Differences... Regeneration/Conversion?

[Yelsew]

Probably not any more than it is safe to say that a doctor treats all of his patients for the same condition with the same levels of medication.

God meets us where we are, not where he wants us to be.

 

[Hardsheller]

So God is personally involved with every lost sinner who hears the gospel?

 

[Frogman]

Yelsew,
I didn't say you left out vs. 14 of Romans 10, but that you are over looking what it says.

Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Yelsew,
I didn't say you left out vs. 14 of Romans 10, but that you are over looking what it says.

Dallas

I understand what Romans 10:14 says, Paul is addressing the Roman believers explaining to them how their salvation came about. If it hadn't been for the hardness of the Jews heart, there would be no Roman believers. and this explanation begins Chapter 9 verse 1. So to understand what Paul is telling the Romans, one must begin there in order to have the context of this part of Paul's letter.

No it does not accuse the gentiles of being totally depraved, nor does it state that the gentiles must be regenerated prior to them being able to believe.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
So God is personally involved with every lost sinner who hears the gospel?

If you are setting up the scenario that God regenerates man before man can believe, your barking up the wrong tree! That boat don't float!

 

[Frogman]

How shall they call upon him in whom they have not believed?

This passage of scripture does not anywhere support the need of a gospel preacher except to point believers to the Messiah of God.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
How shall they call upon him in whom they have not believed?

This passage of scripture does not anywhere support the need of a gospel preacher except to point believers to the Messiah of God.

Bro. Dallas

The preacher is the one who brings the "word of God" to them so that they can believe. It is not "regeneration prior to belief", it is hearing the word of God that brings faith!

Before one can call on another, one must believe in the other. "He came unto his own and His own accepted him not!" Acceptance is belief.

 

[Sularis]

Yelsew I almost agree with you - but I believe there is such a thing as prevenient grace - pre-salvatory work and that this work is accomplished by the Word of God

Since the Word of God never returns void - one must make the assumption that

a) the purpose of the Word is to salvation
or
b) that the purpose of the Word is the pre-salvatory work whereby man is then enabled to choose
c) the purpose of the Word has nothing to do with salvation
d) the purpose of the Word has to do with post salvation life
e) both a and d
f) both b,d
g) a,b,d


I cannot argue for the case of a) since if the Word was for salvation and the Word always achieves its purpose - salvation cannot be the result of the hearing the Word of God

that eliminates a,e,g leaving b,c,d,f

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God

there goes c, leaving b,d,f with a strong case of proof for b, and possibly f

the Word of God is useful for doctrine, instruction, reproof... you know that verse that seems to argue for d, which simply put means f is the answer

God calls us, and by His Word/Spirit convicts/regenerates us to a recognition of the spiritual truth - whereby we must choose - and all too often people choose to not accept Christ - but for those who do choose Christ - the Word/Spirit is a Comforter and Teacher.

Free choice - and Election coincide and co-exist

It is necessary to achieve the sovereignty of God, in the fullest degree that no matter our free choice, His Will conquers all, save what He decides to let us have.

He has set limits so that we cannot choose the choices He would not have us choose, but that in the options He leaves us, even the options that go against His will, we still have the responsibility to choose, He may only leave us two choices, but if He wants us to choose one, He will make sure that the choices involve walking across a grassy field to pick a flower, against swimming down to the bottom of the ocean into an active volcano vent to harvest a crystal flower there.

Understand this - we as descendants of perfect man that is Adam inherited his perfection and his corruption as a result of the fall, and that when we are saved we are restored to that perfection over time, until we are brought once again into the physical presence of our God. We arent as modern Christians more holy, more perfect, more complete then Adam - that is a sinful conceit that has brought about doctrines of exclusion that have only the merest fragments of Biblical backing. Adam was created by God - and God created perfection. It was man and Satan who corrupted it.

 

[Yelsew]

Yelsew I almost agree with you - but I believe there is such a thing as prevenient grace - pre-salvatory work and that this work is accomplished by the Word of God

Since the Word of God never returns void - one must make the assumption that...

Is rejection of the word not an equal result with acceptance of the word? Therefore when the word returns to God, it is either accepted or rejected, thus it has not returned void, a choice has been made by the intended recipient.

Without the word, is there hearing? What is there to persuade the unbeliever into believing?
Without hearing is there faith? If the unbeliever hears nothing, what is there to have faith in?
Without faith is there salvation? If the unbeliever is not regenerated through faith, how pray tell can he be saved?

Free choice - and Election coincide and co-exist

I certainly agree with this equation! Now please tell me who the elect are.

It is necessary to achieve the sovereignty of God, in the fullest degree that no matter our free choice, His Will conquers all, save what He decides to let us have.

I have never posted anything that impinges on God's sovereinty in the slightest. And have instead insisted on it! Where I think people get confused with what I post is that I recognize man as God made him, not as man "interprets man to be".

He has set limits so that we cannot choose the choices He would not have us choose, but that in the options He leaves us, even the options that go against His will, we still have the responsibility to choose, He may only leave us two choices, but if He wants us to choose one, He will make sure that the choices involve walking across a grassy field to pick a flower, against swimming down to the bottom of the ocean into an active volcano vent to harvest a crystal flower there.

The only limits that man has in his choices are those that exceed man's God given ability to secure. For example, God lets man jump from tall buildings, that is within man's God given ability to do. God does not let man slow down and land safely after he has jumped, that is not in man's God given abilities. So it is safe for man to jump, it is not safe for man to come to sudden stops against solid objects.

 

[Frogman]

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Here the key word we are considering is 'word' so I italicized it for convenience. Here 'word' means utterance. This is the utterance of God and does not involve man in any way when eternal salvation is under consideration. Any context that involves man, or persuasion, or any involvement of man, either in preaching or in believing is conditional, eternal salvation is conditional upon only the obedient fulfillment of Christ as the Lamb of God. Enjoying peace with God in this world can be and is conditional upon the things you make eternal. Eternal salvation is that which is God's to give.

Can you see the two working in the following scriptures?

Psalms 37:25  I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.
26  He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed.
27  Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore.
28  For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
29  The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.
30  The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.
31  The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.
32  The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seeketh to slay him.
33  The LORD will not leave him in his hand, nor condemn him when he is judged.
34  ¶Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.
37:35  I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.
36  Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.
37  Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace.
38  But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
39  But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble.
40  And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Yelsew:

Now please tell me who the elect are.

Here is your problem, you are focusing on the attempt to know what only God knows instead of what He has revealed in His Word.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Originally posted by Yelsew: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Now please tell me who the elect are.

Here is your problem, you are focusing on the attempt to know what only God knows instead of what He has revealed in His Word.

</font>[/QUOTE]Then what do scriptures reveal of the elect?

 

[Yelsew]

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Here the key word we are considering is 'word' so I italicized it for convenience. Here 'word' means utterance. This is the utterance of God and does not involve man in any way when eternal salvation is under consideration. Any context that involves man, or persuasion, or any involvement of man, either in preaching or in believing is conditional, eternal salvation is conditional upon only the obedient fulfillment of Christ as the Lamb of God. Enjoying peace with God in this world can be and is conditional upon the things you make eternal. Eternal salvation is that which is God's to give.

Face the Truth Frogman. Jesus is God the Son, therefore John 3:16 is the utterance of God or, as you would say, "God's word". Therefore, "Whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life." is the WORD OF GOD! It is HIS spoken word that was written down because we could not be there, He knew that we could not be there, so HE caused His spoken words to be written down for ALL Generations of mankind to "hear" and believe, thus believing and being regenerated or Born Again.
Recognizing Jesus as the Son of God, the Messiah, certainly sheds new light on John Chapter 3, doesn't it? John 3 is the utterance of God!

Frogman, Do you not realize that every spoken word of God involves man? Every spoken word of God is directed to man, is heard by man and many of God's spoken words are written down by man. God is Spirit and has no need to utter words, except for the sake of man. Think about it!

[John 1:1] In the beginning was the Word: the Word was with God and the Word was God.
[John 1:2] He was with God in the beginning.
[John 1:3] Through him all things came into being, not one thing came into being except through him.
[John 1:4] What has come into being in him was life, life that was the light of men;
[John 1:5] and light shines in darkness, and darkness could not overpower it.

Who does virtually every bible scholar say this scripture referres to? That's right, The Son of God, Jesus.

 

[Frogman]

In the view you propose God must have man in order to save man. I cannot accept this in any degree.

It is not because you are not persistent though. I would commend you on your insistence of your belief and I think it is good that you support it so adamantly. I just cannot accept it because it removes God from his sovereign throne and places the created being in his place.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Hardsheller]

Hear, Hear, Frogman. You hit the nail on the head.

The God who has been portrayed in many of these posts is a passive God rather than an active God, and yet the Bible says clearly that God never changes.

The portrait of God many would have us accept is the portrait of a anemic God who created the perfect product and yet as a salesman is unable to sell it to all He demonstrates it to.

Or at the very worst a God who sits in heaven unsure of how many He will be able to save today because after all it's up to each individual to choose him or reject him.

I'm sorry but I can't see that kind of God in scripture. I see the Active God who spoke the universe into creation still actively participating in his creation and still actively drawing the hearts of some men and women, boys and girls to himself.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
In the view you propose God must have man in order to save man. I cannot accept this in any degree.

It is not because you are not persistent though. I would commend you on your insistence of your belief and I think it is good that you support it so adamantly. I just cannot accept it because it removes God from his sovereign throne and places the created being in his place.

Bro. Dallas

You certainly avoided responding to my post, what's the matter did your position become unsupportable?

 

[Frogman]

I didn't avoid anything. My response was directly related to your post.

You are right, the Bible does declare Jesus Christ to be the Word of God.

It also says in Heb. 1.1-2:

Hebrews 1:1  ¶God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

This supports my view and drops yours.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Squirm all you can, the facts are that your position of "regeneration prior to belief" is False! Your doctrine of "Total Depravity" is not supported by the scriptures that you say do support it. But the most important fact is that Salvation is for ALL mankind, and it is up to each individual to accept the word of God and believe unto salvation. That is the Will of God! That is HIS PLAN!

Without doubt, there is an "elect", and scriptues may reveal several different "elects", However, Jesus' atonement by death on the cross is for the sins of ALL mankind, and His Salvation is for ALL mankind, "WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM, and He leaves it up to us to believe in Him and thereby be saved.

If you cannot see that simple truth, perhaps you should not be a preacher!

 

[Me2]

Yelsew,

the will of God was that all mankind be plunged into death via adams choice. life being put into death.

this is the first death.

The will of God is that All mankind be placed into Christ. Death into Life.

this is the second death. the death of death.

oops did I say that Jesus Christ was the second death. isnt that suppossed to be the "lake of fire"?.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was NOT FOUND written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath ABOLISHED DEATH, and hath BROUGHT LIFE and immortality to light through the gospel:

2Co 5:4 For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

we seem to be in conflict of just what is the will of God these days...

the "elect" is being chosen NOW, and will have a part in harvesting the rest of Gods Creation Later..If all dead souls are "in Christ".. they must be born again at some time in the future of Gods Creations.
this is the enevitable conclusion of conversion.
we are all valued the same in Gods eyes. and that some are being prepared today to reconcile Gods creation back to himself in the ages to come.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Eph 1:22 And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Jesus destroyed death with life.

for all mankind. not for the "elect" alone

[ September 26, 2003, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

 

[Frogman]

If you cannot see that simple truth, perhaps you should not be a preacher!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am going to say this with as much humility as any man has ever possessed.

I played that game [the one you are now playing] and I lost. It cost me more than I would have ever chosen to have paid and more than anyone who has ever chosen Christ could imagine anyone could pay.

But you know nothing of that, so you engage your mouth simply to defend a position that has no defenses.

Acts 4:20  For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.