How the 5 points of Calvinism don’t line up.

[Alan Gross]

Acts 2:38 ... tell it to Peter so Luke can correct the Bible.

• It seems to me that we are united with Christ's death, burial and resurrection in our Baptism (the one baptism by water and the spirit that makes us born from above, not the dunking in water by Human hands) and we are sanctified by the renewing from within by the Holy Spirit. There is no point in renewing a corpse, so rebirth logically comes first.

As far as the Baptisms and Holy Spirit described in Acts, I stand by my observations and acknowledge that the theological Ordo Solutis may be different. (But you will be hard pressed to convince me that Scripture does not say what it says.)

You're talking about "one baptism", by water, in one paragraph and standing by Holy Spirit baptism", in the second (from your previous writings you are standing by.)

Thus, this is off.

If you are not Called to have a Bible understanding of "baptisms", etc., so be it.

I can't win that battle. Forget it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That’s a human deduction that crosses the line.

It’s merely logic. God has the capacity and the desire to save all then all would be saved. Without God, the creature could never achieve salvation. Therefore you’d be insane not to want it.

 

[Sai]

The meaning of propitiation isn’t a deduction.

The Archangel


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Well by Adam all were made sin but by Yeshua all have been redeemed. The lost cannot be condemned for rejecting a propitiation that was not applicable for them can they.

 

[Sai]

It’s merely logic. God has the capacity and the desire to save all then all would be saved. Without God, the creature could never achieve salvation. Therefore you’d be insane not to want it.

Yet Judas did not want it. Yes the Calvinist argues logically but we cannot stand by what is logical rather we must stand in what scripture says.

 

[The Archangel]

Well by Adam all were made sin but by Yeshua all have been redeemed. The lost cannot be condemned for rejecting a propitiation that was not applicable for them can they.

But this doesn’t get to the meaning of propitiation.

The Archangel


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[atpollard]

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

The New Birth, here, by The Holy Ghost, has no mention of 'baptism'.

The New Birth is the Re-generation, Quickening, and New Birth, from Above.

There is no "Holy Spirit baptism", that anyone can see in The Book.

It is not there.

That one was a little more subtle ... the “washing of regeneration” preceded the “renewing of the Holy Spirit”.

• “washing of regeneration” = baptism
  
• “renewing of the Holy Spirit” = Holy Spirit
  
• Baptism preceded Holy Spirit

 

[atpollard]

If you are not Called to have a Bible understanding of "baptisms", etc., so be it.

It seems presumptuous when I quote scripture that states people were first baptized and afterwards received the Holy Spirit, for you to then claim that I do not have a “Bible understanding” of baptisms because I do not believe that people receive the Holy Spirit before Baptism.

I agree that nothing edifying can come from continuing this discussion.

 

[Sai]

But this doesn’t get to the meaning of propitiation.

The Archangel


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Propitiation is in the context of man’s debt, a gift with believing as the prerequisite of obtaining the gift thus the propitiation was made for all of humanity but only applied on those who accept it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yet Judas did not want it. Yes the Calvinist argues logically but we cannot stand by what is logical rather we must stand in what scripture says.

OK, Matthew 1:21 tells us, "he shall save his people from their sins." If all men are His people, all men are saved. We know this is not true for Scripture teaches otherwise (Jude 11,13; Revelation 20:14-15). Hell shall be occupied. The Scriptures teach unmistakably that Christ died only for God's elect which are His sheep, His children, those whom He foreknew (Romans 8:29,30).

 

[Sai]

OK, Matthew 1:21 tells us, "he shall save his people from their sins." If all men are His people, all men are saved. We know this is not true for Scripture teaches otherwise (Jude 11,13; Revelation 20:14-15). Hell shall be occupied. The Scriptures teach unmistakably that Christ died only for God's elect which are His sheep, His children, those whom He foreknew (Romans 8:29,30).

I guess he only died for Israel. That’s who the his people are in that context.

 

[Sai]

It seems presumptuous when I quote scripture that states people were first baptized and afterwards received the Holy Spirit, for you to then claim that I do not have a “Bible understanding” of baptisms because I do not believe that people receive the Holy Spirit before Baptism.

I agree that nothing edifying can come from continuing this discussion.

Well that’s not true. I happen to derive great joy from the arguments made by for and against one another. Because evidently none of us are very spiritual people anyways.

 

[AustinC]

The atonement saves. Even if you never hear the gospel. The Westminster agrees to this). But the rest follows under normal conditions.

If the atonement saves and the atonement is universal, what conclusion should we come to?

 

[The Archangel]

Propitiation is in the context of man’s debt, a gift with believing as the prerequisite of obtaining the gift thus the propitiation was made for all of humanity but only applied on those who accept it.

Nope.

The Archangel


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[Sai]

Nope.

The Archangel


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Delicious

 

[AustinC]

Nope.

The Archangel


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Indeed nope. If Sai's assertion were correct, then humans would be saved by their own efforts and wise choices.

 

[Sai]

Indeed nope. If Sai's assertion were correct, then humans would be saved by their own efforts and wise choices.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I guess he only died for Israel. That’s who the his people are in that context.

You don’t understand election

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 930 am EDT / 630 am PDT

 

[Sai]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 930 am EDT / 630 am PDT

It’s only 11pm here for crying out loud

 

[1689Dave]

If the atonement saves and the atonement is universal, what conclusion should we come to?

It's not universal. It actually justifies and saves the elect. This is why Calvin needed something else to save, just as Arminians do...the word and the sacraments took when the Holy Spirit imposes his will of the elect "effectually".