There you go! Amen!
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Drinking
- Thread starter Brian30755
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There you go! Amen!
You've already been told on this thread how you have taken that out of context. If you refuse to learn it is on you.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
God encourages proper use of his creation. There is no requirement to drink wine save at communion. So he is not disobeying God he's using his own ability to determine whether he wants to or not.
So you agree that drinking wine is not a sin and it is allowable in Scripture. Thank you for finally seeing the light!
Well, webdog and 12strings says God encourages us to drink according to Duet 14. So I wonder why 12strings doesn't obey.
So we are "required" to drink wine at communion? And if we don't? Hellfire?
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Encouraging is not requiring. Therefore to abstain is not disobedience.
as far as communion. Knowing Jewish passover custom I believe real wine is used during Jesus' last supper and wine is what he meant when he instituted communion.
As for not using wine at communion I would say that rule only applies to you and you must use manishevits. :laugh: Just in case you don't get my sarcasm that was a joke.
Why would you not want to do what God encourages you to do?
Don't get it. You said wine was "required" for communion. Generally with a requirement comes a consequence if not obeyed. What is the consequence for not using wine in one's communion?
I do, although I'm a beer guy myself...but where is the explicit command you keep referring to? The text says "whatever your heart desires", does it not?
Actually a drink free from yeast is required, something only wine could provide prior to pasteurization. Grape juice (unpasteurized) is full of yeast and would not have been permissible. The Israelites couldn't have yeast even in their homes for a week leading up to it!
Oh...and why don't you tell us how they kept grape juice fresh from harvest in late summer to passover in spring...in the middle east...without freezing and refrigeration? This ought to be good :laugh:
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
The consiquence is that you don't recieve the full graces God wants to give you in communion. You in otherwords deprive yourself. However, to make my position clear and I am singular on this thread because so far I am the only one to be catholic on this thread I believe that the real presense of Jesus Christ is present in the communion offering. So in essense just by your believe that communion is only representative in nature you deprive yourself of those graces anyway and thus whether you use wine or Juice you will not percieve any difference. However, you will only recieve that argument from me unless another catholic pipes in.
If I’m not mistaken and Thinkingstuff can correct me on this…but the Roman Catholic Church doesn’t require one to partake in the wine itself as they believe the wafer offered contains both the body and blood of Christ...the cup is available for those wishing to partake however…It’s my understanding that when the Aids scare started is when Catholics made the cup an option, because the cup was shared with everyone…
As an Orthodox Christian myself, we partake in both the bread and the wine…there is no choice…as both elements are combined in one cup and a small piece of bread and wine are served to us with a spoon…
And the reason we and the Roman Catholic and maybe even a few Mainline Protestant Churches use real wine is because real wine was used during the Last Supper…which was essentially Christ instituting the Eucharist celebration…
As an Orthodox Christian myself, we partake in both the bread and the wine…there is no choice…as both elements are combined in one cup and a small piece of bread and wine are served to us with a spoon…
And the reason we and the Roman Catholic and maybe even a few Mainline Protestant Churches use real wine is because real wine was used during the Last Supper…which was essentially Christ instituting the Eucharist celebration…
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
You are correct. The Catholic Church considers the real presence to fully present in both species. So to take one is to recieve in total. However, both species must be present at the service. Real wine was used at the institution of the sacrament so to use any other "vehicle" would not be valid. However, I usually take both the bread and the wine as it is a more full symbol.
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I too am puzzled why a RC would portray serving non-alcoholized fruit of the vine/cup as a 'deprivation of the full graces', seeing as many RC churches don't even serve the cup to parishoners, giving them just the bread while reserving the precious alcohol for the priest.
And this withholding of the cup business has been done for centuries in the RC church; it is not just a recent innovation in response to AIDS.
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Again, I can’t speak for all the Roman Catholic Churches, but the ones I did visit did in fact offer the cup of wine to its parishioners, but it was up to the parishioners to decided whether or not to partake…now there may have been a time when the cup wasn’t offered at all, but I’m not sure…
Today, and this is the same with the Orthodox Christian Church, there has to be enough wine and bread present to give to their whole congregation…there’s no way a priest knows how many people will show up for service, because the consecration of the elements begins during our Orthos service almost 2 hours before our Liturgy even begins at 10am…so in the case of the Orthodox Church…the priest brings enough bread and wine to the altar to cover what he feels attendance will be like…and a good priest who knows his congregation can get pretty close to the correct amount, but there’s always some left over…
In the case of the Roman Catholic Church their priest can make a judgment call on the fly…as their wafers come in a box…they grab what they need and offer their prayers in the consecration…our bread is baked by parishioners in their homes and our process of consecration is a lot more in depth than the RC Church, as I stated before…our consecrational prayers start 2 hours before our Liturgy begins…
It’s also a myth that priests get drunk off the wine afterwards…Not sure about the Roman Catholic Church, but in the Orthodox Christian Church, the wine we use during communion isn’t straight up wine…the priests dilute the cup with warm water to the point where one could drink the whole cup and not even get a buzz…
Today, and this is the same with the Orthodox Christian Church, there has to be enough wine and bread present to give to their whole congregation…there’s no way a priest knows how many people will show up for service, because the consecration of the elements begins during our Orthos service almost 2 hours before our Liturgy even begins at 10am…so in the case of the Orthodox Church…the priest brings enough bread and wine to the altar to cover what he feels attendance will be like…and a good priest who knows his congregation can get pretty close to the correct amount, but there’s always some left over…
In the case of the Roman Catholic Church their priest can make a judgment call on the fly…as their wafers come in a box…they grab what they need and offer their prayers in the consecration…our bread is baked by parishioners in their homes and our process of consecration is a lot more in depth than the RC Church, as I stated before…our consecrational prayers start 2 hours before our Liturgy begins…
It’s also a myth that priests get drunk off the wine afterwards…Not sure about the Roman Catholic Church, but in the Orthodox Christian Church, the wine we use during communion isn’t straight up wine…the priests dilute the cup with warm water to the point where one could drink the whole cup and not even get a buzz…
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
True. And its a very good question. From a Catholic perspective Jesus instituted the communion using both species of bread and Alcoholic wine. Thus at each service (Mass if you like) both species must be present. bread and wine. Though the Orthodox differ in belief about the consitency of the bread given at the last supper catholics hold that it was unleaven bread in connection with the passover which is why catholic bread is likewise unleavend (and from wheat) and must be present in the service as even the wine must be actual wine (with alcohol). Now about reception of the sacrament. Catholics hold that the real presence is found in both species during the service however since Jesus is himself not divided neither is he divided in each of the species thus when you recieve one part wine or bread you receive Jesus Christ entirely. However, the full symbol is represented when both species are taken. The Priest however must take both bread and wine. Which is why I made the statement the way I did. That if you're going to do communion right and for the graces to be extended the Symbol entire must be present or both species presented at the last supper. Thus in having grape juice in place of wine isn't valid for the sacrament.
However, I did note that since steaver doesn't even believe in the real presence offered in both species, he deprives himself anyway of the graces intended in the sacrament so an absence of wine isn't really an issue for him.
But to get back to the thread noting that both Catholics and Orthodox consider actual wine to be a necissary part of communion I think it speaks for the probability of actual wine used in the infant church having been instituted that way by Jesus himself. I agree with most on this thread with regard to alcohol. Wine isn't bad. IE Jesus teaching it isn't what goes into the man that defiles him but what comes out of the heart. Wine doesn't defile a man. Drunkeness which comes out of the heart of man due to lack of moderation and self control and is a type of glutony defiles the man. Not the wine iteself.
As far a priest getting drunk after service thats a myth. The priest who have disobeyed their bishops (not to speak of their faith) and got drunk (which is a sin) did so at a tavern not mass. This behavior is wrong and if discovered the priest would be disciplined.
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To quote it again:
When I say "encouraging", it is in the context of God saying buy 'whatever you like.' and "anything you wish." There is clearly latitude there, but it includes buying cattle, sheep, wine, or other fermented drink.
You still have not explained why you think we as NT beleivers are required to follow this particular requirement of OT kings, but not others.
By your logic, if we are all kings, then it is an absolute sin for any believer to have lots of horses, gold, or silver, to not make your own copy of the LAW...
By your logic, God tells the OT king to not multiply horses in one breath and then tells the OT king that he may buy whatever his heart desires in another.
God does not contradict, does He?
Thank you Ann! See 12strings? Ann gets it, your logic is contradicting.
You cannot reference a passage that speaks of God's instructions to a single OT king for a certain purpose for Israel at a certain specific time.
Proverbs 31, however, speaks to ALL kings and not just Lemuel, it is a proverbial prophecy. Proverb; "a wise saying or precept; a didactic sentence"
I'm sorry that you cannot see that Ann is agreeing with me.
Although singular language "king" is used, There is no indication that god is singling out a specific King in these instructions, as if these only apply to the first king, then the subsequent kings can disregard them. I'm not sure where you get that, and I don't very many bible scholars would back you up on that one.
The same question could also be asked of priests...why is one prohibition given to ON-DUTY Old Testament priests applicalbe to us today, when there are many other instructions given to priests that are not?
You are singling out the issue of Drinking alcohol for some reason that you have yet to point out.
Steaver...still waiting on how fresh grape juice was kept from late summer to spring without freezing and in the middle east. Are you just going to pretend it was still fresh juice at the Passover, or are you actually going to try instilling a little logic in this debate?
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