Yep - I was agreeing with 12strings. God does not contradict. He does not say to do something then elsewhere say that doing that thing is evil. So we must look more closely. How about "anything your heart desires" is within the guidelines of God's laws? Would "anything your heart desires" include prostitutes? No. That would be against God's law. So to say that God said to not multiply horses then to do what your heart desires contradicts that is to not use the whole counsel of the Word of God.
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Yep - I was agreeing with 12strings. God does not contradict. He does not say to do something then elsewhere say that doing that thing is evil. So we must look more closely. How about "anything your heart desires" is within the guidelines of God's laws? Would "anything your heart desires" include prostitutes? No. That would be against God's law. So to say that God said to not multiply horses then to do what your heart desires contradicts that is to not use the whole counsel of the Word of God.
Well, I pointed out your logical contradiction and Ann posted "God does not contradict, does He?". So I figured she was agreeing with my point.
It's interesting that you would want to apply this singular king passage to all kings, yet Proverbs 31 uses the plural "kings" when giving instructions through prophecy, but you don't want that to mean all kings like you and I.
Let me give you an example that may help you understand the debate here over alcoholic wine verses non-alcoholic wine.
As Christians, we all are in agreement on many things such as Jesus is Lord God, The Son of God, A person of the Trinity, He is the attonement for our sins. But on many issues we do not all agree, such as OSAS, TULIP, sin nature, music, baptism, etc. On issues such as these we have debate boards just for Christians who agree on the essentials of Jesus Christ, but like to debate such non-essentials that do not determine if one is a Christian or not.
We cannot deny that there is a divide among Christians as to whether or not wine is always alcoholic when spoken of in scripture or whether the scripture speaks of both alcoholic and non-alcoholic wines.
I have heard both sides of this argument and each side has some good points to share. Such as the one you bring up about preservation of the wine or juice if you will. I gather your point is that the alcohol works as a preservative. I don't know, does it? I know they put the juice into wine skins. Could it be that the juice stays preserved because no air can get to it? again, I don't know. But maybe you have a point.
So back and forth we go about the wine. Was it alcohol, was it not. Back and forth, back and forth. However, what we do know for certain and we should all have absolutely no disagreements about is this; Jesus Christ is King and High Priest. Jesus Christ has made us kings and priest (Rev1:6). So when the scripture reads that kings are not to drink wine nor strong drink (Pro 31) then we ought to obey and let the wine for the unbelievers. Do as Jesus did and declare that you will no longer drink any wine until Jesus comes back when He says He will drink it a new - whatever He means by that we will find out then.
>Could it be that the juice stays preserved because no air can get to it?
If there is no air the natural yeast produces alcohol. If there is air, vinegar.
The little critters produce vinegar when there is sufficient oxygen to completely oxidize the sugars in the grape juice. If not, they can still eat the sugar but the waste product is alcohol instead of acetic (?) acid. Amazing little critters.
If there is no air the natural yeast produces alcohol. If there is air, vinegar.
The little critters produce vinegar when there is sufficient oxygen to completely oxidize the sugars in the grape juice. If not, they can still eat the sugar but the waste product is alcohol instead of acetic (?) acid. Amazing little critters.
This is a classic red herring. I ask how they keep juice fresh from summer to spring and you give me a completely unrelated sermon. Answer the question this time please.
His post was quite good. The substance was probably kept as a thick almost-past-like substance, and then when needed water was added.
The Jewish method of preservation of grape juice was common sense.
Jesus performed a miracle of creation testifying to his deity.
And you can't see the difference?
...yet for THOUSANDS of years without ever changing wine has been used. Alcoholic wine.
Yes, the fact He could turn wine instantly into a well aged, well refined wine...not some jelly mixed with water.
Oh, I see the difference. You cheapen His miracle, the Passover and His Word with your stance on alcohol.And you can't see the difference?
And I said "i don't know", but what I do know is that Jesus is King and High Priest and Christians are His kings and priest here on earth representing Him and the Kingdom of God.
Where does scripture say it was "well aged and refined"? How do you know it wasn't fresh from the vine pure grape juice?
People just cannot accept the truth in all ways.
The scriptures say wine, but some twist the truth into some outlandish nonsense and claim it to be non-alcoholic wine.
The scripture says do this in remembrance of me, but the people cannot accept this plain and simple truth, that it is a remembrance, instead they believe thousands of priests perform a special ritual daily that turns wafers into the real body of Jesus and wine into the real blood.
The Bible says we learn about Jesus and that is how we get faith, then we confess and call on Jesus to save us, but people cannot accept this plain and simple truth, they teach it backwards. They teach God saves us first and at that time, we believe and then later able to give real confessions.
The Bible warns us about obeying, yet people claim they can do whatever they want and feel secure about not falling into God’s wrath.
The Truth is not that hard to follow. So many false religions and false doctrines…when someone does want the Truth, no wonder it is something one must seek out with such force.
The scriptures say wine, but some twist the truth into some outlandish nonsense and claim it to be non-alcoholic wine.
The scripture says do this in remembrance of me, but the people cannot accept this plain and simple truth, that it is a remembrance, instead they believe thousands of priests perform a special ritual daily that turns wafers into the real body of Jesus and wine into the real blood.
The Bible says we learn about Jesus and that is how we get faith, then we confess and call on Jesus to save us, but people cannot accept this plain and simple truth, they teach it backwards. They teach God saves us first and at that time, we believe and then later able to give real confessions.
The Bible warns us about obeying, yet people claim they can do whatever they want and feel secure about not falling into God’s wrath.
The Truth is not that hard to follow. So many false religions and false doctrines…when someone does want the Truth, no wonder it is something one must seek out with such force.
The one who tasted what Jesus made said He made the "best", the same "best" wine He will serve us from Isaiah 25:6
On this mountain the LORD of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine, of rich food full of marrow, of aged wine well refined.
The context from the passage about the best wine being served first and the cheap wine served last after senses are dulled further affirm this.
Then they didn't really drink wine or juice at the last supper?
I think you DO know...but affirming only alcoholic wine can be preserved in this manner shatters your view.
I see the difference in a "cheapened" personal attack.
A miracle is a miracle. Where do you draw the line? Which one is cheap and which one is expensive?
He turned water into wine (unfermented). This was a miracle. It was a miracle of creation. He turned one substance into another. He could have turned it into milk and it would have been just as great a miracle, but he didn't, he turned it into oinos.
oinos means fermented or unfermented wine.
yayin, the Hebrew word means fermented or unfermented wine.
200 years and back "wine" meant fermented or unfermented.
"cider" still means fermented or unfermented depending on where you are.
The context determines the meaning of the word.
The Bible does not speak of non-alcoholic wine. If the juice of the grape is not fermented, then it is grape juice. Here are a few scriptures that one should easily see that.
Leviticus 10:9 “You and your sons are not to drink wine or other fermented drink whenever you go into the Tent of Meeting, or you will die. This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come.
Numbers 6:3 he must abstain from wine and other fermented drink and must not drink vinegar made from wine or from other fermented drink. He must not drink grape juice or eat grapes or raisins.
Deuteronomy 14:26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice.
Leviticus 10:9 “You and your sons are not to drink wine or other fermented drink whenever you go into the Tent of Meeting, or you will die. This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come.
Numbers 6:3 he must abstain from wine and other fermented drink and must not drink vinegar made from wine or from other fermented drink. He must not drink grape juice or eat grapes or raisins.
Deuteronomy 14:26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice.
The Bible does not say wine. It says oinos. People just cannot accept the truth, can they?
Then they didn't really drink wine or juice at the last supper?
I think you DO know...but affirming only alcoholic wine can be preserved in this manner shatters your view.
It doesn't shatter my view. My view is that it matters not if the wine is fermented or not, for kings and priest are not to partake either way. You may say that Jesus is a king and priest, but you know full well that He stepped down from His position to serve and to fulfill the attonement as the second Adam. So even if Jesus drank fermented wine at His supper, He was not on His throne as King at that time. Niether were the disciples yet entered into the kingship or priesthood for Jesus Christ was not yet returned to His throne.
Mariah, thanks for reminding me about Lev. 6:3.
He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.
So 'liquor' here is speaking of something nonalcoholic? Really?
He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.
So 'liquor' here is speaking of something nonalcoholic? Really?
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