Hebrews 9:27

[George Antonios]

Ordained and determined do not equal "authored" in the sense that God created.

That's denial.

 

[AustinC]

That's denial.

Indeed, you are in denial. You deny God has done it all for you without any assistance from you, without your help. Please, stop denying this. Please stop lifting up humans above their station.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

Indeed, you are in denial. You deny God has done it all for you without any assistance from you, without your help. Please, stop denying this. Please stop lifting up humans above their station.[/QUOTE/] Is he "in denial" or is he merely "In the Nile"?

 

[AustinC]

Is he "in denial" or is he merely "In the Nile"? [emoji3]Biggrin[emoji3]Tongue

Either way, you're sunk.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

Either way, you're sunk.

Thanks for your "Help." BTW, do you know of any reliable lifesaver companies that could rescue me? The water is COLD & I'm about to drown!

 

[AustinC]

Thanks for your "Help." BTW, do you know of any reliable lifesaver companies that could rescue me? The water is COLD & I'm about to drown!

There's a candy company...

 

[Paul from Antioch]

Either way, you're sunk.

Thanks for your "Help." BTW, do you know of any reliable lifesaver companies that could rescue me? The water is COLD & I'm about to drown!

 

[Paul from Antioch]

There's a candy company...

I tried them, but the candy melted down to nothing (or "NO THING"!).

 

[thomas15]

No one was "born again" in the Old Testament, brother.
Peter says the new birth only became possible through the resurrection of Christ:
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
The new birth was prophesied in the OT, yes, but as a future reality, not a present one.

Jesus told Nicodemus that in order to see the kingdom of God one has to be born again (John 3:3). Jesus also said that many righteous prophets were slain by unbelieving sinful man (Matt 34-35).

Is it possible for an individual who was righteous prior to the historic resurrection of Jesus (for example Abraham, Moses, Daniel, David, John the Baptist) to see the kingdom of God or they excluded?

 

[Silverhair]

"Silverhair,


Hello Silverhair,
Thank you for this fine, and important question.
I do not think we have interacted before, so I would like to offer an answer as well as ask you some clarifying questions that might advance the discussion.
In the OP. Salty asked a question that deals with the topic of God's immutability. God who is perfect and Holy in all His attributes has no need to change anything as that would suggest imperfection which is not possible.
To suggest an infinitely Holy God can be the author of sin is also flawed human philosophy, so we can dispense with that kind of defective thought right away;
12 Art thou not from everlasting, O Lord my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O Lord, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.

13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

Now, your questions;



Millions of others before us have said this is the teaching of scripture, and I agree with their understanding of scripture....so yes, I say this is the truth of God.

[QUOTE]IF God has decreed, unchangeably everything that happens then how would He not be the author of sin?

This question starts with the idea that it is possible to blame God for man's sin, which is scripturally not possible. I believe it also has a wrong idea of God being Righteous and Just. It is the question asked by Paul's imaginary objector in Romans 9;
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


???
How can that even be considered as a possibility?Isa46;


9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.[/QUOTE]


You have misunderstood me. I am not saying that we can overrule God. What I am saying is the the Calvinist view makes it necessary that all our actions are controlled by God, good or bad.

And there in lays the problem for Calvinism. They want you to believe that God controls everything and yet we are responsible for all our sinful thoughts, doubts, beliefs etc.
The bible shows that man has a free will. Whenever you see an "If, then" you know that a choice can be made. If real choice were not possible then why Eze_33:11 "...Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?" And in the NT just one of many examples Joh 3:18. If man has not free will then God is being less than forthright here. But under Calvinism it would just be the illusion of choice since God has already determined what the choice will be.

"God is incapable of knowing an undetermined future, and therefore, for God to be omniscient and all-knowing, no future could be left undetermined, or better yet, unscripted." (James White, Debating Calvinism, p.163)

So in other words, under Calvinism, God must predetermine everything in order to possess omniscience over anything.
Please do not get me wrong. If you want to believe that God has to control everything, so be it. For me I do not see Calvinism in the text unless it is read it into the text.

 

[Silverhair]

"Silverhair,


Hello Silverhair,
Thank you for this fine, and important question.
I do not think we have interacted before, so I would like to offer an answer as well as ask you some clarifying questions that might advance the discussion.
In the OP. Salty asked a question that deals with the topic of God's immutability. God who is perfect and Holy in all His attributes has no need to change anything as that would suggest imperfection which is not possible.
To suggest an infinitely Holy God can be the author of sin is also flawed human philosophy, so we can dispense with that kind of defective thought right away;
12 Art thou not from everlasting, O Lord my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O Lord, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.

13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

Now, your questions;



Millions of others before us have said this is the teaching of scripture, and I agree with their understanding of scripture....so yes, I say this is the truth of God.

[QUOTE]IF God has decreed, unchangeably everything that happens then how would He not be the author of sin?

This question starts with the idea that it is possible to blame God for man's sin, which is scripturally not possible. I believe it also has a wrong idea of God being Righteous and Just. It is the question asked by Paul's imaginary objector in Romans 9;
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


???
How can that even be considered as a possibility?Isa46;


9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.[/QUOTE]


You have misunderstood me. I am not saying that we can overrule God. What I am saying is the the Calvinist view makes it necessary that all our actions are controlled by God, good or bad.

And there in lays the problem for Calvinism. They want you to believe that God controls everything and yet we are responsible for all our sinful thoughts, doubts, beliefs etc.
The bible shows that man has a free will. Whenever you see an "If, then" you know that a choice can be made. If real choice were not possible then why Eze_33:11 "...Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?" And in the NT just one of many examples Joh 3:18. If man has not free will then God is being less than forthright here. But under Calvinism it would just be the illusion of choice since God has already determined what the choice will be.

"God is incapable of knowing an undetermined future, and therefore, for God to be omniscient and all-knowing, no future could be left undetermined, or better yet, unscripted." (James White, Debating Calvinism, p.163)

So in other words, under Calvinism, God must predetermine everything in order to possess omniscience over anything.
Please do not get me wrong. If you want to believe that God has to control everything, so be it. For me I do not see Calvinism in the text unless it is read it into the text.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

This question starts with the idea that it is possible to blame God for man's sin, which is scripturally not possible. I believe it also has a wrong idea of God being Righteous and Just. It is the question asked by Paul's imaginary objector in Romans 9;
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


???
How can that even be considered as a possibility?Isa46;


9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

You have misunderstood me. I am not saying that we can overrule God. What I am saying is the the Calvinist view makes it necessary that all our actions are controlled by God, good or bad.

And there in lays the problem for Calvinism. They want you to believe that God controls everything and yet we are responsible for all our sinful thoughts, doubts, beliefs etc.
The bible shows that man has a free will. Whenever you see an "If, then" you know that a choice can be made. If real choice were not possible then why Eze_33:11 "...Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?" And in the NT just one of many examples Joh 3:18. If man has not free will then God is being less than forthright here. But under Calvinism it would just be the illusion of choice since God has already determined what the choice will be.

"God is incapable of knowing an undetermined future, and therefore, for God to be omniscient and all-knowing, no future could be left undetermined, or better yet, unscripted." (James White, Debating Calvinism, p.163)

So in other words, under Calvinism, God must predetermine everything in order to possess omniscience over anything.
Please do not get me wrong. If you want to believe that God has to control everything, so be it. For me I do not see Calvinism in the text unless it is read it into the text.[/QUOTE]

 

[Paul from Antioch]

You have misunderstood me. I am not saying that we can overrule God. What I am saying is the the Calvinist view makes it necessary that all our actions are controlled by God, good or bad.

And there in lays the problem for Calvinism. They want you to believe that God controls everything and yet we are responsible for all our sinful thoughts, doubts, beliefs etc.
The bible shows that man has a free will. Whenever you see an "If, then" you know that a choice can be made. If real choice were not possible then why Eze_33:11 "...Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?" And in the NT just one of many examples Joh 3:18. If man has not free will then God is being less than forthright here. But under Calvinism it would just be the illusion of choice since God has already determined what the choice will be.

"God is incapable of knowing an undetermined future, and therefore, for God to be omniscient and all-knowing, no future could be left undetermined, or better yet, unscripted." (James White, Debating Calvinism, p.163)

So in other words, under Calvinism, God must predetermine everything in order to possess omniscience over anything.
Please do not get me wrong. If you want to believe that God has to control everything, so be it. For me I do not see Calvinism in the text unless it is read it into the text.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Paul from Antioch]

[/QUOTE]
I do not claim to have what only God in Heaven has: Omniscience. IOW, there simply are things that God in His Absolute Sovereignty has chosen not to reveal to His creation, mortal men. God DOES Know exactly who will be saved (Rescued from Eternal Destruction) & exactly who will not take God up in His Offer that's stated very clearly in John 3:3-13. This arrangement places God in Heaven squarely on His Eternal Thone. This choice again in reaffirmed by His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ in John 15:16 & 19. This sovereign choice does NOT excuse us as His creation from telling all humans of His glorious Gospel that was personified in Jesus Christ. Nonetheless, we are commissioned to do so in both Matthew 28:19 and in Acts 1:7-8. Since God has commanded us to spread the Gospel, we as His creation (and, therefore, His servants!) must do exactly what He has commanded to do. It is not up to His creation to question God's motives or reasons for doing what He has commanded us to do; It is up to us simply to obey & to leave the results up to Him. The Apostle Paul knew this and, next to Jesus Christ Himself, became the then-known world's greatest 1st Century AD's missionary. While centuries have elapsed since God's command was first given to His creation, God is, as to His nature, eternal. Thus it is still incumbent upon us today to do exactly what He commanded us to do---And, again, to leave the results up to Him.

 

[AustinC]

You have misunderstood me. I am not saying that we can overrule God. What I am saying is the the Calvinist view makes it necessary that all our actions are controlled by God, good or bad.

And there in lays the problem for Calvinism. They want you to believe that God controls everything and yet we are responsible for all our sinful thoughts, doubts, beliefs etc.
The bible shows that man has a free will. Whenever you see an "If, then" you know that a choice can be made. If real choice were not possible then why Eze_33:11 "...Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?" And in the NT just one of many examples Joh 3:18. If man has not free will then God is being less than forthright here. But under Calvinism it would just be the illusion of choice since God has already determined what the choice will be.

"God is incapable of knowing an undetermined future, and therefore, for God to be omniscient and all-knowing, no future could be left undetermined, or better yet, unscripted." (James White, Debating Calvinism, p.163)

So in other words, under Calvinism, God must predetermine everything in order to possess omniscience over anything.
Please do not get me wrong. If you want to believe that God has to control everything, so be it. For me I do not see Calvinism in the text unless it is read it into the text.

You must be an open theist. You also present a false understanding of God's sovereignty and therefore fall upon a false calvinism of your own creation.

 

[Iconoclast]

Silverhair,

You have misunderstood me. I am not saying that we can overrule God. What I am saying is the the Calvinist view makes it necessary that all our actions are controlled by God, good or bad.

God is in control of all things, but we are free moral agents, fully responsible before God.

And there in lays the problem for Calvinism.

There is no problem with any of this.

They want you to believe that God controls everything and yet we are responsible for all our sinful thoughts, doubts, beliefs etc.

That is the teaching of the bible from cover to cover

The bible shows that man has a free will.

The bible does not teach free will, as it does not exist.
man's will is bound by his nature which is dead.

Whenever you see an "If, then" you know that a choice can be made

.
Men make choices all the time, but that has nothing to do with their will being free or bound by sin.

If real choice were not possible then why Eze_33:11 "...Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?" And in the NT just one of many examples Joh 3:18.

Real choice is possible, but men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil. They choose self and sin 24/7.

If man has not free will then God is being less than forthright here

.
Do not blame God for man choosing sin.

But under Calvinism it would just be the illusion of choice since God has already determined what the choice will be.

That is not the bible teaching, it is not the Calvinistic teaching either.
Can you quote any Calvinist writer saying God determines what man's choice would be?

"God is incapable of knowing an undetermined future, and therefore, for God to be omniscient and all-knowing, no future could be left undetermined, or better yet, unscripted." (James White, Debating Calvinism, p.163)

Dr. White's quote is spot on.

So in other words, under Calvinism, God must predetermine everything in order to possess omniscience over anything.

God predestines the elect to be conformed to the image of the Son. It does not say everything is predestined by God.

Please do not get me wrong. If you want to believe that God has to control everything, so be it.

Lol, God is God, He controls everything whether I believe it or not.
Do you believe anything is outside God's control?

For me I do not see it in the text

Not yet, but it still there for you to discover.

Unless it is read it into the text.[

Once you see it, you will see it everywhere.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

Silverhair,



God is in control of all things, but we are free moral agents, fully responsible before God.


There is no problem with any of this.


That is the teaching of the bible from cover to cover



The bible does not teach free will, as it does not exist.
man's will is bound by his nature which is dead.

.
Men make choices all the time, but that has nothing to do with their will being free or bound by sin.


Real choice is possible, but men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil. They choose self and sin 24/7.

.
Do not blame God for man choosing sin.



That is not the bible teaching, it is not the Calvinistic teaching either.
Can you quote any Calvinist writer saying God determines what man's choice would be?

Dr. White's quote is spot on.



God predestines the elect to be conformed to the image of the Son. It does not say everything is predestined by God.



Lol, God is God, He controls everything whether I believe it or not.
Do you believe anything is outside God's control?



Not yet, but it still there for you to discover.


Once you see it, you will see it everywhere.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

Silverhair,



God is in control of all things, but we are free moral agents, fully responsible before God.


There is no problem with any of this.


That is the teaching of the bible from cover to cover



The bible does not teach free will, as it does not exist.
man's will is bound by his nature which is dead.

.
Men make choices all the time, but that has nothing to do with their will being free or bound by sin.


Real choice is possible, but men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil. They choose self and sin 24/7.

.
Do not blame God for man choosing sin.



That is not the bible teaching, it is not the Calvinistic teaching either.
Can you quote any Calvinist writer saying God determines what man's choice would be?

Dr. White's quote is spot on.



God predestines the elect to be conformed to the image of the Son. It does not say everything is predestined by God.



Lol, God is God, He controls everything whether I believe it or not.
Do you believe anything is outside God's control?



Not yet, but it still there for you to discover.


Once you see it, you will see it everywhere.

What I posted above is simply my own personal opinion. If yours is different than mine, so be it. This "God's Complete Sovereignty" vs. "A Human's Free Will" controversy has gone on for centuries with, IMHO anyway, no real end in sight so far. As the old hymn goes, "When we all get to Heaven," maybe God will straighten both of us out!

 

[George Antonios]

Jesus told Nicodemus that in order to see the kingdom of God one has to be born again (John 3:3). Jesus also said that many righteous prophets were slain by unbelieving sinful man (Matt 34-35).

Is it possible for an individual who was righteous prior to the historic resurrection of Jesus (for example Abraham, Moses, Daniel, David, John the Baptist) to see the kingdom of God or they excluded?

I can appreciate a good question, even when in objection, and that's a good question.
The righteous OT men will all be raised from the dead at the beginning of the millennial kingdom (which evidently occurs after the resurrection of Christ) and will enter and see the kingdom. Their resurrection accounts for their new nature based on which they inherit the kingdom.

 

[Paul from Antioch]

I can appreciate a good question, even when in objection, and that's a good question.
The righteous OT men will all be raised from the dead at the beginning of the millennial kingdom (which evidently occurs after the resurrection of Christ) and will enter and see the kingdom. Their resurrection accounts for their new nature based on which they inherit the kingdom.

Yes, "The righteous OT men WILL be raised from the dead," but so will ALL those of us who've put our complete faith & trust in Jesus Christ! "Praise God, From Whom ALL Blessings Flow!"