Drinking

[steaver]

Which one?

Any of them. Do you or your husband ever refer to Proverbs in your teaching?

 

[annsni]

Any of them. Do you or your husband ever refer to Proverbs in your teaching?

I'm asking which ones you are referring to.

 

[annsni]

Yes, I noticed that. And as christians we are in God's tabernacle performing NT instructions 24/7. We are a royal priesthood (1Pt2:9), to be set apart as holy unto God continually.

Why do you think God told His priest not to drink alcohol? Remember, you are one of God's priest in Christ (Rev 1:6)

Wine was used for many purposes throughout the bible. What is clear is that God does not want kings and priest partaking of it. These clear instructions gives credence to the argument that the wine Jesus consumed was likely of the variety that could not cause intoxication, for as you know, there are many stages a wine may go through.

So do we forever abstain from intimacy too? If we are in God's tabernacle performing 24/7, then we must stay clean.

But then again, what job are we doing that the Old Testament priest did?

 

[steaver]

I did not do as you said I did. I said that with YOUR explanation the poor priests of the Lord should get drunk.

That was not my explanation and that is not what verses 6 and 7 imply. Verses 6 and 7 is speaking of the dying, not the poor folk.

If a person cannot control their drinking, then they should not drink at all. Proverbs 31 says “lest they drink and forget what the law decrees, and deprive all the oppressed of their rights.” If you do NOT drink MUCH wine, you will NOT forget decrees, nor will it be your excuse for depriving all the oppressed of their rights.

Why would you misapply a perfectly clear passage of scripture? Sometimes we all make mistakes and use a passage to make a point which the passage makes no such point and we have to humble ourselves and make corrections. But this passage is clear, it says nothing about "If a person cannot control their drinking". Stop telling everyone here that they are adding to God's Word and then turn right around and do it yourself.

The scripture is clear, "it is not for kings to drink wine" period!

By the way Steaver, how much control do you have over the others rights? Answer that please.

I do not understand the question.

You are using the Old Testament about entering the tent of the meeting. The Holy Spirit now lives in true believers.

That is correct, so you should see the instruction clearly, we are in the tabernacle!

You should not drink any alcohol, Steaver, because you would not be drinking with faith

I should not and do not because I understand God's royal priesthood. To be set apart, holy, kings and priest unto God through our High Priest Jesus Christ. Praise Him and honor His instructions for our lives.

 

[steaver]

I'm asking which ones you are referring to.

I am reffering to Proverbs as a whole. Do you teach from any of the chapters or verses?

 

[annsni]

I will obey the Lord, not man. Jesus, as the great High Priest obeyed the word of God perfectly and so it is Jis model I will follow, that's you.

 

[steaver]

So do we forever abstain from intimacy too? If we are in God's tabernacle performing 24/7, then we must stay clean.

Paul does give some instruction on staying sexually inactive for some periods of time for the Lord's work (1Cr7:5)

But then again, what job are we doing that the Old Testament priest did

We're not doing the job they did. We are doing the NT job of ministering one to another. We are the new kings and priest for God administering in a new way. Abstaining from wine was not a "job" of the priest nor a sign of holiness. It was for a purpose, that purpose was so they and we do not get drawed into the destruction alcohol can bring.

Ann, you say you have not drank alcohol for 14 years and this is because of your ministry to the teens. Don't you see how the Holy Spirit has convinced you that you should not drink because you are a minister to others? If you study the scriptures you will see that we are ALL called to be ministers to others and it should not matter how big or small that role may look from the multitude's perspective, but rather from God's perspective. You are absolutely right to abstain from alcohol because of your ministry. That is fantastic! But Ann, we are all called to ministry and that same conviction you have about ministers and drinking alcohol should apply to every christian. You should embrace this royal priesthood teaching and teach your teens to abstain because of this. I am convinced God would bless your ministry and those kids will have something concrete to base their abstenence on and not this "well, as long as you don't get drunk" wishy-washiness that leads teens down a path of expermentation in their future. Give them something solid they can rest their principles on, that they can stand against this plague of alcohol that you know very well is destroying out teens and even our christian teens. I pray you consider and God bless you.

 

[annsni]

Paul does give some instruction on staying sexually inactive for some periods of time for the Lord's work (1Cr7:5)

But are we not always about the Lord's work?

We're not doing the job they did. We are doing the NT job of ministering one to another. We are the new kings and priest for God administering in a new way. Abstaining from wine was not a "job" of the priest nor a sign of holiness. It was for a purpose, that purpose was so they and we do not get drawed into the destruction alcohol can bring.

Ann, you say you have not drank alcohol for 14 years and this is because of your ministry to the teens. Don't you see how the Holy Spirit has convinced you that you should not drink because you are a minister to others? If you study the scriptures you will see that we are ALL called to be ministers to others and it should not matter how big or small that role may look from the multitude's perspective, but rather from God's perspective. You are absolutely right to abstain from alcohol because of your ministry. That is fantastic! But Ann, we are all called to ministry and that same conviction you have about ministers and drinking alcohol should apply to every christian. You should embrace this royal priesthood teaching and teach your teens to abstain because of this. I am convinced God would bless your ministry and those kids will have something concrete to base their abstenence on and not this "well, as long as you don't get drunk" wishy-washiness that leads teens down a path of expermentation in their future. Give them something solid they can rest their principles on, that they can stand against this plague of alcohol that you know very well is destroying out teens and even our christian teens. I pray you consider and God bless you.

However, you add to the word of God. Your idea of "wishy washy" is what God teaches and I would be very careful speaking that way of God's Word. Yes, we have, for a time chosen to abstain. That is our liberty, not law. We have friends who have not chosen to partake as their liberty and I know they also have a great ministry to those older than those we minister to. I will never add to God's Word so I will not practice or preach more than what is clearly written.

 

[Moriah]

That was not my explanation and that is not what verses 6 and 7 imply. Verses 6 and 7 is speaking of the dying, not the poor folk.

The scripture says, “Give beer to those who are perishing,
Wine to those who are in anguish:
Let them drink and forget their poverty
And remember their misery no more.

Do you not think those in poverty have anguish about it?


If a person cannot control their drinking, then they should not drink at all. Proverbs 31 says “lest they drink and forget what the law decrees, and deprive all the oppressed of their rights.” If you do NOT drink MUCH wine, you will NOT forget decrees, nor will it be your excuse for depriving all the oppressed of their rights.

Why would you misapply a perfectly clear passage of scripture?

Stop accusing me of such things. Why do you misapply passages?

Sometimes we all make mistakes and use a passage to make a point which the passage makes no such point and we have to humble ourselves and make corrections. But this passage is clear, it says nothing about "If a person cannot control their drinking".
Stop telling everyone here that they are adding to God's Word and then turn right around and do it yourself.

Where did I say, “This passage says if a person cannot control their drinking”? Stop making up things I do not do.

The scripture is clear, "it is not for kings to drink wine" period!

It was about earthly kings and rulers. You are not king and ruler. You need to stop trying to manipulate the scriptures to say things they do not.

I do not understand the question.

Here is the question again, “By the way Steaver, how much control do you have over the others rights?”
You used a scripture about kings and rulers. The scripture says they should stay away from wine and beer lest they drink and forget what the law decrees, AND DEPRIVE ALL THE OPPRESSED OF THEIR RIGHTS. Therefore, since you say this is about YOU and all Christians, tell me, do you have the ability to deprive all the oppressed of their rights?

That is correct, so you should see the instruction clearly, we are in the tabernacle!

God said that about entering the tent of the meeting. Do not make up your own rules for us.
Jesus turned water into wine for others to drink. Why do you make up rules and say things that go against Jesus?

 

[steaver]

However, you add to the word of God. Your idea of "wishy washy" is what God teaches and I would be very careful speaking that way of God's Word. Yes, we have, for a time chosen to abstain. That is our liberty, not law. We have friends who have not chosen to partake as their liberty and I know they also have a great ministry to those older than those we minister to. I will never add to God's Word so I will not practice or preach more than what is clearly written.

I have added nothing. God does not teach to drink wine, drinking wine is assumed by some who believe Jesus drank alcoholic wine. Not all believe that and have some credence in their presentations defending their beliefs. We know for certain that God says kings and priest should abstain, this we know is fact. Of course, that includes all Christians who by birth have been placed in the kingship and priesthood of Christ. I notice you have had no refute of these truths, you just keep sticking on Jesus drinking wine. Something scholars disagree with.

We are ALL ambassadors for Christ. As I said, the Spirit has convicted you correctly, but you fail to realize that all christians are ministers for Christ.

 

[12strings]

Well, I am giving you godly counsel. God says that you are a king and a priest (Rev 1:6) and God has instructed kings and priest are not to drink alcohol. God left no room for debate on these clear instructions.

God also tells me I am a spiritual child of abraham, yet I don't have to be circumsized or abstain from pork.

God told kings in the OT to write out their own copy of the Torah...Do I have to do that to, since I'm a king?

You are going beyond the "clear instructions" of God's word.

The only way your argument would be airtight would be IF we were either OT Jewish Kings (literally), or ON-DUTY priests..., Off-duty priest would be a different matter.

 

[12strings]

Wine was used for many purposes throughout the bible. What is clear is that God does not want kings and priest partaking of it.

Again, you are ADDING to and at the same time TAKING AWAY from the scriptural word:

ADDED: We as NT believers are required to follow ALL of the requirements laid down for God's Israeli kings and priests in the OT?

TAKEN AWAY: The priests were prohibited ONLY when on tabernacle duty...
...Kings were required to do many other things that no christian thinks we are required to do (like copy the torah for themselves)...

 

[12strings]

You're not being consistent, Steaver: (MY NOTES IN BLUE)

I have added nothing. God does not teach to drink wine, drinking wine is assumed by some who believe Jesus drank alcoholic wine. Not all believe that and have some credence in their presentations defending their beliefs. [an excellent balanced statement acknowledging two sides of an issue...we don't really know what Jesus drank...BUT IT COULD HAVE HAD ALCOHOL] We know for certain that God says kings and priest should abstain, this we know is fact. [except, of course, when the priests are off-duty...you keep forgetting to include that part] Of course, that includes all Christians who by birth have been placed in the kingship and priesthood of Christ. [there is no "of course" here. actually, Rev. 1:6 says we are a "kingdom of priests"...not "kings and priests." Anyway, it is not an "OF COURSE" of biblical interpretation to take EVERY command given to OT priests and kings and apply them to NT believers.] I notice you have had no refute of these truths, [actually, I just did] you just keep sticking on Jesus drinking wine. Something [SOME] scholars disagree with.

We are ALL ambassadors for Christ. As I said, the Spirit has convicted you correctly, but you fail to realize that all Christians are ministers for Christ.

Seriously...that is not at all what she has failed to realize...you seriously think Ann doesn't know all christians are minister for Chris? really? ...she has simply failed to "realize" that all christian ministers are required by scripture to abstain from alcohol.

Abstaining may be a wise choice, it may be the best choice in a culture that abuses it, but it is simply not the only possible biblically required choice.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I think God holds to a moderate view of drinking. Based on my Knowledge of Jewish festivals and ceremonies I hold that the Water into wine at Cana would have been with Alcohol. Alcohol also occures naturally in nature. As in anything its abuse of it which causes problems. Here are some positives verses.

Go, e eat your bread with joy,
And drink your wine with a merry heart;
For God has already accepted your works. - Ecc 9:7

You cause the grass to grow for the livestock
and plants for man to cultivate,
that he may bring forth food from the earth
15 and wine to gladden the heart of man,
oil to make his face shine
and bread to strengthen mans heart. - 104:14-15

I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel,
and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them;
they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine,
and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit - Amos 9:14

Come, everyone who thirsts,
come to the waters;
and he who has no money,
come, buy and eat!
Come, buy wine and milk
without money and without price - Is 55:1

I think the intent is not to totally abstain but to follow these clear instructions

And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit,
Eph 5:8

They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved. - 2 Pet 2:19

 

[Moriah]

12 strings said "[an excellent balanced statement acknowledging two sides of an issue...we don't really know what Jesus drank...BUT IT COULD HAVE HAD ALCOHOL] "

We know what Jesus drank, and it was wine, an alcoholic drink.

Matthew 11:19
The Son of Man came, eating freely and drinking wine — so they say, ‘Aha! A glutton and a drunkard! A friend of tax-collectors and sinners!’ Well, the proof of wisdom is in the actions it produces.”

Matthew 26:27
Also he took a cup of wine, made the b’rakhah, and gave it to them, saying, “All of you, drink from it!

Matthew 26:29
I tell you, I will not drink this ‘fruit of the vine’ again until the day I drink new wine with you in my Father’s Kingdom.”

Jesus turned water into wine.

John 2:10
and said to him, “Everyone else serves the good wine first and the poorer wine after people have drunk freely. But you have kept the good wine until now!”

Jesus taught wisdom using wine facts in his teachings, but did not tell us not to ever drink it.

Matthew 9:17
Nor do people put new wine in old wineskins; if they do, the skins burst, the wine spills and the wineskins are ruined. No, they pour new wine into freshly prepared wineskins, and in this way both are preserved.”

We are not to get drunk.

Ephesians 5:18
Don’t get drunk with wine, because it makes you lose control. Instead, keep on being filled with the Spirit —

Titus 2:3 Likewise, tell the older women to behave the way people leading a holy life should. They shouldn’t be slanderers or slaves to excessive drinking. They should teach what is good,

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Studying wine used in Orthodox Jewish settings is they use wine that sanctified or Kiddush and what makes the wine Kosher is the wine making process or Kashrut not lack of alcohol. This is in accordance with Torah. Thus this has been the view for thousands of years giving me the view that Jesus turned water into Kosher wine for the Jewish wedding. Interesting to note that Midrash teachings say that the grape was the forbbiden fruit that Eve partook in rather than the apple as in western views.

 

[steaver]

The scripture says, “Give beer to those who are perishing,
Wine to those who are in anguish:
Let them drink and forget their poverty
And remember their misery no more.

Do you not think those in poverty have anguish about it?

Do you really think we should be going into the streets of metropolitan cities and handing out wine to the homeless? Get serious Moriah. The context is the dying!

If a person cannot control their drinking, then they should not drink at all. Proverbs 31 says “lest they drink and forget what the law decrees, and deprive all the oppressed of their rights.” If you do NOT drink MUCH wine, you will NOT forget decrees, nor will it be your excuse for depriving all the oppressed of their rights.

There you go repeating the same thing I just rebuked you on. Proverbs 31 says NOTHING about "addiction" or "out of control drinking". Stop adding in something that is not there!

Where did I say, “This passage says if a person cannot control their drinking”? Stop making up things I do not do.

You said, "If a person cannot control their drinking, then they should not drink at all. Proverbs 31 says “lest they drink and forget what the law decrees, and deprive all the oppressed of their rights.”

Do you see how you used Proverbs 31 to affirm your statement?? That is where you said it.

It was about earthly kings and rulers. You are not king and ruler. You need to stop trying to manipulate the scriptures to say things they do not.

Christ says I am a king and I am a king in God's kingdom right now. A spiritual kingdom, not of this world, yet in this world. I am a king among my brethren, and so are you! You would persuade me to believe that God told earthly kings they should not drink wine but God would not care if His spiritual kings drank wine. Does that really make any sense to you?

Here is the question again, “By the way Steaver, how much control do you have over the others rights?”
You used a scripture about kings and rulers. The scripture says they should stay away from wine and beer lest they drink and forget what the law decrees, AND DEPRIVE ALL THE OPPRESSED OF THEIR RIGHTS. Therefore, since you say this is about YOU and all Christians, tell me, do you have the ability to deprive all the oppressed of their rights?

Here is the actual quote; "Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted".

We are responsible one for another. When we see our brothers or sisters going astray we are called to lovingly call them back into the fold. In order to do this we must make spiritual judgments and even judgments as to sinful actions. The scripture (Prov 31) is not saying that one drink will cause perverted judgments. It is saying don't even have one because it could lead you down a slippery slope. How true, as we see this played out in our teen world of their drug of choice - alcohol. It is sad that we should tell them this drug is ok by God. How terrible to teach such a thing to our children.

God said that about entering the tent of the meeting. Do not make up your own rules for us.
Jesus turned water into wine for others to drink. Why do you make up rules and say things that go against Jesus?

I gave scripture to support our tabernacle. I gave scripture to support our kingship and priesthood. It is well established that scholars are divided on the Jesus and alcohol debate. What is not up for debate is our kingship and priesthood. One thing is perfectly clear, Jesus said we are kings and Jesus said kings are not to drink wine. This we can preach without controversey! Of course, you will always have those looking for a justification to take drugs. This will never change.

 

[steaver]

God also tells me I am a spiritual child of abraham, yet I don't have to be circumsized or abstain from pork.

.

We need to distinguish between the spiritual and the physical. Circumcision and pork are dealt with in the NT.

God told kings in the OT to write out their own copy of the Torah...Do I have to do that to, since I'm a king?

No, that would be an OT work. We are under the NT works and abstaining from wine is not a work any more than having faith is a work.

The only way your argument would be airtight would be IF we were either OT Jewish Kings (literally), or ON-DUTY priests..., Off-duty priest would be a different matter

The scripture does not make those distinctions, you may wish it did, but it does not. Kings are not to drink wine and Jesus has made us kings. Why fight this? Do you need that drug that bad??? THe lengths some will go to defend their pleasures!

 

[Moriah]

Do you really think we should be going into the streets of metropolitan cities and handing out wine to the homeless? Get serious Moriah. The context is the dying!

The scripture says, “Let them drink and forget their poverty.” Do you know what poverty means?
pov•er•ty
Noun:
1. The state of being extremely poor.
2. The state of being inferior in quality or insufficient in amount.
With YOUR reasoning, you really think we should be going into the streets of metropolitan cities and handing out wine to the homeless.

There you go repeating the same thing I just rebuked you on. Proverbs 31 says NOTHING about "addiction" or "out of control drinking". Stop adding in something that is not there!

You think you are rebuking me. All you are doing is adding to God’s word. I fear for you.
I am explaining the scripture to you. I am not saying the scripture says, “If you do not drink much wine…” You cannot even rightfully explain what I say, how can you be trusted with explaining what the word of God says?
The scripture says, “…lest they drink and forget…” What do you think lest means? It means they should not drink to avoid the risk of drinking too much then forgetting…
Proverbs 20:11 Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler; whoever is led astray by them is not wise.
Ecclesiastes 10: 17 Blessed are you, O land whose king is of noble birth and whose princes eat at a proper time--for strength and not for drunkenness.
Drinking too much wine and beer causes one to forget.
"It is not for kings, O Lemuel--not for kings to drink wine, not for rulers to crave beer,…”
The scripture goes on to explain what kind of people should like to forget, or need to forget!

"If a person cannot control their drinking, then they should not drink at all. Proverbs 31 says “lest they drink and forget what the law decrees, and deprive all the oppressed of their rights.”

Do you see how you used Proverbs 31 to affirm your statement?? That is where you said it.

I am EXPLAINING the scripture. You however, accused me of quoting the scripture when I did not.

Christ says I am a king and I am a king in God's kingdom right now.

Again, God did not say you are an earthly king and ruler who is in charge for a county.

A spiritual kingdom, not of this world, yet in this world. I am a king among my brethren, and so are you! You would persuade me to believe that God told earthly kings they should not drink wine but God would not care if His spiritual kings drank wine. Does that really make any sense to you?

If you drink too much, then NO, do not drink at all.

Here is the actual quote; "Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted".

We are responsible one for another. When we see our brothers or sisters going astray we are called to lovingly call them back into the fold. In order to do this we must make spiritual judgments and even judgments as to sinful actions. The scripture (Prov 31) is not saying that one drink will cause perverted judgments. It is saying don't even have one because it could lead you down a slippery slope. How true, as we see this played out in our teen world of their drug of choice - alcohol. It is sad that we should tell them this drug is ok by God. How terrible to teach such a thing to our children.

If I were your child, I would not trust nor respect what you said anymore about being a Christian, since you did not tell the truth about what the Bible says about Christians drinking.
Children should be taught about not drinking to get drunk. Children should be taught about obeying the legal age laws for drinking, and laws about drinking and driving.

I gave scripture to support our tabernacle. I gave scripture to support our kingship and priesthood. It is well established that scholars are divided on the Jesus and alcohol debate.

Why do you speak of scholars? A person could go to school for a long time and still not know God’s Truth.

What is not up for debate is our kingship and priesthood. One thing is perfectly clear, Jesus said we are kings and Jesus said kings are not to drink wine. This we can preach without controversey! Of course, you will always have those looking for a justification to take drugs. This will never change.

My King Jesus Christ drank wine.

 

[steaver]

My King Jesus Christ drank wine.

Two sides to this issue. One side declares God approves of recreational drug use. The other side says God does not. You must choose your team and live with all the consequences that come along with it. My conscience is clear.

It is shameful to teach children recreation drugs are ok with God. Shameful.