For amillenial brothers....thoughts?

[Iconoclast]

The Kingdom of god was in their midst, as in the person of Christ, and all who believe in Him become part of that Kingdom, but His first advent was to come as the suffering servant of the lord, but second coming will be as King, and to rule the nations under his messianic reign, with rod of iron...

And THAT is the time israel will ahve their Kingdom restored, as they will have the messiah king over them!

You like DHK resist what was already shown in scripture;
jn 12:
12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,
13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,

15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.16 These things understood not his disciples at the first:

they did not understand...at first, like you and other dispensationalists now-
now look what it says;

but when Jesus was glorified,

then remembered they that these things were written of him,

and that they had done these things unto him.

 

[Greektim]

The Kingdom of god was in their midst, as in the person of Christ, and all who believe in Him become part of that Kingdom, but His first advent was to come as the suffering servant of the lord, but second coming will be as King, and to rule the nations under his messianic reign, with rod of iron...

And THAT is the time israel will ahve their Kingdom restored, as they will have the messiah king over them!

So your "literal" hermeneutic equates the reign of God w/ the person Jesus?

 

[Yeshua1]

So your "literal" hermeneutic equates the reign of God w/ the person Jesus?

he is the King of His Kingdom, correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

You like DHK resist what was already shown in scripture;
jn 12:
12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,
13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,

15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.16 These things understood not his disciples at the first:

they did not understand...at first, like you and other dispensationalists now-
now look what it says;

but when Jesus was glorified,

then remembered they that these things were written of him,

and that they had done these things unto him.

later on the same crowd were yelling to crucify him though!

First coming as as suffering servant of God, as messiah, second coming will be as the king over isreal and whole earth!

 

[Iconoclast]

Y1

later on the same crowd were yelling to crucify him though!

There was an elect remnant...they worshipped Him as King.

First coming as as suffering servant of God, as messiah, second coming will be as the king over isreal and whole earth!

Because the nature of the Kingdom was different in character does not mean it did not begin;

Here is Ken Gentry;

In Solomon's glorious Psalm we find a prophetic pledge that Christ "shall have dominion from sea to sea." And he promises this gracious worldwide victory of the Christian faith in time and on earth "while the sun and moon endure" (72:5) and despite the existence of those "enemies" (72:9) who would "afflict" and "oppress" (72:2, 4).

Under the gracious sway of his gospel, Christ will cause "the righteous to flourish" (72:7) and bring "peace to the people" (Psa. 72:5). Resulting from this righteousness and peace will come "abundance" and "flourishing" prosperity in all the earth (72:16). Ultimately, "all nations [will] call him blessed" (72:17) so that "the whole earth [will] be filled with his glory" (72:19).

Such is the postmillennial hope. Christ will return after millennial conditions prevail upon the earth (hence, post-millennialism), not before them (as in the popular pre-millennial system). The millennial blessings arise under the influence of the gospel, not because of Armageddon.

Though many evangelicals today are concerned about being Left Behind before the future collapses into absolute chaos, the postmillennialist is optimistic that He Shall Have Dominion throughout the earth. Rather than adopting "I'll Fly Away" as their anthem, postmillennialists prefer "Onward Christian Soldiers."

 

[DHK]

DHK

Gal4:27-28 explains which one is in control and active

You simply quoted this passage. It doesn't deny the existence of an earthly millennial kingdom that Christ will rule over.

Jesus has already come the first time to set up His Kingdom.
He came to earthly Jerusalem [mt21....the king came to zion} they rejected Him, he rejected them, and ascended into the heavenly Zion and Jerusalem to reign.

1. When Jesus came the first time, all, including his disciples, were looking for an earthly kingdom. The Jews were disappointed that that earthly kingdom never materialized. The very fact they were looking for one indicates that their understanding of Scripture teaches one.
2. Jerusalem has always been in existence long before David's time. Jesus coming to a city that was there more than a thousand years old was not of historical importance. He was born in Bethlehem. He came to Bethlehem.
When he entered into Jerusalem he knew that the purpose of that coming was to die. One week after "Palm Sunday" he died. One week is not equal to a thousand year reign.
3. He came to reign in an earthly Jerusalem on the throne of David, seated in the earthly Jerusalem, where all the actual nations of the world would come from all over the world and worship him. That hasn't happened yet. It will be a rule for one thousand years, as is mentioned no less than six times in a span of seven verses in Revelation 20:1-7.
4. He will come to Mount Olivet and the mountain will split in two causing a valley between the two resulting mountains (Zech.14:1-4). At that time all the enemies of Israel will be defeated and Israel shall be saved. That has not yet happened.
5. He has never reigned on earth. The earth's kingdom is the kingdom of Satan, the god of this world, as Scripture teaches us very clearly.

Well far from being ashamed....this has turned into another opportunity to point out how you miss verse after verse....this is embarrassing for you DHK...let me show you exactly why
yes...the question is about the Kingdom in which they like you lacked understanding about.
In jn 16[before the cross] Jesus explained that they could not bear all truth now.....that is ...when he the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth......
newsflash...This was speaking of the day of Pentecost....[after the 40 days and ascension].....so why should I be ashamed again

Why? Because you cannot read into Scripture things that are not there. There is no indication that he taught anything about the coming kingdom to his disciples. Nothing indicates that. In fact the context indicates that he was teaching them about his impending death, burial, and resurrection. Then after that he was teaching them about the fact that he would depart from them, and he would send them the Comforter, the Holy Spirit in his place. That was what he was teaching them.
In Acts one, when they asked about the kingdom, they were rebuked for asking. It wasn't their business. It was their business was to evangelize. The Kingdom was not of major importance. That was not part of his teaching to them, not at that time. So your exposition of that passage is nothing by eisigesis. You are simply reading into it what you want to.

Far from it...it is the EXACT fulfillment of it....

My statement to you was:

The "bear them now," was quite some time ago, long before the death, burial and resurrection. This is way out of context.
--Your response to this statement does not make sense. How does "you cannot bear them now," have any relevance to Acts chapter one, where they were rebuked for asking about the kingdom. The kingdom never came.

I am not a mind reader....but I do read scriptures, and they tell us exactly,let me show you-

jn14:25-29

jn16:12:13
Do you get it now DHK?.....all truth, things to come, bring to their remembrance all that He taught them.....

There is not one thing, not one verse here that says he taught them anything about a coming kingdom--absolutely nothing.
He would guide them into all truth--a promise that the Holy Spirit would guide them into the truth that God wanted them to pen while writing the Scriptures. It is not applicable to us today. Not one of us has "all truth."
--You post as if you know what Jesus taught them, as if you know what was in Jesus mind when he said "you cannot bear them now," but you don't.

I do not think so. I connect the dots scripturally.
I see scripture as a flow...I do not fragment it as your system does, so it should be no surprise that we are not on the same page.

The Scriptures teach of a coming Kingdom. Revelation teaches of an exact period of time of one thousand years. Zechariah teaches exactly where Jesus will come back. Isaiah teaches what harmony nature will have (the wolf and the lamb will lie down together).
These things have not happened yet. You are connecting the wrong dots.

They asked because the Spirit was not given as it was on Pentecost. the Spirit had been ministering to them before the cross.....but not as he did after as promised by Jesus in jn14-16.

They asked. Jesus rebuked them, but didn't deny that a kingdom was coming. He never said that the kingdom had come. What had come was the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, not the Kingdom.

It means the reign of the heavens extends over all the earth .Jesus ascending to the heavenly Jerusalem and Zion is sending forth His law to all the earth as in isa2.

"Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done,on earth as it is in heaven."
How can that be when the scripture itself says that Satan is "the god of this earth" (not Jesus), the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience."
It is very evident that Christ is not reigning over this world.
What does Isaiah 2 say:
Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
This is on the earth and it is still future.
Never has there been a time in history where all the nations of the world have come to the Lord's house. When has that ever happened, Icon? When? Does ISIS come to the house of the Lord? Last I heard they are burying Christians alive.

It was welcomed by the Spiritual elect remnant.....and it began and progresses even now.

The kingdom was not welcomed. The Holy Spirit was welcomed. The disciples asked about the coming of the kingdom and were rebuked for even suggesting it!

jn 12:12-16
16 These things understood not his disciples at the first:
they did not understand...at first, like you and other dispensationalists now-
now look what it says;

What they understood was how this triumphal entry would relate to his impending death one week later, and then three days after that his glorious resurrection, and then 40 days after that his ascension into heaven.

but when Jesus was glorified,
then remembered they that these things were written of him,
and that they had done these things unto him.

You are simply quoting scripture here. That doesn't make your point.
They remembered about his death, burial, resurrection, and ascension into heaven. There is not one reference about his kingdom.
Everything that we read about his kingdom is in Acts one. Jesus rebuked them for even suggesting it. They were to concentrate on evangelism and not be concerned with the kingdom.

 

[DHK]

My previous quote in jn 12 shows you conclusion to be once again...mistaken this is very gloomy your worldview looks like defeat.

It is not defeat. It is what the Scriptures say:
"When I come, will I find faith?"
When the Son of Man comes, it will be like the time of Noah; they shall be eating, drinking, giving and being given in marriage.
He shall come in a time when they know not--as a thief in the night.
This know also perilous times shall come.
Then shall that Wicked one be revealed.

Satan is a real person; he is alive and doing well leading many astray. He is as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour (1Pet.5:8); the enemy of all unrighteousness; whom resist steadfast in the faith. He is the god of this world, and doesn't rest. He knows he has but a short time.

those perilous times came in ad70...

Have you ever witnessed a hail storm with each hail stone of approximately 100 pounds. That is one of the events to take place in the Great Tribulation. It will make the destruction of Jerusalem seem like a walk in the park.

I have no where denied the second coming..i have asked you a dozen times not to bear false witness....this is how I know you are struggling and frustrated.

I am not struggling or frustrated. I never intend to bear false witness. Correct me if I am bearing false witness.
Here is how I understand the Second Coming.
He came a first time--His birth.
When He comes a second time it will be for two reasons and in two phases.
1. The rapture will occur when he comes for his own--the bride of Christ.
2. The Second Advent will occur when he comes at the end of seven years Tribulation to save his elect (Israel) from her enemies and also to set up His Kingdom of one thousand years and to rule on earth at that time.
Now if you deny the rapture and deny the earthly Kingdom, what would you believe in a Second Coming for. What purpose would he come for? There is nothing left for His Coming--no reason.

So help me here. In your view why and when is Christ coming.

I understand. I have seen you do this with O.R. and Bosley and others

Do what? What are you accusing me of?

col2;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Yet you cannot deny Scripture. Satan is a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. Peter said that.
He is the god of this world. Paul said that.
Are you not denying that Satan is a very powerful being present on this earth today, and Paul taught that we have to do battle with him. Read Eph.6:11-18. Our battle is with Satan himself.

You bear false witness once again...sadly.

Please explain your position more clearly to me.

 

[PreachTony]

There was an elect remnant...they worshipped Him as King.

To say that those that worshipped Him upon the triumphal entry into Jerusalem were not the same as those that cried for His crucifixion simply because they were "elect" seems a easy way to dismiss the obvious duality of humankind. Some people worshipped Him from start to finish. Some walked in the faith and then departed. Some started in the wrong and then came into the light. This is the nature of mankind. We have, in essence, two entities at war in ourselves daily: the carnal man and the spiritual man. The flesh is at enmity with the Spirit.

Remember, too, the people crying for Christ's crucifixion were not as educated as we are today. They didn't have the access to religious texts that we have today. They were bound to a priestly system that required the leaders of the Temple to tell them the Word of God. Unfortunately, as we see so often (thanks to that dual nature of man), the Temple priesthood was easily corrupted by the power they wielded. This is still evident today in the people who kowtow to the priesthood of the Catholic church. We know that we have the ability to come boldly before the Throne of Grace, as God rent the veil of the Temple, opening the Holy of Holies to all who would come through the death, burial and resurrection of His son, Jesus Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

Y1


There was an elect remnant...they worshipped Him as King.

Because the nature of the Kingdom was different in character does not mean it did not begin;

Here is Ken Gentry;

In Solomon's glorious Psalm we find a prophetic pledge that Christ "shall have dominion from sea to sea." And he promises this gracious worldwide victory of the Christian faith in time and on earth "while the sun and moon endure" (72:5) and despite the existence of those "enemies" (72:9) who would "afflict" and "oppress" (72:2, 4).

Under the gracious sway of his gospel, Christ will cause "the righteous to flourish" (72:7) and bring "peace to the people" (Psa. 72:5). Resulting from this righteousness and peace will come "abundance" and "flourishing" prosperity in all the earth (72:16). Ultimately, "all nations [will] call him blessed" (72:17) so that "the whole earth [will] be filled with his glory" (72:19).

Such is the postmillennial hope. Christ will return after millennial conditions prevail upon the earth (hence, post-millennialism), not before them (as in the popular pre-millennial system). The millennial blessings arise under the influence of the gospel, not because of Armageddon.

Though many evangelicals today are concerned about being Left Behind before the future collapses into absolute chaos, the postmillennialist is optimistic that He Shall Have Dominion throughout the earth. Rather than adopting "I'll Fly Away" as their anthem, postmillennialists prefer "Onward Christian Soldiers."

There is NO biblcal support taht the Church, by preaching the Gospel, will take over the earth for Jesus though, as the Bible expressly states to us that in the end, times will be tough and hard, so much in fact, that if jesus did not come back for his elect, even they would perish!

Isis has not yet gotten the memo either that Jeus reigns over them yet...

 

[Iconoclast]

Y1

There is NO biblcal support taht the Church, by preaching the Gospel, will take over the earth for Jesus though,

You are asking for biblical support? Sure.....as soon as you respond biblically to the last two posts in which you offer nothing on the verses....respond to these first;
1]

Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
You like DHK resist what was already shown in scripture;
jn 12:
12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,
13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,

15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.16 These things understood not his disciples at the first:

they did not understand...at first, like you and other dispensationalists now-
now look what it says;

but when Jesus was glorified,

then remembered they that these things were written of him,

and that they had done these things unto him.

Zion's King...did come, they worshipped Him...

2] In your last response.....you ignored the verses from psalm 72.....you did not respond at all, except to offer a vague denial.

Here is Ken Gentry;

In Solomon's glorious Psalm we find a prophetic pledge that Christ "shall have dominion from sea to sea." And he promises this gracious worldwide victory of the Christian faith in time and on earth "while the sun and moon endure" (72:5) and despite the existence of those "enemies" (72:9) who would "afflict" and "oppress" (72:2, 4).

Under the gracious sway of his gospel, Christ will cause "the righteous to flourish" (72:7) and bring "peace to the people" (Psa. 72:5). Resulting from this righteousness and peace will come "abundance" and "flourishing" prosperity in all the earth (72:16). Ultimately, "all nations [will] call him blessed" (72:17) so that "the whole earth [will] be filled with his glory" (72:19).

Such is the postmillennial hope. Christ will return after millennial conditions prevail upon the earth (hence, post-millennialism), not before them (as in the popular pre-millennial system). The millennial blessings arise under the influence of the gospel, not because of Armageddon.

Though many evangelicals today are concerned about being Left Behind before the future collapses into absolute chaos, the postmillennialist is optimistic that He Shall Have Dominion throughout the earth. Rather than adopting "I'll Fly Away" as their anthem, postmillennialists prefer "Onward Christian Soldiers."


respond to the verses that say dominion is from sea to sea in the midst of His enemies:thumbsup:

as the Bible expressly states to us that in the end, times will be tough and hard, so much in fact, that if jesus did not come back for his elect, even they would perish!

This was spoken about the "end" of the jewish theocracy". Those who lived before the destruction of the temple were warned....

Isis has not yet gotten the memo either that Jeus reigns over them yet...

Isis, cults, non Christian heathen exist.....as the gospel spreads...they say- we will not have this man to reign over us. However he is reigning with a rod of iron rule, no idle word will go unpunished.
nevertheless on the last day, every knee will bow,and every tongue will confess.....They will get the memo at that time ,and remember it for all eternity in hell.:wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

PreachTony

Hello PT
Welcome to the BB.

To say that those that worshipped Him upon the triumphal entry into Jerusalem were not the same as those that cried for His crucifixion simply because they were "elect" seems a easy way to dismiss the obvious duality of humankind.

I mention the elect remnant as that Apostle Paul does in Romans-quoting from isa.1:9, 10:20-23....when the assyrians were used to smite them

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

Some people worshipped Him from start to finish. Some walked in the faith and then departed. Some started in the wrong and then came into the light. This is the nature of mankind.

I do not share your understanding on this.

We have, in essence, two entities at war in ourselves daily: the carnal man and the spiritual man.

No....there is only the Spiritual man.
There are only two men identified in scripture.....the natural or carnal man....is unsaved

The Spiritual man is a Christian, saved, and mortifying the flesh.
romans 8;
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

The flesh is at enmity with the Spirit.

yes:thumbs:


Those believers were believing and quoting Zech9:9and psalm 118...as the King came to Zion.

4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,

5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.

6 And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them,

7 And brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon.

8 And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way.

9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.

10 And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this?



psalm 118;

21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation.

22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.

23 This is the Lord's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

24 This is the day which the Lord hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.

25 Save now, I beseech thee, O Lord: O Lord, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.

26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the Lord: we have blessed you out of the house of the Lord.

 

[DHK]

Y1

respond to the verses that say dominion is from sea to sea in the midst of His enemies:thumbsup:

Hey, Icon,

One of the founders of Canada used that verse to give Canada its name: The Dominion of Canada.

[FONT=&quot]Psalms 72:8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.[/FONT]

The Lord gave us this land. It goes from sea to sea. At that time the rivers as far as they could see went to the ends of the earth, and if you took all the rivers of Canada and lined them up in a straight line they probably would go from one end of the earth to the other.

Of course that verse speaks of Christ's millennial reign when his land will be even greater than Canada. It will encompass the entire world. Israel does not go from sea to sea. And its rivers do not go from one end of the earth to the other. But in the Millennial Kingdom they will.

 

[PreachTony]

PreachTony

Hello PT
Welcome to the BB.

Thank you for the greeting. I've been lurking for a while. I did the customary thread on the Welcome forum.

I do not share your understanding on this.

I'm speaking of those who walked in the faith, like Demas, but departed because they loved the world more. Such things happen. Unless we believe Paul to be such a poor judge of character that he willing brought along someone who never sought to believe nor ever showed signs of the faith, then Demas surrendered to the lusts of the flesh, which we are warned against, and returned to a life of sin in the world.

No....there is only the Spiritual man.
There are only two men identified in scripture.....the natural or carnal man....is unsaved

The Spiritual man is a Christian, saved, and mortifying the flesh.
romans 8;
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

I mean that we struggle daily with sin. Unless you want to contend that a saved person never again sins nor has to deal with sin in this life, which is not a position I'm willing to take. Otherwise a means of repentance after salvation would not have been given.

I happen to believe that a saved person is tempted by the devil and the world all the more, so that that person can be used by the world as an exalted example should they fall. Look how the media went after someone like Tim Tebow, who professed faith in Christ. They wanted him to fall, because it would justify sinful living.

 

[Yeshua1]

Thank you for the greeting. I've been lurking for a while. I did the customary thread on the Welcome forum.



I'm speaking of those who walked in the faith, like Demas, but departed because they loved the world more. Such things happen. Unless we believe Paul to be such a poor judge of character that he willing brought along someone who never sought to believe nor ever showed signs of the faith, then Demas surrendered to the lusts of the flesh, which we are warned against, and returned to a life of sin in the world.



I mean that we struggle daily with sin. Unless you want to contend that a saved person never again sins nor has to deal with sin in this life, which is not a position I'm willing to take. Otherwise a means of repentance after salvation would not have been given.

I happen to believe that a saved person is tempted by the devil and the world all the more, so that that person can be used by the world as an exalted example should they fall. Look how the media went after someone like Tim Tebow, who professed faith in Christ. They wanted him to fall, because it would justify sinful living.

Our brother icon does not see that after salvation we still have that sin nature still remaining, so his take on this will be a nit different then yours!

 

[Iconoclast]

PreachTony

I'm speaking of those who walked in the faith, like Demas, but departed because they loved the world more.

Yes...Demas was an apostate.

Such things happen.

sadly,,,yes:thumbs:

Unless we believe Paul to be such a poor judge of character that he willing brought along someone who never sought to believe nor ever showed signs of the faith, then Demas surrendered to the lusts of the flesh, which we are warned against, and returned to a life of sin in the world.

An apostate is a false professor who tries to live the Christian life in the strength of the flesh. They fail most every time.

I mean that we struggle daily with sin

.

yes we do.:thumbs:

Unless you want to contend that a saved person never again sins nor has to deal with sin in this life, which is not a position I'm willing to take. Otherwise a means of repentance after salvation would not have been given.

correct.

I happen to believe that a saved person is tempted by the devil and the world all the more, so that that person can be used by the world as an exalted example should they fall. Look how the media went after someone like Tim Tebow, who professed faith in Christ. They wanted him to fall, because it would justify sinful living.

:thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

[DHK;

Of course that verse speaks of Christ's millennial reign when his land will be even greater than Canada

.

yes...exactly...it is spreading worldwide as we speak...

It will encompass the entire world. Israel does not go from sea to sea. And its rivers do not go from one end of the earth to the other. But in the Millennial Kingdom they will.

yes..it is spreading, but not complete yet....
6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?

7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

You simply quoted this passage. It doesn't deny the existence of an earthly millennial kingdom that Christ will rule over.

What do you think Galatians 4 is dealing with? The heavenly reign and rule extends to earth now. All Christians are a part of it. We are free to serve in the Kingdom now.

1. When Jesus came the first time, all, including his disciples, were looking for an earthly kingdom. The Jews were disappointed that that earthly kingdom never materialized. The very fact they were looking for one indicates that their understanding of Scripture teaches one.

They had a wrong understanding of the nature of the Kingdom. Because they had a wrong understanding does not equate to scripture teaching it.

2. Jerusalem has always been in existence long before David's time. Jesus coming to a city that was there more than a thousand years old was not of historical importance

.

Jesus triumphal entry fulfilled the type set forth by David;

2Sam5
4 David was thirty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned forty years.

5 In Hebron he reigned over Judah seven years and six months: and in Jerusalem he reigned thirty and three years over all Israel and Judah.

6 And the king and his men went to Jerusalem unto the Jebusites, the inhabitants of the land: which spake unto David, saying, Except thou take away the blind and the lame, thou shalt not come in hither: thinking, David cannot come in hither.

7 Nevertheless David took the strong hold of Zion: the same is the city of David

Zech 9 informs us that Jesus was The King coming to Zion.

When he entered into Jerusalem he knew that the purpose of that coming was to die. One week after "Palm Sunday" he died. One week is not equal to a thousand year reign.

He came to provide Covenant redemption.The thousand year reign is symbolic of the full complete reign, until the last day.

3. He came to reign in an earthly Jerusalem on the throne of David,

That is not what Peter says;

29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

seated in the earthly Jerusalem, where all the actual nations of the world would come from all over the world and worship him. That hasn't happened yet. It will be a rule for one thousand years, as is mentioned no less than six times in a span of seven verses in Revelation 20:1-7.

It is mentioned 6x that is true...but not once in rev20 does it say He is reigning from earthly Jerusalem....not once.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[DHK]

DHK
What do you think Galatians 4 is dealing with? The heavenly reign and rule extends to earth now. All Christians are a part of it. We are free to serve in the Kingdom now.

There is nothing in Galatians 4 about a kingdom, much less a Millennial Kingdom. In chapter 4 Paul gives an appeal not to turn to legalism, but rather to remember their relationship with Christ. He asks them to consider his relationship to them, and then ends with a Biblical illustration. There is nothing there about a kingdom.

They had a wrong understanding of the nature of the Kingdom. Because they had a wrong understanding does not equate to scripture teaching it.

The twelve apostles--after having grown up in traditional synagogue teaching and Temple worship, and then being taught personally by the Lord Jesus Christ for three and a half years, and then witnessing the resurrection, and receiving his instructions just before he ascends into heaven which they also witness--you say they had a wrong understanding and you have a right one.
--I would rather believe the disciples on this one, not you. Their words also became inscripurated as the inspired words of God. Yours are not.

Jesus triumphal entry fulfilled the type set forth by David;

2Sam5
4 David was thirty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned forty years.

You can make the Bible say anything you want.
Actually the allegory fits just as well this way:
Jesus was 30 years old when he began his ministry, and he was tempted by the devil for 40 days and 40 nights. The numbers fit don't they. But Christ was certainly not reigning.

5 In Hebron he reigned over Judah seven years and six months: and in Jerusalem he reigned thirty and three years over all Israel and Judah.

6 And the king and his men went to Jerusalem unto the Jebusites, the inhabitants of the land: which spake unto David, saying, Except thou take away the blind and the lame, thou shalt not come in hither: thinking, David cannot come in hither.

7 Nevertheless David took the strong hold of Zion: the same is the city of David

Zech 9 informs us that Jesus was The King coming to Zion.

You really have to string these scriptures together to make them say anything. Why not concentrate on the first seven verses of chapter 14 of Zechariah, and faithfully expound, verse by verse that chapter. Then the Word would make some sense.
It tells one how Jesus will come, where he will come, even when he will come (last part of the tribulation when the enemies of Israel are come up against her), and how those enemies will be defeated. 500 years before the birth of Christ all these questions were already answered. There will be a definite physical earthly kingdom of a thousand years when all of Israel's enemies will be subdued. Never in history has all of Israel's enemies been subdued.

He came to provide Covenant redemption.The thousand year reign is symbolic of the full complete reign, until the last day.

The only covenant he makes with believers is the personal relationship he has with each of us.
Otherwise his covenants are with Israel, as Paul said they were.
Words have meanings. The very fact that the Lord mentions "thousand" six times in seven verses disproves any idea of this being symbolic "the thousand years" is not symbolic. "Blessed is he who has part in the first resurrection....and they shall reign with him a thousand years." There is no symbolism there. That is exactly what is going to happen.

That is not what Peter says;

29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

This is what I said:

3. He came to reign in an earthly Jerusalem on the throne of David,

To which you respond with a passage about the crucifixion of Christ. The two are not related. Why not look in a concordance and find relevant passages of "the throne of David"? This passage isn't even relevant to the Kingdom.

It is mentioned 6x that is true...but not once in rev20 does it say He is reigning from earthly Jerusalem....not once.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The thrones are on heaven.
One does not see souls. The word means "persons." They are real people sitting on real thrones on a real earth. He was told that they "were beheaded..." That was their past. This is after the first resurrection. They have their resurrected bodies; received them at the rapture, and now are reigning with Christ for a thousand years on earth.
Compare with Zech.14:1-5.
Also compare with Rev.19, and the coming of Christ to earth with his saints with him.

 

[Yeshua1]

DHK



What do you think Galatians 4 is dealing with? The heavenly reign and rule extends to earth now. All Christians are a part of it. We are free to serve in the Kingdom now.




They had a wrong understanding of the nature of the Kingdom. Because they had a wrong understanding does not equate to scripture teaching it.


.

Jesus triumphal entry fulfilled the type set forth by David;

2Sam5
4 David was thirty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned forty years.

5 In Hebron he reigned over Judah seven years and six months: and in Jerusalem he reigned thirty and three years over all Israel and Judah.

6 And the king and his men went to Jerusalem unto the Jebusites, the inhabitants of the land: which spake unto David, saying, Except thou take away the blind and the lame, thou shalt not come in hither: thinking, David cannot come in hither.

7 Nevertheless David took the strong hold of Zion: the same is the city of David

Zech 9 informs us that Jesus was The King coming to Zion.



He came to provide Covenant redemption.The thousand year reign is symbolic of the full complete reign, until the last day.



That is not what Peter says;

29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.




It is mentioned 6x that is true...but not once in rev20 does it say He is reigning from earthly Jerusalem....not once.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Strange, the prophets all foresaw an earthly Kingdom of Messiah reigning, bring peace upon this earth, why don't you?

 

[Iconoclast]

Y1

Strange, the prophets all foresaw an earthly Kingdom of Messiah reigning, bring peace upon this earth, why don't you?

The only thing that is strange is you have not answered anything you were asked to respond to,and yet you ask another question as if It is okay for you not to answer, not offer any scriptural support, and yet expect a response...
that is strange. here ...just to remind you-

Y1

Quote:
There is NO biblcal support taht the Church, by preaching the Gospel, will take over the earth for Jesus though

,
You are asking for biblical support? Sure.....as soon as you respond biblically to the last two posts in which you offer nothing on the verses....respond to these first;
1]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
You like DHK resist what was already shown in scripture;
jn 12:
12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,
13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,

15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.16 These things understood not his disciples at the first:

they did not understand...at first, like you and other dispensationalists now-
now look what it says;

but when Jesus was glorified,

then remembered they that these things were written of him,

and that they had done these things unto him.
Zion's King...did come, they worshipped Him...

2] In your last response.....you ignored the verses from psalm 72.....you did not respond at all, except to offer a vague denial.

Here is Ken Gentry;

In Solomon's glorious Psalm we find a prophetic pledge that Christ "shall have dominion from sea to sea." And he promises this gracious worldwide victory of the Christian faith in time and on earth "while the sun and moon endure" (72:5) and despite the existence of those "enemies" (72:9) who would "afflict" and "oppress" (72:2, 4).

Under the gracious sway of his gospel, Christ will cause "the righteous to flourish" (72:7) and bring "peace to the people" (Psa. 72:5). Resulting from this righteousness and peace will come "abundance" and "flourishing" prosperity in all the earth (72:16). Ultimately, "all nations [will] call him blessed" (72:17) so that "the whole earth [will] be filled with his glory" (72:19).

Such is the postmillennial hope. Christ will return after millennial conditions prevail upon the earth (hence, post-millennialism), not before them (as in the popular pre-millennial system). The millennial blessings arise under the influence of the gospel, not because of Armageddon.

Though many evangelicals today are concerned about being Left Behind before the future collapses into absolute chaos, the postmillennialist is optimistic that He Shall Have Dominion throughout the earth. Rather than adopting "I'll Fly Away" as their anthem, postmillennialists prefer "Onward Christian Soldiers."


respond to the verses that say dominion is from sea to sea in the midst of His enemies
Quote:
as the Bible expressly states to us that in the end, times will be tough and hard, so much in fact, that if jesus did not come back for his elect, even they would perish!
This was spoken about the "end" of the jewish theocracy". Those who lived before the destruction of the temple were warned....

Quote:
Isis has not yet gotten the memo either that Jeus reigns over them yet...

Isis, cults, non Christian heathen exist.....as the gospel spreads...they say- we will not have this man to reign over us. However he is reigning with a rod of iron rule, no idle word will go unpunished.
nevertheless on the last day, every knee will bow,and every tongue will confess.....They will get the memo at that time ,and remember it for all eternity in hell.