God allows but does not author evil

[jonathan.borland]

It would seem that God doesn't actually fulfill prophecy since prophesy is merely a glimpse of what has already happened to a God who transcends space and time but interacts with us in the space and time into which he placed us. Forgive me if I'm committing errors here. I'm relatively new to the debate.

 

[Winman]

Hi Winman, stop deflecting. First, God prophecied that Jesus would have a betrayer. Then God picked a person, with a heart that would betray Jesus. And then God made sure His prophecy would be fulfilled by allowing Satan to enter. What part of that do you not understand!!!!!

God never tempts, i.e. tries to lead astray, anyone. But people who have gone astray, are hardened such that they stay astray, like the people of Romans 11, or Judas.

I am not deflecting. You yourself agree that God never tempts any man. Therefore God could not have tempted Judas to betray Jesus. Therefore Judas betraying Jesus was not determined by God.

Why can you not understand this? If God determined or caused Judas to betray Jesus, then God would be the author of sin.

It is like Joseph's brothers. God did not make Joseph's brothers hate him and devise to kill him. If anything, God softened Reuben's heart.

Gen 37:18 And when they saw him afar off, even before he came near unto them, they conspired against him to slay him.
19 And they said one to another, Behold, this dreamer cometh.
20 Come now therefore, and let us slay him, and cast him into some pit, and we will say, Some evil beast hath devoured him: and we shall see what will become of his dreams.
21 And Reuben heard it, and he delivered him out of their hands; and said, Let us not kill him.

Joseph's brothers were going to kill him, but Reuben had a change of heart. I believe this was God intervening on Joseph's behalf. God also knew the caravan would come along, and that his brothers would sell him. So God "countered" their hatred to bring about Joseph going down to Egypt. Joseph certainly could not have gone down to Egypt and saved his family if he would have been killed. This is an example of overcoming evil with good.

Do you not know that your view of God's foreknowledge is looking into a crystall ball. You cannot "foresee" the future unless you look at that future. But that is not at all what the Bible says God does, so I do not appreciate you proclaiming He does.

God can see the future whether you accept it or not.

1 Sam 23:10 Then said David, O LORD God of Israel, thy servant hath certainly heard that Saul seeketh to come to Keilah, to destroy the city for my sake.
11 Will the men of Keilah deliver me up into his hand? will Saul come down, as thy servant hath heard? O LORD God of Israel, I beseech thee, tell thy servant. And the LORD said, He will come down.
12 Then said David, Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul? And the LORD said, They will deliver thee up.
13 Then David and his men, which were about six hundred, arose and departed out of Keilah, and went whithersoever they could go. And it was told Saul that David was escaped from Keilah; and he forbare to go forth.

Here David prayed and asked God if Saul would come down to Keilah to capture him. God told David that Saul would indeed come down. Then David asked God if the men of Keilah would deliver David to Saul. The Lord answered that the men of Keilah would deliver David to Saul.

But that didn't happen did it? David fled from Keilah and Saul forbare to go down to this city. Did God lie? Was God mistaken? If God can only foretell that which he has determined and predestined, then why did Saul not come down to Keilah? Why did David not remain in Keilah and why didn't the men of Keilah deliver David to Saul?

So you see, God can see exactly what men will do, but that does not mean what God foretells is determined.

As you like to say, YOU'RE OUT!

So yet again you have deflected and not answered the question, from scripture, how does God fulfill prophecy. Does he simply allow some future foreseen thing to happen, or does He cause what He says will happen to happen. Two very different views. Answer the question!

Your view is unstudied, and I have even given you one reference from Isaiah. There are several more which teach the same thing.

And I would say you are unstudied, the story of David at Keilah refutes your view. God can see the freewill decisions of men, and God can see things that are not determined.

 

[Skandelon]

To suggest that I am saying hell is not real demonstrates your commitment to truth.

You misunderstood. I was not suggesting that you said hell was not real. I was replying to your comment which seemed to suggest that I was denying or 'avoiding' the reality of hell.

Now, Skandelon, we come to the actual false choice, of saying we should not be worried sick over the lost because they will receive perfect justice. We should be worried sick because we can do something about it, we can be ambassadors of Christ, and provide the gospel, with its truth that those who do not obtain mercy through Jesus, face eternal punishment

On this point, we agree.

 

[marke]

It would seem that God doesn't actually fulfill prophecy since prophesy is merely a glimpse of what has already happened to a God who transcends space and time but interacts with us in the space and time into which he placed us. Forgive me if I'm committing errors here. I'm relatively new to the debate.

I believe this is a very good approximation of what is exactly right.

 

[Van]

It would seem that God doesn't actually fulfill prophecy since prophesy is merely a glimpse of what has already happened to a God who transcends space and time but interacts with us in the space and time into which he placed us. Forgive me if I'm committing errors here. I'm relatively new to the debate.

I believe this is a very good approximation of what is exactly right.

Scripture says God fulfills prophecy but does not mean what it says? Surely you jest. Whatever happened to scripture alone. It seems when scripture contradicts your doctrine, you simply nullify scripture.

Nowhere in scripture do we find the explanation you offer, however the explanation from scripture is God causes what He says will happen to happen.

 

[Van]

Hi Winman; I am not deflecting. You yourself agree that God never tempts any man. Therefore God could not have tempted Judas to betray Jesus. Therefore Judas betraying Jesus was not determined by God.

Did you not read my post? God chose a person whose heart would betray Jesus. What part of that did you not understand.

You need to reread the book of Habakkuk, and see how God uses people, evil people to carry out His plans.

 

[Van]

If God determined or caused Judas to betray Jesus, then God would be the author of sin.

I already covered this!!!

If God, for His purpose causes a person to sin, then no penalty would attach to that sin. These cases would be exceptions, for God does not cause you and me to sin, we are wholly responsible.

In the case of Judas, he was a lip service person, who was not actually committed to God. When Jesus chose him, Jesus knew is was the son of predition, i.e. under the influence of Satan. Once Judas was chosen for that purpose, his opportunity to repent and trust in Christ was taken away.

 

[Van]

God did not make Joseph's brothers hate him and devise to kill him.

Winman, why are you posting this? Who are you contradicting? Nothing I have posted makes this claim. Deflection is when you misrepresent and fight strawmen of your own creation.

 

[Van]

Winman, please stop deflecting and address the question, how does God fulfill prophecy. Does he look into the "future" and then tell us what will happen, or does He declare what will happen, then cause that event to occur? Pretty simple question. Why not answer it?

 

[convicted1]

Winman, please stop deflecting and address the question, how does God fulfill prophecy. Does he look into the "future" and then tell us what will happen, or does He declare what will happen, then cause that event to occur? Pretty simple question. Why not answer it?

God knows what will happen two weeks from now because He has perfect foreknowledge. God knew the fall would happen before He made this world because He has perfect foreknowledge. He knew Lucifer would rebel because He has perfect foreknowledge. That being said, just because He knew that Lucifer's fall, and Adam's and Eve's rebellion would happen, does not mean He "determined" them to happen. He knows all because He is God.

 

[Van]

If God can only foretell that which he has determined and predestined,

Winman, please stop misrepresenting my view. I have now specifically addressed this twice, yet you post the fiction again. Does truth have no meaning?

God can foretell what people will do given a circumstance, whether the circumstance occurs or not, like the people would have repented had they seen the miracles.

Winman, I am not out. Do you know the difference between God giving a promise which He will keep, and God telling what men will do if given the circumstance.

Do you remember Jonah saying in forty days Nineveh will be overturned, but then God not overtuning it? Did God lie? Or did an intervening action occur which brought about a change. Jonah feared God would relent so it is possible God had told him that His prophecy was contingent upon repentence and prayer. God does not lie.

 

[Van]

Hi Convicted1, everything is not predestined is it. If everything is not predestined, then limited open theism is biblical.

You can make unbiblical assertions tell the cows come home, I cannot refute them because that would be unorthodox.

But no one has answered this question, if God knows what we will choose, then we can only choose the foreknown alternative, which predestines our choice. If God punishes us for doing what He predestines us to do, then that is not a winning gospel message. Is it yours? Remember John 3:11 tells us the gospel is understandable, something a child could grasp.

 

[convicted1]

Hi Convicted1, everything is not predestined is it. If everything is not predestined, then limited open theism is biblical.

You can make unbiblical assertions tell the cows come home, I cannot refute them because that would be unorthodox.

But no one has answered this question, if God knows what we will choose, then we can only choose the foreknown alternative, which predestines our choice. If God punishes us for doing what He predestines us to do, then that is not a winning gospel message. Is it yours?

Just because He knows what we will choose, in no way, means He "predestined" us to make that specific choice.

It's like if I knew you would buy a Chevy truck three years from now. Just because I knew what you would choose, does not mean I "foreordained" your choice for you.

 

[marke]

Scripture says God fulfills prophecy but does not mean what it says? Surely you jest. Whatever happened to scripture alone. It seems when scripture contradicts your doctrine, you simply nullify scripture.

Nowhere in scripture do we find the explanation you offer, however the explanation from scripture is God causes what He says will happen to happen.

It has to be frustrating to the devil that all scripture will be fulfilled and must be fulfilled just as prophesied. There is no doubt that the scriptures say that certain things occurred or were done that scriptures would be fulfilled. It is also true that God movd in people's minds and caused them to do certain things that scriptures would be fulfilled. But everything was not necessarily prophesied and then made to be fulfilled, as much as some things were prophesied because God knew the future and knew what was going to happen and thus foretold what He knew was to come to pass.

Does God accept the blame for the Jews' rejection of Him at His first coming? Did God make them blaspheme Him and have Him crucified that the scripture might be fulfilled? Does God make men to be cursed of Him and to be condemned to everlasting punishment despite anything they might say or do to the contrary to try to change His mind about that set course in which they are heading? No, God knows the future but God does not directly mandate all things just so the future will turn out like He thought it would.

The disciples asked Jesus, "Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?" Jesus answered, "Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist." (Matt. 17:10-13).

Why did the desciples think that the Lord was saying John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy that they were asking about which said Elijah would come again before the end? There are two reasons, I believe. The last two verses in the OT say this: "Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."

This OT prophecy, according to the Lord, had two separate fulfillments. One will be when Elijah is one of the two witnesses in Jerusalem during the tribulation, and the other was John the Baptist. There is a hint that things might have or could have been different if the Jews had received the Lord at His first coming, even though we know the Lord knew they would not have accepted Him because he knew all things in the future and knew they were not going to receive Him. But to prove He did not MAKE them reject Him, He said in Matt. 11:13-14 "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And IF YE WILL receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come."

God hardened Pharoah's heart, but only after Pharoah hardened his own heart beyond where God was willing to show him mercy and forgiveness. So, I say, God knows the future and God causes the future, but that doesn't mean that God moves every heart and mind of man in everything every man says, thinks or does. Much of what man does he does on his own and he cannot blame God for it.

 

[Van]

Hi Marke;

It has to be frustrating to the devil that all scripture will be fulfilled and must be fulfilled just as prophesied. There is no doubt that the scriptures say that certain things occurred or were done that scriptures would be fulfilled. It is also true that God movd in people's minds and caused them to do certain things that scriptures would be fulfilled. But everything was not necessarily prophesied and then made to be fulfilled, as much as some things were prophesied because God knew the future and knew what was going to happen and thus foretold what He knew was to come to pass.

You are right, everything is not prophesied, but everything that is prophesied is brought about by God, no crystal ball is in sight. This is described in scripture in several places.

Your assertion that God foretold the future not based on knowing what people might do given a circumstance, or on His will to bring it about, has no basis in scripture.

Does God accept the blame for the Jews' rejection of Him at His first coming?

Only those He hardened in Romans 11, as far as I know. However, we do see where the blow was softened by saying they were ignorant, and therefore God's perfect justice might be mitigated.

Did God ... have Him crucified that the scripture might be fulfilled?

Yes, Acts 2:23, Isaiah 53.

Does God make men to be cursed of Him and to be condemned to everlasting punishment despite anything they might say or do

No, God provides a means of obtaining mercy through trust in Christ.

God knows the future but God does not directly mandate all things just so the future will turn out like He thought it would.

Yes God knows the future but whether the knowledge is exhaustive or not is something not allowed to be discussed on this forum. And Yes, God does not directly mandate all things, so open theism to a limit degree is biblical. Things happen by chance according to Jesus.

The disciples asked Jesus, "Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?" Jesus answered, "Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist." (Matt. 17:10-13).

Why did the desciples think that the Lord was saying John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy that they were asking about which said Elijah would come again before the end? There are two reasons, I believe. The last two verses in the OT say this: "Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."

This OT prophecy, according to the Lord, had two separate fulfillments. One will be when Elijah is one of the two witnesses in Jerusalem during the tribulation, and the other was John the Baptist. There is a hint that things might have or could have been different if the Jews had received the Lord at His first coming, even though we know the Lord knew they would not have accepted Him because he knew all things in the future and knew they were not going to receive Him. But to prove He did not MAKE them reject Him, He said in Matt. 11:13-14 "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And IF YE WILL receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come."

There was no hint, God had a predetermined plan that included His rejection.

God hardened Pharoah's heart, but only after Pharoah hardened his own heart beyond where God was willing to show him mercy and forgiveness.

Yes, this is true, but for God to harden Pharaoh's heart, He was removing the limited spiritual ability Pharaoh had as a natural man.

So, I say, God knows the future and God causes the future, but that doesn't mean that God moves every heart and mind of man in everything every man says, thinks or does. Much of what man does he does on his own and he cannot blame God for it.

All true, given the caveat that God's knowledge of the future does not predestine everything.

 

[Van]

Pitchback;

Just because He knows what we will choose, in no way, means He "predestined" us to make that specific choice.

It's like if I knew you would buy a Chevy truck three years from now. Just because I knew what you would choose, does not mean I "foreordained" your choice for you.

How can a foreknown choice, be a choice, if no other choice is possible? Still waiting for you to address the actual issue.

If your knowledge of my choice was predestined, i.e you were going to make me buy that Chevy, then I would have no choice. If your knowledge was perfect and you could not be mistaken, then whether or not you intervened, I would still have to do as your foreknowledge said because you are perfect.

Perhaps you would be willing to study how God fulfills prophecy and post an answer with references to scripture like I did? It is hard to discuss bible study when all I get is assertions without support.

 

[convicted1]

How can a foreknown choice, be a choice, if no other choice is possible? Still waiting for you to address the actual issue.

If your knowledge of my choice was predestined, i.e you were going to make me buy that Chevy, then I would have no choice. If your knowledge was perfect and you could not be mistaken, then whether or not you intervened, I would still have to do as your foreknowledge said because you are perfect.

Perhaps you would be willing to study how God fulfills prophecy and post an answer with references to scripture like I did? It is hard to discuss bible study when all I get is assertions without support.

I never stated that by my knowing what you chose,i.e. the Chevy, was predestined by me. I just knew that was what you would choose. I just knew that you were going to choose the Chevy, but not influence you in a way that you had no other choice than to choose the Chevy. Your choice is your choice, I just simply knew what you would choose.

 

[Winman]

If God can only foretell that which he has determined and predestined,

Winman, please stop misrepresenting my view. I have now specifically addressed this twice, yet you post the fiction again. Does truth have no meaning?

God can foretell what people will do given a circumstance, whether the circumstance occurs or not, like the people would have repented had they seen the miracles.

Winman, I am not out. Do you know the difference between God giving a promise which He will keep, and God telling what men will do if given the circumstance.

Do you remember Jonah saying in forty days Nineveh will be overturned, but then God not overtuning it? Did God lie? Or did an intervening action occur which brought about a change. Jonah feared God would relent so it is possible God had told him that His prophecy was contingent upon repentence and prayer. God does not lie.

Apples and oranges. God indeed said Nineveh would be overthrown in 40 days and he meant it. But the people repented and God changed his mind.

Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

The story in 1 Sam 23 is altogether different. God told David what Saul and the men of Keilah would do. David fled the city so Saul did not come down to Keilah. Had not God warned David, he would have stayed in Keilah and Saul would have come down, and the men of Keilah would have given David over to Saul.

God knew the Jews would kill Jesus, but they did not understand the prophecy concerning Christ, else they would not have killed him.

1 Cor 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

The people of Nineveh knew what God would do, Jonah told them. So they were able to repent. The Jews (and Judas and the devil) did not understand the prophecy concerning Christ so they killed him.

If the devil and the Jews understood the prophecy concerning Christ they would not have killed him. Jesus defeated the devil when he was crucified and rose again.

1 Cor 2:8 shows if the devil and Jews had understood prophecy, then things would have turned out differently. It was not determined, but God knew what they would surely do.

Now, I am not saying that Jesus laying down his life for us was not determined, it surely was. But God does not tempt any man or cause any man to sin. So God did not determine they would kill Jesus, he allowed it to happen to save us. He simply knew what they would do. We could not have been saved unless Jesus died for us and rose again.

Edit- And why do you keep saying I am misrepresenting your view? I don't think I have said one thing about what you believe, I have only presented what I believe.

 

[jbh28]

God works all things after the counsel of his will. Saying everything is preordained by God doesn't mean that God caused them all to happen. God didn't make me write this post. I choose to post it. It was preordained by God that I would post this post. We vote on who our president will be. We also know that God has preordained who our president will be. (Daniel 2:21, Romans 13:1) The issue people have is that they say that for something to be preordained to happen it must be directly caused by God to happen. God knows everything. There is nothing that God doesn't or hasn't known.

 

[marke]

You are right, everything is not prophesied, but everything that is prophesied is brought about by God, no crystal ball is in sight. This is described in scripture in several places.

We live our lives as a tale that is already told, and God always sees and knows how every body's story unfolds and ends, but that does not mean that He manipulated every circumstance for whatever reason. For example, God never caused us or made us do anything contrary to His will.

Your assertion that God foretold the future not based on knowing what people might do given a circumstance, or on His will to bring it about, has no basis in scripture.

I can see why you say this, because I don't remember saying this either. I must have been trying to say something else.

Only those He hardened in Romans 11, as far as I know. However, we do see where the blow was softened by saying they were ignorant, and therefore God's perfect justice might be mitigated.
Yes, Acts 2:23, Isaiah 53.
No, God provides a means of obtaining mercy through trust in Christ.
Yes God knows the future but whether the knowledge is exhaustive or not is something not allowed to be discussed on this forum. And Yes, God does not directly mandate all things, so open theism to a limit degree is biblical. Things happen by chance according to Jesus.

I think I agree, but I am having a hard time figuring out what I said that you are responding to because it is not showing as I am responding.

There was no hint, God had a predetermined plan that included His rejection.

Just the same, there are different levels of sin involved, which means God did not cause any of it. Jesus said, "he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.", implying different degrees or seriousness of the various sins being committed outside of the known will of God (sin is disobedience to the will of God, which is why God cannot sin or lead anyone to sin.)

Yes, this is true, but for God to harden Pharaoh's heart, He was removing the limited spiritual ability Pharaoh had as a natural man.

When the Bible says Pharoah hardened his heart I believe it was Pharoah which hardened his own heart, but when the Bible says God hardened Pharoah's heart, in those instances God hardened Pharoah's heart.

All true, given the caveat that God's knowledge of the future does not predestine everything.

I agree, I think.