Hebrews 9:27

[thomas15]

George said:

No one was "born again" in the Old Testament, brother.
Peter says the new birth only became possible through the resurrection of Christ:
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
The new birth was prophesied in the OT, yes, but as a future reality, not a present one.

Thomas asked:

Jesus told Nicodemus that in order to see the kingdom of God one has to be born again (John 3:3). Jesus also said that many righteous prophets were slain by unbelieving sinful man (Matt 34-35).

Is it possible for an individual who was righteous prior to the historic resurrection of Jesus (for example Abraham, Moses, Daniel, David, John the Baptist) to see the kingdom of God or they excluded?

George replied:

I can appreciate a good question, even when in objection, and that's a good question.
The righteous OT men will all be raised from the dead at the beginning of the millennial kingdom (which evidently occurs after the resurrection of Christ) and will enter and see the kingdom. Their resurrection accounts for their new nature based on which they inherit the kingdom.

Thomas is not satisfied:

I will admit that I'm not a learned theologian so I'm having a hard time understanding this doctrine. Looking at it with kids eyes at what Jesus told Nicodemus (speaking about the new birth) in John 3:10 "Are you a teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?" Seems like our Lord is implying that Nicodemus should have known about the new birth. Without consulting the commentaries I would simply think that Jesus is really saying that if one fully trusts in Jehovah for all his needs and seeking forgiveness of sin then one would know that they need transformation which can only come from God. Even the unbelieving Jews knew that only Jehovah forgives sin, they just didn't want to trust.

Jesus doesn't say to Nicodemus that he is spiritually blind like he does to the other religious leaders but he does say he must be be born again and that this should be something he should know something about. If Nicodemus had said to Jesus "I want to be born again", what would Jesus have said? I think it would have been something along the lines of "believe in God and also believe in me". I doubt Jesus would have said "Nicodemus, wait another 3 years for me to be crucified and raised from the dead, then believe on me then you will be born again".

I don't have to win this argument but would it not be easier to conclude that the righteous prior to the resurrection of Jesus were saved the same way we today are saved, by the shed blood of Christ? If so then could not the OT saints be Born Again on what could be considered something like credit? Their sin debt is paid by Christ and Him crucified credited to their account before payment was actually received?

 

[George Antonios]

Seems like our Lord is implying that Nicodemus should have known about the new birth.

Yes, of course, you are right. As already stated, the new birth was prophesied in the O.T. but as a future reality.

I doubt Jesus would have said "Nicodemus, wait another 3 years for me to be crucified and raised from the dead, then believe on me then you will be born again".

Yep. Many things Christ spoke of were future, and note that only John ever mentions that new birth among the evangelists.

I don't have to win this argument but would it not be easier to conclude that the righteous prior to the resurrection of Jesus were saved the same way we today are saved, by the shed blood of Christ?

No it would not, that oft repeated mantra flies in the face of scores of verses and in the face of the fact that the apostles themselves had no idea what Christ was talking about when he prophesied his death and resurrection and some even tried to stop it.

I don't have to win the argument either, and I respect your cordial spirit. I realize this is a huge topic and maybe some day we can broach more fully. I realize that such snippets won't satisfy you now, even as they did not satisfy me when I first heard such things, but it got me praying and digging in the word

 

[Yeshua1]

That's a disingenuous defence. Many non-Calvinists here engage many Calvinists, and we sorely disagree but the majority take into account our words and integrate them into their feedback. You don't. Your replies, no matter what we say, are always a re-iteration of what you "know". You just repeat the mantras. That's not a conversation.

@canadyjd over here was not listening either today, but finally he did, and we were able to go on.

The day you integrate our points into your replies is the day we can resume conversation.

And I believe in predestination and election, they're in the Bible.

Would the basis for those terms jopse be based upon the will of God or upon Foreknowledge?

 

[Yeshua1]

George said:


Thomas asked:


George replied:


Thomas is not satisfied:

I will admit that I'm not a learned theologian so I'm having a hard time understanding this doctrine. Looking at it with kids eyes at what Jesus told Nicodemus (speaking about the new birth) in John 3:10 "Are you a teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?" Seems like our Lord is implying that Nicodemus should have known about the new birth. Without consulting the commentaries I would simply think that Jesus is really saying that if one fully trusts in Jehovah for all his needs and seeking forgiveness of sin then one would know that they need transformation which can only come from God. Even the unbelieving Jews knew that only Jehovah forgives sin, they just didn't want to trust.

Jesus doesn't say to Nicodemus that he is spiritually blind like he does to the other religious leaders but he does say he must be be born again and that this should be something he should know something about. If Nicodemus had said to Jesus "I want to be born again", what would Jesus have said? I think it would have been something along the lines of "believe in God and also believe in me". I doubt Jesus would have said "Nicodemus, wait another 3 years for me to be crucified and raised from the dead, then believe on me then you will be born again".

I don't have to win this argument but would it not be easier to conclude that the righteous prior to the resurrection of Jesus were saved the same way we today are saved, by the shed blood of Christ? If so then could not the OT saints be Born Again on what could be considered something like credit? Their sin debt is paid by Christ and Him crucified credited to their account before payment was actually received?

ALL who have even been saved, either Old or new, were saved by being under the NC!

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus told Nicodemus that in order to see the kingdom of God one has to be born again (John 3:3). Jesus also said that many righteous prophets were slain by unbelieving sinful man (Matt 34-35).

Is it possible for an individual who was righteous prior to the historic resurrection of Jesus (for example Abraham, Moses, Daniel, David, John the Baptist) to see the kingdom of God or they excluded?

All who have been saved are included under the NC, as only in Adam or in Christ!

 

[Yeshua1]

You are an open theist, Sir, since according to your copy and paste theology, our sins are not foreordained!!!!

So God authors sin per you?

 

[George Antonios]

Would the basis for those terms jopse be based upon the will of God or upon Foreknowledge?

Predestination in the Bible is never that of a lost man unto salvation, but always of a saved man unto a resurrection body bearing Christ's physical image. God predestinated the believers, those he foreknew would believe, to obtain a Christ-like resurrection body. That's what the verses say. Please take the time to consider the study here for proof:

 

[Van]

So God authors sin per you?

Nope, I am pretty sure all Calvinists lean toward exhaustive determinism, God's knowledge of the future fixes the future and no other outcome is possible. However, that view is malarkey. God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass...

What the verse seems to me to be saying is there are no second chances for salvation after we physically die. Judgment is swift and sure, and the lost are condemned already. John 3:18.

OTOH, God is the God of continuing chances as long as we live, therefore repent and believe.

 

[AustinC]

Nope, I am pretty sure all Calvinists lean toward exhaustive determinism, God's knowledge of the future fixes the future and no other outcome is possible. However, that view is malarkey. God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass...

What the verse seems to me to be saying is there are no second chances for salvation after we physically die. Judgment is swift and sure, and the lost are condemned already. John 3:18.

OTOH, God is the God of continuing chances as long as we live, therefore repent and believe.

We certainly do not know the mind of God nor do we know when his redemptive choice will be enacted. For some, like myself, that redemption was at age 4. For others, like the thief on the cross, that redemption was just prior to death.

God is not a God of chance. He's not sitting back, wondering if someone will choose him. God knows that all humans, given their own willful choice, would rebel and reject unto death.

But God...even when we were dead in our trespasses and sins...made us alive with Christ.

That is not a God of chances, but it is a God of Sovereign choice within His Sovereign time.

 

[Van]

We certainly do not know the mind of God nor do we know when his redemptive choice will be enacted. For some, like myself, that redemption was at age 4. For others, like the thief on the cross, that redemption was just prior to death.

God is not a God of chance. He's not sitting back, wondering if someone will choose him. God knows that all humans, given their own willful choice, would rebel and reject unto death.

But God...even when we were dead in our trespasses and sins...made us alive with Christ.

That is not a God of chances, but it is a God of Sovereign choice within His Sovereign time.

Did anyone say God is a God of Chance? Nope so yet another misrepresentation...
God does not know whether all humans will rebel and reject God.
Psalms 14:2 - The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of mankind To see if there are any who understand, Who seek God

Psalms 14:5 There they are in great dread,
For God is with a righteous generation

Pay no attention to Calvinist claims not supported by specific references to scripture.

 

[AustinC]

Did anyone say God is a God of Chance? Nope so yet another misrepresentation...
God does not know whether all humans will rebel and reject God.
Psalms 14:2 - The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of mankind To see if there are any who understand, Who seek God

Psalms 14:5 There they are in great dread,
For God is with a righteous generation

Pay no attention to Calvinist claims not supported by specific references to scripture.

You did. Let's quote you for good measure:

OTOH, God is the God of continuing chances as long as we live, therefore repent and believe.

 

[George Antonios]

You did. Let's quote you for good measure:

Wait. Are you reframing @Van 's use of the word "chance" in "God is the God of continuing chances" as if he meant "randomness"?

 

[AustinC]

Wait. Are you reframing @Van 's use of the word "chance" in "God is the God of continuing chances" as if he meant "randomness"?

Nope, I am saying God is not giving "chances." God knows exactly who is saved and when, on a historical timeline, they will respond in hearing God's voice. There is no teaching in scripture that God gives "chances" as though he were a barker at the county fair calling out for men to take their best shot at winning the big stuffed bear.

 

[Yeshua1]

Did anyone say God is a God of Chance? Nope so yet another misrepresentation...
God does not know whether all humans will rebel and reject God.
Psalms 14:2 - The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of mankind To see if there are any who understand, Who seek God

Psalms 14:5 There they are in great dread,
For God is with a righteous generation

Pay no attention to Calvinist claims not supported by specific references to scripture.

Are you then an Open theist? is God surprised, or does He learn more things?

 

[Yeshua1]

Nope, I am saying God is not giving "chances." God knows exactly who is saved and when, on a historical timeline, they will respond in hearing God's voice. There is no teaching in scripture that God gives "chances" as though he were a barker at the county fair calling out for men to take their best shot at winning the big stuffed bear.

Some seem to see God tha father as giving his Son jesus to save us, and yet he keeps watching from afar, pleading with and hoping some lost sinners will come to their senses and accept Jesus to save them!

 

[AustinC]

Some seem to see God tha father as giving his Son jesus to save us, and yet he keeps watching from afar, pleading with and hoping some lost sinners will come to their senses and accept Jesus to save them!

Indeed. Perhaps they just don't understand what it means to be the Supreme ruler over all things. Rulers don't plead with rebels.

 

[George Antonios]

Indeed. Perhaps they just don't understand what it means to be the Supreme ruler over all things. Rulers don't plead with rebels.

Tyrants don't. My loving God does. I am sincerely deeply sorry that's how you view God.

 

[AustinC]

Tyrants don't. My loving God does. I am sincerely deeply sorry that's how you view God.

Your God loves holiness and righteousness. Your God loves those whom He has graciously chosen to redeem and purchase with His blood. Your God is the Sovereign over all and He will not turn his back on justly casting unrepentant rebels into eternal hell. That is a God of love. That is the God who chose you, despite your wretchedness. I pity you if you do not understand the God of grace.

 

[Van]

Together with Christ is the accepted translation of syzōopoieō which is a compound word with one component meaning union with fellowship, and the other component meaning to be made alive. Thus "made alive together with Christ" captures the whole meaning. Here, in Ephesians 2:5 and in Colossians 2:13 the idea is the same. Thus the translations that leave out the idea of union (together with) leave part of the inspired word untranslated.

 

[Van]

You did. Let's quote you for good measure:

LOL, God providing the lost with the continuing chance for salvation does not make God a God of chance. Your assertion is bogus nonsense.