eschatology continued

[prophecy70]

Secondly, about that idea that futurism is a Catholic doctrine: I'm tired of it. You did not prove it. You've given no direct link between those Catholics and Baptist theologians of any era.

Baptists have never followed Catholic eschatology. As proof, here are the futurist views of John Gill (1696-1771), who might be called the first major Baptist theologian. (They were pretty much just trying to stay alive or out of jail in the 17th century.)

What does that have to do with a modern day antichrist and that part of futurism?

 

[David Kent]

No, in America we say "Yeah" as a casual substitute for "yes." But sorry, I don't know what PTR means. We don't use that term on the BB, and I don't go to other forums.

I was taught not to be careless with the English Language.
PTR = Pre tribulation rapture.

Someone said England and America are two nations divided by a common language. So we are likely to have some misunderstandings.

 

[evangelist6589]

My search is for truth. I did an honest review of Comfort's books. And once again you are judging my motives, something that only God is equipped to do. So stop taking over the role of God.

What did you learn from the books?

 

[robycop3]

The Pope ruled the whole Roman world. His mark is the sign of the cross, which is made by his followers with the right hand on the forehead. Where does it say he would set up a talking statue in the temple in Jerusalem?

Have you never heard of the weeping, bleeding, talking statues and appearances of Mary and all the other false miracles of Rome.

Here is one you may not have heard of. We once had a holiday house in France. In the nearby town of Favernay a remarkable miracle took place on 26-27 May in 1608 when a priest had prepared a consecrated host to be adored by the worshipers the next day. During the night a fire broke out in the church and the altar was destroyed but the congregation were astounded to see that the vessel containing the hosts was suspended above the burnt altar. It remained suspended for 33 hours, and on of these is still to be seen in the church today, the other was sent to another church. This so called miracle was a great help in aiding the counter reformation in the area.
This false miracle is recorded in guide books of the area.

David, none of those things was the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. the prophecies have been fulfilled through the destruction of J 7 the temple, war & rumor of war, persecution of Christians, the trampling of J underfoot by gentiles, etc. but NONE of the eschatological events have yet been fulfilled.

NO beast ruling the world

NO marka the beast (Only now possible thru the use of microchips)

NO great trib

And certainly, NO glorious returna Jesus, SEEN BY ALL, as He said it'll be.

The LITERAL fulfillment of Jesus' prophecies, especially those of the Olivet Discourse that'been fulfilled so far, proves the rest will be fulfilled JUST-AS-LITERALLY.

Now, what fell on the Jews of "that generation" was the "days of vengeance" prophesied by Jesus upon them, holding them responsible for the murders of all righteous up through that time, beginning with Abel. And a MUCH-GREATER punishment fell upon the Jews a coupla generations later, beginning 135-136 AD when Hadrian kicked them outta their land & gave it to the Philistines & others who'd not rebelled against Rome. that punishment lasted til 1945 when the nazis fell.

 

[robycop3]

Matt 24:29-31 -- Christ speaks of the end signs. This passage hinges upon the apocalyptic language of the great prophets Isaiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, David, etc. in exactly the same way they used such language for God's judgments against nations and individuals in their own times. Compare Christ's words with God's coming to O.T. Babylon in 539BC (Isa 13:10-13, 13:1, and 13:17), God's coming to Edom in 703BC (Isa 34:3-5), God's coming to Egypt in 572BC (Ez 32:7-11), God's coming to Nineveh in 612BC (Nahum 1). So, in like manner, Jesus Christ is now also seen as coming in that same glory of the Father (cf. Matt 16:27; John 17:5). Jesus came to first-century Israel and demolished it in the same glory as the Father's cloud-comings in the OT era (cf. Isaiah 19:1-2). Thus, this passage speaks of Christ's full equality and oneness with Jehovah. This particular "coming" of Christ is signified by the fall of Jerusalem and the Holy Temple. Many cosmic signs were also witnessed in that period: the angels, voices, and glorious brightness of God are witnessed at the temple and around Jerusalem as recorded in Josephus, Tacitus, and the Midrash (Josephus, Wars, 6:5:3; 2:22:1-2; 4:4:5; 6:5:2-3; Tacitus, Histories, v. 13; Midrash, Lam 2:11).

No, Jesus did NOT return in 70 AD. That's hogwash. His return will be the MOST-GLORIOUS sight men will ever see on earth, and will be SEEN BY ALL & not mistaken for anything else.

You're trying to use the pret dodge of reducing "inconvenient" Scriptures to "figurative/symbolic/apocalyptic" language to try to cover the gaps between pret pronouncements and REALITY. Well, it WON'T WORK!

The LITERAL fulfillment of Jesus' prophecies so far proves the rest of'em will be fulfilled JUST-AS-LITERALLY.

And Josephus was not always the most-honest of authors. Remember, he'd been arrested as a rebel leader, & knew better than to say or write anything the least bit offensive to the Flavius family who'd adopted him. And he'd remained a Jew by religion.

Tacitus only wrote what he'd heard. He was not a witness to any of these events that were supposed to have happened. And the Midrash contains many fables & legends by various authors.

Time for you to face reality and stop believing man-made myths & legends.

 

[prophecy70]

No, Jesus did NOT return in 70 AD. That's hogwash. His return will be the MOST-GLORIOUS sight men will ever see on earth, and will be SEEN BY ALL & not mistaken for anything else.

You're trying to use the pret dodge of reducing "inconvenient" Scriptures to "figurative/symbolic/apocalyptic" language to try to cover the gaps between pret pronouncements and REALITY. Well, it WON'T WORK!

The LITERAL fulfillment of Jesus' prophecies so far proves the rest of'em will be fulfilled JUST-AS-LITERALLY.

And Josephus was not always the most-honest of authors. Remember, he'd been arrested as a rebel leader, & knew better than to say or write anything the least bit offensive to the Flavius family who'd adopted him. And he'd remained a Jew by religion.

Tacitus only wrote what he'd heard. He was not a witness to any of these events that were supposed to have happened. And the Midrash contains many fables & legends by various authors.

Time for you to face reality and stop believing man-made myths & legends.

Explain this generation to me. And show me one more example in Matthew where it speaks of a future generation. Mr literal.

 

[John of Japan]

well with all that knowledge, you should be able to refute him easily right? I didn't send anyone after you to debate you. I asked him to read the posts yes. I don't even know him other then a few PMs ,he is an adult, he made his own choice about PMing you.

Then I apologize. Don't know why you asked someone on another forum to read my posts, though.

I wasn't here to debate, I was here to learn, which I am from very respected people on here, I was never raised in the baptist and if this was the first baptist post I've encountered, I would be sitting in the front row of a catholic church praying the rosary.

If you're trying to lay a guilt trip on me, it's not working. You've done nothing but debate since you got here. And that's perfectly fine with me, because you've been posting on debate threads.

 

[John of Japan]

Yes, It was in the magazine for Christian Witness To Israel a year or so ago.It was from an early quote from a message he gave in one of their early conferences. I don't have the magazine in front of me, so I quoted from my memory.

Be that as it may, the fact remains that he was clearly premil in position--and certainly not a dispensationalist, so you can't accuse him with your Catholic source.

 

[David Kent]

Be that as it may, the fact remains that he was clearly premil in position--and certainly not a dispensationalist, so you can't accuse him with your Catholic source.

Yes I agree with you there. Although I have seen many dispies say that he was a dispensationalist, I think you can get most, or all, of his sermons online. Or on the Online Bible. If you get the Online Bible.on the DVD and not a download, It comes with them as standard.

 

[John of Japan]

Yes I agree with you there. Although I have seen many dispies say that he was a dispensationalist, I think you can get most, or all, of his sermons online. Or on the Online Bible. If you get the Online Bible.on the DVD and not a download, It comes with them as standard.

Anyone, dispensationalist or otherwise, who says Spurgeon was a "dispy" (hate that word) doesn't understand dispensationalism or Spurgeon, either one. On the other hand many who argue against or for dispensationalism don't understand it either.

For example, what is a dispensation?

 

[John of Japan]

Explain this generation to me. And show me one more example in Matthew where it speaks of a future generation. Mr literal.

"Mr. Literal." You see that? That's confrontational, that's sarcasm, that's not a humble, willing-to-learn attitude that you say you have. It's not at all respectful towards your opponent, robycop, who can teach you some things if you'll listen to him.

 

[John of Japan]

I was taught not to be careless with the English Language.
PTR = Pre tribulation rapture.

Someone said England and America are two nations divided by a common language. So we are likely to have some misunderstandings.

Saying "yeah" is not careless in modern American English. However, I have to say that growing up, I was not allowed to say "yeah" to my parents. It was "Yes sir, no sir"--English honorifics, if you don't mind a reference to Japanese (which has tons of honorific words).

 

[David Kent]

David, none of those things was the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy. the prophecies have been fulfilled through the destruction of J 7 the temple, war & rumor of war, persecution of Christians, the trampling of J underfoot by gentiles, etc. but NONE of the eschatological events have yet been fulfilled.

NO beast ruling the world

NO marka the beast (Only now possible thru the use of microchips)

NO great trib

And certainly, NO glorious returna Jesus, SEEN BY ALL, as He said it'll be.

The LITERAL fulfillment of Jesus' prophecies, especially those of the Olivet Discourse that'been fulfilled so far, proves the rest will be fulfilled JUST-AS-LITERALLY.

Now, what fell on the Jews of "that generation" was the "days of vengeance" prophesied by Jesus upon them, holding them responsible for the murders of all righteous up through that time, beginning with Abel. And a MUCH-GREATER punishment fell upon the Jews a coupla generations later, beginning 135-136 AD when Hadrian kicked them outta their land & gave it to the Philistines & others who'd not rebelled against Rome. that punishment lasted til 1945 when the nazis fell.

Well you and I will disagree on this. If you don't understand history, you will never know which prophecies have been fulfilled. Dispensational teaching, or it was when I was under it, is that the church is not mentioned in the OT, To use your words, I try not to descend to such but. HOGWASH. The disciples said that the OT prophecies were about their days.
And far from all the Prophecies in Olivet were end times. Or for that matter Daniel 9.

 

[John of Japan]

What does that have to do with a modern day antichrist and that part of futurism?

Your OP does not mention the Antichrist. I don't know what you mean by "that part" of futurism. Your OP is so broad that almost anything in Daniel or Revelation or the Olivet Discourse will fit. I'm not really excited about discussing all of that with you. If you want to ask me specific questions about the Antichrist I'll do my best to answer them.

 

[TCassidy]

Explain this generation to me.

Response to [member's names not allowed in thread title] on Partial Preterism

Preterism - True Or false?

 

[agedman]

J. Dwight Pentecost quotes amil O. T. Allis, who was amil and an opponent of premillennialism:

Premillennialism "was extensively held in the Early Church, how extensively is not definitely known" (Things to Come, p. 373, quoting Allis in Prophecy and the Church, p. 238). Allis also pointed out that the Anabaptists during the Reformation notably were premil.

Was not Augustine also pre-mil before he changed his mind when Rome was conquered?

Polycarp was pre-mil.

 

[John of Japan]

Was not Augustine also pre-mil before he changed his mind when Rome was conquered?

Polycarp was pre-mil.

I'm not sure about Augustine, but you're right about Polycarp.

 

[agedman]

It is important that there are those who outline the historical aspects of the Scriptures into eras, scocial interactions, economies, dispensations, covenants, or other schemes.

No single scheme is without weakness or detractors.

Such are at best tools to use when approaching any great work which encompasses millennium of histories.

Just like any great work, there must be a away to concisely point to a period of time.

As it pertains to the Scriptures, there are natural divisions that can be employed. Such would perhaps include:
The creation and The Garden
Pre Noah
Pre Moses
Pre Saul
Pre Christ
Pre Mill
Pre eternity

 

[TCassidy]

As it pertains to the Scriptures, there are natural divisions that can be employed.

Yes. But I prefer it the way God divided it.

1. The preparation for and the establishment of the Old Covenant, and life under that Covenant. We call that The Old Testament.

2. The preparation for and the establishment of the New Covenant, and life under that Covenant. We call that The New Testament.

3. The preparation for and the establishment of the Mediatorial Kingdom, and life under that Kingdom, on earth. We call that the Millennium.

 

[TCassidy]

I'm not sure about Augustine

Augustine seemed to start out as being PreMil, (Sermon 259.2 dated around 393) and seemed to accept the 7 periods of 1000 years each (octavus ergo iste dies in fine saeculi novam vitam significat: septimus quietem futuram sanctorum in hac terra - The eighth day is the end of the world means a new life in the seventh to rest in this holy land of the future) but was repulsed by the statements of some radical Chilliasts (probably Donatists) who seemed to believe the Millennium was going to be a time of no restraint and the unbridled satisfaction of lust and desire.

As Augustine was a man who believed God's Reign would result in perfect holiness he was repulsed by the radical Chilliast he encountered.

He probably shifted to a form of Amillennialism seeing the "Kingdom" as being the rule of Christ in the hearts of men.