Free Will

[MB]

You have not comprehended what I said. I did not say scripture was unnecessary. I said you interjected yourself into a conversation of which you did not understand. Your comment was not necessary because my question to him was rhetorical. It was only intended to make a point. Please read things before responding to posts.

Everyone is wrong in your opinion. Your the only right one here. Does anything that is not derogatory ever get said by you? .
This verse below you use to support the trinity was inserted in your version of the Bible. The original only says;
" because three are who are testifying"
The rest of this verse as you posted should be in italics. Which means the Italics were added centuries later. It does not prove the trinity. The best of it's proof in part is when Christ said
Joh_10:30 I and the Father are one.' It makes sense that God is three persons in one. There is not three god's, but God is one The Father, the Son, and the, Holy Spirit.
I'm not implying that you don't believe in the trinity as you do me. I'm saying there is no one verse that proves it with out doubt. How ever the scriptures as a whole certainly brings it out.
MB

 

[MB]

This is interesting.

The poster desires an omniscient God, but not so omniscient as to know who, when, where, ... concerning salvation.

The poster desires an omnipresent God, but not so omnipresent as to know who, when, where, ... sin occurs.

The poster wants an omnipotent God, but not so omnipotent as to be in control.

What kind of God does this poster want?

hmmmm

The God I have living inside of me is LOVE. He has nothing to do with sin. He can't even touch it. Your problem is you just have no truth.

The God you want is one who hates men.
The God you want is a totalitarian. Who creates sin
The God you want get's glory from the death and torture of those who are not chosen by Him. nor responsible for not believing in Him.
Your God makes you do everything you do. Even sin
The God you want does everything for you
You're just a puppet on strings.
MB

 

[Revmitchell]

Everyone is wrong in your opinion. Your the only right one here. Does anything that is not derogatory ever get said by you? .
This verse below you use to support the trinity was inserted in your version of the Bible. The original only says;
" because three are who are testifying"
The rest of this verse as you posted should be in italics. Which means the Italics were added centuries later. It does not prove the trinity. The best of it's proof in part is when Christ said
Joh_10:30 I and the Father are one.' It makes sense that God is three persons in one. There is not three god's, but God is one The Father, the Son, and the, Holy Spirit.
I'm not implying that you don't believe in the trinity as you do me. I'm saying there is no one verse that proves it with out doubt. How ever the scriptures as a whole certainly brings it out.
MB

Sigh, first I did not use a verse to support the Trinity he did so any objection by you to his use of those verses needs to be taken up with him not me.. Second, I asked a question to you about the Trinity only to illustrate that sometimes words we use such as Trinity and Sovereign, while not found in scripture, are used to describe what is in scripture. You insisted that the word sovereign was not in the bible. My point was that does not make its use incorrect. I never said at any time that there was a problem with the Trinity.

 

[Particular]

Yea I recently explained vs. 13 in another thread. You are wrong.

An assertion without an argument is an empty opinion. Thanks for your assertion without an argument, Rev.

 

[agedman]

Your so called typically was a strawman as I did not make an argument for receive. And the ability to believe is a different topic than receive. We do have the ability to believe but only after a few things happen:

Rom 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
Rom 10:15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?”
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

1. In order to believe one must be sent with the gospel
2. In order to believe one must be presented the gospel (preached to).
3. In order to believe one must hear the gospel.

Then, as it says in John 1:12, we have the right to become the sons of God!

Now with regards to the receiving of Christ, there is nothing in John 1:12 that suggests that there is an inability to believe or receive outside f first being regenerated. The language is not there. In vs. 13 it says that salvation is the sovereign act of God. If God never decided to save man than man, without God, would never be able to be saved. That, however, does not mean that man has a total inability. That is eisegesis and is unnecessary.

I do not disagree. \

Interestingly, we would agree that outside of (or without) first being regenerated there is no human ability to believe unto salvation.

That is that of the inability of all humankind.

Outside of the direct and purposed work of the Holy Spirit along with the presentation of the Gospel, no person is redeemed. No person has the ability to be redeemed.

 

[InTheLight]

This is interesting.

The poster desires an omniscient God, but not so omniscient as to know who, when, where, ... concerning salvation.

The poster desires an omnipresent God, but not so omnipresent as to know who, when, where, ... sin occurs.

The poster wants an omnipotent God, but not so omnipotent as to be in control.

What kind of God does this poster want?

hmmmm

Big #4.

 

[Iconoclast]

Genesis 4:7 NLT
[7] You will be accepted if you do what is right. But if you refuse to do what is right, then watch out! Sin is crouching at the door, eager to control you. But you must subdue it and be its master."

Very clear choice being presented. Right at the beginning of the Bible just after the fall just in case you are into infralapsarianism. The accepting is based on what Cain does. The choice is very clearly his.

Ephesians 1:6 NLT
[6] So we praise God for the glorious grace he has poured out on us who belong to his dear Son.

Did you quote the wrong verse from your pamphlet? Nothing about people not having the ability to make choices here. I think you were trying to go after the following:

Ephesians 1:4 NLT
[4] Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes.

God did not choose us to be in Christ - God chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. See the following passage:

Genesis 6:9 NLT
[9] This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, the only blameless person living on earth at the time, and he walked in close fellowship with God.

If you did not like the Genesis verse, I’ll try another one.

Deuteronomy 30:15 NLT
[15] "Now listen! Today I am giving you a choice between life and death, between prosperity and disaster.

Choices, choices, choices . . . notice that the verse before this one is quoted by Paul in Romans.

Choice does not affect the condition of man's will all men make choices that does not mean the will is free. No Ephesians 1:6 as we have been made accepted in the Beloved

 

[MB]

I

Sigh, first I did not use a verse to support the Trinity he did so any objection by you to his use of those verses needs to be taken up with him not me.. Second, I asked a question to you about the Trinity only to illustrate that sometimes words we use such as Trinity and Sovereign, while not found in scripture, are used to describe what is in scripture. You insisted that the word sovereign was not in the bible. My point was that does not make its use incorrect. I never said at any time that there was a problem with the Trinity.

It seems to me that every response you make to me is always degrading in some way. Why not place me on your ignore list and not respond to any of my post. Your criticism is not appreciated. Neither is your boredom.
MB.

 

[Particular]

Choice does not affect the condition of man's will all men make choices that does not mean the will is free. No Ephesians 1:6 as we have been made accepted in the Beloved

Correct
Slaves make choices all the time, but that doesn't make them free.

 

[robycop3]

Election takes place before the world was created no one gets elected after the world is created

Only CERTAIN elections took place before the world was created, such as Moses, Jeremiah, & the apostles. And even THEY had to CHOOSE. However, God made them "an offer they couldn't refuse".

You completely ignored 2 Peter 3:9.

 

[Particular]

Only CERTAIN elections took place before the world was created, such as Moses, Jeremiah, & the apostles. And even THEY had to CHOOSE. However, God made them "an offer they couldn't refuse".

Ouch, now that is a claim with no biblical foundation at all.

You completely ignored 2 Peter 3:9.

Let us look at the passage.

Now, the context of Peter's writing is to encourage believer's who are suffering unjust persecution. He is giving them hope and strengthening their faith.
First, he tells them that scoffers would come, following their sinful desires.
He tells us that these scoffers deliberately overlook a fact. God destroyed the world by water and wiped out the evilness of mankind, except for Noah and his family.

He then tells those under persecution to have faith and patience. They should remember a fact. The fact is this:
God is not slow, but he is patient toward...you. Who is the you? Is it the world? No. It is "To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:" (2 Peter 1:1).
God is not slow, he is patient toward you.
Why?
Because God is "not wishing that any (of you) should perish, but that all should reach repentance."
This means there are more to come who will "obtain a faith of equal standing" with Peter.
What will happen when all these people reach repentance?
God will come like a thief and God will burn up the heavens and the earth. No water for this judgment of humanity. This time fire will be used. The day of the Lord will have arrived and the saints who cried out for that day will rejoice. Evil will be destroyed forever.

So, you clearly have zero clue what Peter is talking about. You have twisted one verse so that it is wrongly interpreted and applied. You need to stop your abuse of God's word and repent.

2 Peter 3:1-10
This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.

They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.”

For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

 

[loDebar]

You have not comprehended what I said. I did not say scripture was unnecessary. I said you interjected yourself into a conversation of which you did not understand. Your comment was not necessary because my question to him was rhetorical. It was only intended to make a point. Please read things before responding to posts.

there was only a question and nothing to do with the posts or line of thought. Why pose a rabbit trail?
How does the Trinity help us understand free will?

 

[Revmitchell]

...............

 

[loDebar]

You have not comprehended what I said. I did not say scripture was unnecessary. I said you interjected yourself into a conversation of which you did not understand. Your comment was not necessary because my question to him was rhetorical. It was only intended to make a point. Please read things before responding to posts.

I did, The post was going a long way to make a point on a unrelated subject, These guys cant follow a logical sequence much less a obtuse meaning relating to the big picture which some of us follow.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Sorry, instead of want I should have said what is according to our nature. Our wills are free to choose anything that aligns with our nature.

I

Again, like I said, it depends on what you mean when you say free will.

If we "choose anything that aligns with our nature" and there are consequences related to our choice (there always are), then I maintain that our choice is not free.

I agree with Martin Luther, free will is a lie. Ref: Martin Luther on the bondage of the will : to the venerable mister Erasmus of Rotterdam, 1525

 

[Revmitchell]

I


If we "choose anything that aligns with our nature" and there are consequences related to our choice (there always are), then I maintain that our choice is not free.

I agree with Martin Luther, free will is a lie. Ref: Martin Luther on the bondage of the will : to the venerable mister Erasmus of Rotterdam, 1525

So what is our nature after we are saved? 2 cor 5:17 says we have a new nature. Yet we still sin. That's not in line with our new nature.

Fact is both before and after salvation we can act in contradiction to our nature. The gospel is sufficient to enable that.

 

[Particular]

So what is our nature after we are saved? 2 cor 5:17 says we have a new nature. Yet we still sin. That's not in line with our new nature.

Fact is both before and after salvation we can act in contradiction to our nature. The gospel is sufficient to enable that.

Romans 7:14-25 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
Romans 8:1-4,9-11 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

 

[Reformed]

Augustine of Hippo is an interesting figure in church history. Augustine came on the scene in the middle of the Patristic Age and at the end of the Western branch of the Roman Empire. Augustine was a churchman of his times. The Patristic Age was a period of mixture and error when it came to theology. Some of the theology that came out of that period was sound while some of it was not. Augustine's theology reflected that tension, so it is important to reference his conclusions carefully. One part of his theology that has withstood biblical scrutiny is his view of the human will which is sometimes referred to as the Fourfold State of Man.

Pre-fall man was able to sin and able not to sin (Latin, posse non peccare, posse peccare). Before Adam disobeyed God, he was a true moral free agent. Sin has not yet infected the human race. If Adam had not sinned he would not have died. Scripture tells us that God told Adam that if he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that he would die (Genesis 2:16-17). Conversely, if Adam did not eat of the tree he would not die but would live. Theologians call this the Covenant of Works because life was contingent on Adam's obedience. We know that Adam did eat of the tree (Genesis 3:6) and thus incurred the curse of death (Genesis 3:19). So, prior to the Fall, Adam was able not to sin and able to sin.

Post-fall man is no longer able not to sin. He is now unable not to sin (non posse, non peccare). Adam had lost the ability not to sin. Adam did not lose his ability to make choices. The choices Adam made after the Fall were freely made, although this freedom has nothing at all to do with "free will" as we commonly use the term when discussing soteriology. Sinners today also make free choices. Scripture tells us that God tempts no one (James 1:13). Sinners freely choose to sin and do so prolifically. Why? Because their spiritual nature is in a fallen state. They are considered spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1) and sons of disobedience (Ephesians 2:2). Romans 6:20 states that sinners are "slaves of sin". A slave is not free to serve another master. If left to their own devices a sinner could never seek to leave his master (sin) because he lacks the ability to do so (1 Corinthians 1:18; 2:14).

While the purpose of this thread is not about regeneration/illumination, it is the Holy Spirit that prevails upon the heart of the sinner, making him able to believe (Ephesians 2:4). The sinner does not possess the free will to believe while in his state of sin because to him the things of God are foolishness (1 Corinthians 2:14). But once God has made the sinner capable of belief, the sinner does believe and does so freely. This in keeping with the former sinner's new nature. The former sinner is now able not to sin (posse non peccare) and able to sin (posse peccare). This is the same ability that Adam possessed. The difference is that Adam was under a Covenant of Works, wherein his obedience would be rewarded with life. The believer is also rewarded with life but that life is imputed to him through the perfect obedience of Jesus Christ. Whereas Adam's sin resulted in death, the believer, when he sins, may incur God's discipline but not the same penalty as promised to Adam.

Ultimately, the believer is looking forward to the day when he will be not able to sin (non posse peccare). This will be realized in the eternal state when the remnants of the old nature are done away with.

 

[robycop3]

Ouch, now that is a claim with no biblical foundation at all.

Let us look at the passage.

Now, the context of Peter's writing is to encourage believer's who are suffering unjust persecution. He is giving them hope and strengthening their faith.
First, he tells them that scoffers would come, following their sinful desires.
He tells us that these scoffers deliberately overlook a fact. God destroyed the world by water and wiped out the evilness of mankind, except for Noah and his family.

He then tells those under persecution to have faith and patience. They should remember a fact. The fact is this:
God is not slow, but he is patient toward...you. Who is the you? Is it the world? No. It is "To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:" (2 Peter 1:1).
God is not slow, he is patient toward you.
Why?
Because God is "not wishing that any (of you) should perish, but that all should reach repentance."
This means there are more to come who will "obtain a faith of equal standing" with Peter.
What will happen when all these people reach repentance?
God will come like a thief and God will burn up the heavens and the earth. No water for this judgment of humanity. This time fire will be used. The day of the Lord will have arrived and the saints who cried out for that day will rejoice. Evil will be destroyed forever.

So, you clearly have zero clue what Peter is talking about. You have twisted one verse so that it is wrongly interpreted and applied. You need to stop your abuse of God's word and repent.

2 Peter 3:1-10
This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.

They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.”

For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

You're mostly wrong.

Peter said God wants, without forcing, ALL to come to repentance. Thus, salvation is open to all living people. Peter wouldn'ta written this without God's telling him. HE SAID NOTHING ABOUT WHETHER IT WAS "ELECT" OR NOT THAT GOD WAS GIVING THE CHANCE TO COME TO REPENTANCE !

And WHO does "all" leave out ??????????????????

 

[Dave G]

Part 1:

I believe this belongs here. This seems to be extremely controversial even to other Baptist and Protestants.

Do you believe in free will? If so how do you justify free human will along side fundamental theological ideas like TULIP and more importantly God's awesome sovereign authority.

No, not in the strictest sense.

I believe that man's will is free to do as he pleases, within the constraints that God has declared man is both willing and capable of doing, given our sinful and rebellious condition.
That condition is spelled out in Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20, Psalms 10:4 and many other places.

Now I'd like to address some points made by Mr. Mitchell:

Sin can be a powerful draw and man most often allows its influence to pull him that way.

Man not only allows it, but according to God's word, we love it ( Romans 1:32, Ephesians 4:17-19 )...to the point that we hate the light and will not come to the light, lest our deeds be reproved ( or "corrected", see John 3:19-20 ).

What is it to hate the light?
To hate Jesus Christ, the Light of the world ( John 8:12 ).
Who hates Jesus Christ?

The world ( John 15:18 )...that's everyone who is not born again.
Even God's children hated God before He manifested Himself to them by His word ( we were His enemies, see Romans 5:10 and Ephesians 2:1-10 ).
They then love Him, because He first loved them ( 1 John 4:19 ).

Second, the world and its godless agenda (2 Peter 1:4). Man looks at the world and sees pleasure that can be difficult to walk away from.

According to God's word it is impossible to walk away from, unless God changes the heart.
However, that statement, as far as I am aware, cannot be found in one single "verse" in capsule form.

Except for one passage:
John 3:19-20.

Moreover, it must be understood from everything that God has to say on the matter...
Not just one "verse" or passage.

Third, the gospel Romans 1:16). The truth of God delivered by the Holy Spirit has the power to overcome the other two. As powerful as the gospel is God has determined to allow man to choose between the those influences.

The Gospel message has no power in and of itself.

It is the power of God to someone...the saved ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).
Otherwise it is foolishness.

The Holy Ghost must be present in order for the word to do its work ( John 3:5, 1 Corinthians 2:9-16, Titus 3:5-6 ).
God's Spirit is the one who empowers the Gospel message to be heard and believed.