_2:1 false teachers
Mat_20:28 many
Joh_11:50-51 Israel
Eph_5:25 the Church
Gal_2:20 “me”

 

[SavedByGrace]

If he was even there...

Then all of this also applies to Judas

” He took the cup, gave thanks, and gave to THEM, saying, “ALL OF YOU drink it, for this is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many (THEM, ALL OF YOU) for the remission of sins" (Matthew 26:27-28)

"He took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave to THEM. THEY ALL DRANK of it. He said to them, “This is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for MANY (THEM. THEY ALL DRANK)" (Mark 14:23-24)

"Likewise, he took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is POURED OUT FOR YOU. But behold, the hand of him who betrays me is with me on the table (Judas). The Son of Man indeed goes, as it has been determined, but woe to that man through whom he is betrayed! (Judas)” They began to question among themselves, which of them it was who would do this thing" (Luke 22:20-23)

It is evident that Judas must have been present for the Lord's Supper, and even taken both the Bread and Wine.

Firstly, Jesus makes it very clear in Luke's Account, that Judas was still with them. Secondly, had Jesus not given the Bread and Wine to Judas, then surely the other Disciples would have commented on this, and would not have said, "which of them it was who would do this thing", as they would have known that it was Judas, if he did not take the Bread and Wine. Thridly, this means that Jesus Christ actually died for Judas, who did not go to heaven. Fourthly, it is also clear, that there are millions in hell for whom Jesus died. Fifthly, the TULI in TULIP are FALSE teachings!

 

[SavedByGrace]

I respect your opinion, but I don't share it.

Furthermore ( and with all due respect ), you telling me that I'm wrong carries about as much authority as me telling you the same.
To me, you and I are mere men and stand equally before God on any matter.

At the end of the day,
what you believe and teach, and what I believe and teach, are up for review by the Lord...
and He will judge between us when we see Him.

Good evening to you, and I wish you well, as always.

well, your response shows that you ignore what the Bible says on whether Judas actually did take the Lord's Supper, and the importance of what this is. You also ignore the fact that Reformed theologians like John Gill, John Calvin, Matthew Henry and A T Robertson, all clearly state that Judas was present, and did drink of the Cup, which represents Jesus' shed Blood, for the forgiveness of sins! These, my friend, are FACTS!

 

[Reformed1689]

well, your response shows that you ignore what the Bible says on whether Judas actually did take the Lord's Supper, and the importance of what this is. You also ignore the fact that Reformed theologians like John Gill, John Calvin, Matthew Henry and A T Robertson, all clearly state that Judas was present, and did drink of the Cup, which represents Jesus' shed Blood, for the forgiveness of sins! These, my friend, are FACTS!

Even if Judas was there that does not mean Jesus included him when he said you as evidenced in John 13

 

[SavedByGrace]

Even if Judas was there that does not mean Jesus included him when he said you as evidenced in John 13

Yet another strawman argument! There is nothing in the Gospel Accounts to even suggest that Jesus did not include Judas when He spoke to the Disciples. Your reasons are purely theological, because if you agree that Jesus did include Judas, then your whole theological system is down the pan! Show from John chapter 13, where it says that Judas was not present, and Jesus did not mean to include him? As I have already said, the language of the Gospel Accounts clearly shows that Judas did drink the Cup with the wine, that represents Jesus' death. If he did not, then the other 11 would not be questioning who it was to betray Jesus, because the fact that Jesus excluded Judas from the Lord's Supper, had He done so, would have already told them this! Another important point, why did Jesus not wait till Judas had left the room, which was not much later, and then give the Lord's Supper, which would have excluded Judas? The Account in Luke, who was a historian, is more detailed, and shows that Jesus not only gave all the 12 the Bread and Wine, and also clearly told all of them, that He was going to die for all their sins.

There is nothing to suggest that what I have said is not correct!

 

[AustinC]

Even in the Old Testament we see God determining who he would forgive.
There is no evidence that God forgave Judas. Thus, Judas sin was never atoned for.
With David, God reveals sin, David repents, God forgives.
2 Samuel 12:7,13 Nathan said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you out of the hand of Saul. David said to Nathan,

“I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die.

With Judas we do not see Judas repenting. We see him hating his own life for his betrayal. He never repents.
Remember that God is the cause of reconciliation and repentance is the effect. We see that in David. We don't see that in Judas.
Acts 1:17-19 For he was numbered among us and was allotted his share in this ministry.” (Now this man acquired a field with the reward of his wickedness, and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their own language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)

Judas died hopeless. David suffered the effects of his sin, but died with hope later in life.

Again, I ask, did the partaking in the Seder meal save Judas?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Even in the Old Testament we see God determining who he would forgive.
There is no evidence that God forgave Judas. Thus, Judas sin was never atoned for.
With David, God reveals sin, David repents, God forgives.
2 Samuel 12:7,13 Nathan said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you out of the hand of Saul. David said to Nathan,

“I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die.

With Judas we do not see Judas repenting. We see him hating his own life for his betrayal. He never repents.
Remember that God is the cause of reconciliation and repentance is the effect. We see that in David. We don't see that in Judas.
Acts 1:17-19 For he was numbered among us and was allotted his share in this ministry.” (Now this man acquired a field with the reward of his wickedness, and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their own language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)

Judas died hopeless. David suffered the effects of his sin, but died with hope later in life.

Again, I ask, did the partaking in the Seder meal save Judas?

you "reforomed" are so full of yourselves, that you suppose that the Lord actually agrees with your warped theology! UTTER rubbish. I have shown to those who want to be more BIBLICAL, and less, THEOLOGICAL, that Jesus Christ died for Judas, 100%!

 

[AustinC]

you "reforomed" are so full of yourselves, that you suppose that the Lord actually agrees with your warped theology! UTTER rubbish. I have shown to those who want to be more BIBLICAL, and less, THEOLOGICAL, that Jesus Christ died for Judas, 100%!

It amazes me that you think you have shown something factual and definitive.
sbg, is Judas definitively in heaven? He must be, if you are correct. In fact, if you are correct, every single human being must be on their way to heaven since, in your position, Jesus died to save all people.

You legalists are so full of yourself, that you suppose the Lord actually agrees with your warped theology. UTTER rubbish! I have shown to you that God has mercy on whom he wills and hardens whom he wills.

There is no evidence of Judas repentance.

 

[Revmitchell]

It shows that Jesus was not making all of his promises to all 12 in the Last Supper which is the SAME EVENT as the washing of the feet. That was at the start.

Ok I get what you are saying and for the most part I believe that your points are reasonable ( don’t confuse reasonable with agreement) but even if you are right in all of it, that fails to prove your point. It doesn’t say that Jesus did or did not die for Judas. That interpretation has to be imposed on that event.

That proper question is “Who did Jesus die for?” The answer is everyone. The scriptural support is verses like 2 Peter 3:9. Here is the thing, even if election is as our Reformed brothers claim, Jesus dying for everyone ( meaning salvation is available to all who believe) that doesn’t work in contradiction to the Reformed position.

While I believe the Reformed position is wrong I also believe it is reasonable to see it that way.

 

[37818]

This is laughable at best and ignoring all of what I said.

No. Making false a accusation does not show I ignored anything. The problem is, put simply, we do not understand the same truth of the word of God in the same way. Otherwise we could come to a common agreement.

There are (four, two are the same) three true accounts which record detail differently regarding what Jesus said regarding the cup.

 

[SavedByGrace]

It amazes me that you think you have shown something factual and definitive.
sbg, is Judas definitively in heaven? He must be, if you are correct. In fact, if you are correct, every single human being must be on their way to heaven since, in your position, Jesus died to save all people.

You legalists are so full of yourself, that you suppose the Lord actually agrees with your warped theology. UTTER rubbish! I have shown to you that God has mercy on whom he wills and hardens whom he wills.

There is no evidence of Judas repentance.

I never said that Judas either repented or is in heaven! This doesn't mean that Jesus didn't die for him, because this is VERY CLEARLY taught in the Bible

 

[robycop3]

Jesus gave Judas several opportunities to repent! he made it known to all the disciples that He would be betrayed by one of them, & that it'd be better for that man if he'd never been born.

And when the disciples asked which one would betray Him, He answered , in John 13:26, Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I shall give a piece of bread when I have dipped it.” And having dipped the bread, He gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. [/quote]

And after they'd finished the meal, Jesus told Judas, "Go, do what you must do quickly."

Now, why did Judas betray Jesus by showing the temple police who He was by kissing Him? Because Judas was a Zealot, & when he saw some of Jesus' miracles, he supposed correctly that Jesus was Messiah, but that He was going to overthrow the Romans with His power & free the Jews from their rule. When it became obvious Jesus was not gonna do that, Judas became disillusioned, and, insteada seeing who Jesus really is, he decided to eliminate Him somehow, & saw his chance was to have the Jewish religious leadership do it. The rest is history. judas didn't repent, of course. And insteada fervently praying for Jesus to forgive him, he had a pity party & hanged himself.

I believe Jesus WOULD have forgiven Judas had Judas earnestly repented & asked Jesus to forgive him, especially before he actually betrayed Him.

 

[Reformed1689]

Yet another strawman argument! There is nothing in the Gospel Accounts to even suggest that Jesus did not include Judas when He spoke to the Disciples.

Have you read John 13?

 

[Reformed1689]

It doesn’t say that Jesus did or did not die for Judas. That interpretation has to be imposed on that event.

I agree with you here. My point of this thread was that people use the passage to prove that Jesus did die for Judas, which, to your credit, you show it does not address the issue.

 

[AustinC]

I never said that Judas either repented or is in heaven! This doesn't mean that Jesus didn't die for him, because this is VERY CLEARLY taught in the Bible

First, you imagine it is clear and no doubt you think your idea is correct. Others show you that Jesus did not atone for Judas sin and you get all bent out of shape.
You cannot acknowledge that atonement means fully paid for. If Jesus fully paid for Judas sins then Judas was made perfect and holy by the blood of Christ. God would be casting a person, whose sins are fully paid for, into hell.
Do you teach that fully atoned persons are spending eternity in hell, even though God sees no sin due to the atoning sacrifice of Christ?