How then do we really define heresy?

[atpollard]

Here is a 1988 translation of the Nicene Creed approved by the Christian Reformed Church of North America (definitely not Roman Catholics) ...

We believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
begotten from the Father before all ages,
God from God,
Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made;
of the same essence as the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven;
he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary,
and was made human.
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried.
The third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures.
He ascended to heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again with glory
to judge the living and the dead.
His kingdom will never end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life.
He proceeds from the Father and the Son,
and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified.
He spoke through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church.
We affirm one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look forward to the resurrection of the dead,
and to life in the world to come. Amen.
​

 

[37818]

I agree with you that much of what we discuss and disagree on are secondary issues, what causes them to arise to being heresy then?

Only when they contradict salvation by God's grace alone being a free gift through faith alone in Christ alone as taught according to God's word alone . . . . And any essential teachings to that teaching.

 

[atpollard]

I am sorry you feel that way. That was not my intention. The real sore point, for me, is the Nicene Creed false teaching, "the only begotten Son of God,
begotten from the Father before all ages, . . ." The word of God teaches no such thing. And Arianism, which the creed is suppost to be against is rooted in that false notion. The creed tries to fix this by arguing, "begotten not made." Without the added words "not made" it is Arianism! The only begotten Son of God was not begotten nor made to be the Son. His Sonship has no cause. The only begotten Son is the uncaused Son of God. He is YHWH even as His Father is YHWH. The One YHWH.

• [Jhn 1:14, 18 NASB] 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. ... 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained [Him.]
  
  
• [Jhn 3:16, 18 NASB] 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. ... 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

An alternative English translation ...

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
begotten from the Father before all ages,
God from God,
Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made;​

 

[JonC]

So you really believe what Webster says on this that someone not baptized will go to hell?

No. I believe that words have meaning and you are confused about the meaning of "heresy".

Herese does not mean a departure from Christ. Within Christian faith there are several groups which hold different theological positions as a whole. Baptists are not the only group who are saved.

 

[37818]

begotten from the Father before all ages,

Where in the written word of God is that taught?

Light from Light,

Where in the word of God is that taught? John 17:3; John 1:9; Hebrews 1:3 contradics that in that the Son is that very light.

 

[Yeshua1]

• [Jhn 1:14, 18 NASB] 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. ... 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained [Him.]
  
  
• [Jhn 3:16, 18 NASB] 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. ... 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

An alternative English translation ...

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
begotten from the Father before all ages,
God from God,
Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made;​

he seems to think that the term begotten some how denotes being created at a point in time!

 

[MB]

That is not “portions”.
Could you be more specific on what part of the Nicene creed you find HERETICAL?

נוסח ועידת ניקיאה
אני מאמין באלוהים אחד, האב הכול יכול, בורא שמיים וארץ, כל הגלוי וכל הסמוי. ובאדון אחד, ישוע המשיח, בן יחיד לאלוהים, אשר נולד מן האב לפני כל הדורות. אל מאל, אור מאור, אל אמת מאל אמת. לא נברא כי אם מולד; עצמו עצם האב ועל ידו נעשה הכל, בעבורנו, בני האדם, ולמען ישענו ירד מן השמיים; ונהיה בשר מרוח הקודש ברחם מרים הבתולה ונעשה אדם. נצלב למעננו, סבל בימי פונסיוס פילטוס, ונקבר. וביום השלישי קם לתחיה כדבר הכתוב, ועלה השמיימה, והוא יושב לימין האב. ושוב ישוב בהוד לשפוט את החיים ואת המתים ולא יהיה קץ למלכותו. אני מאמין ברוח הקודש, האדון, המחייה, הנובע מהאב ומהבן. לו סוגדים ולו נותנים יקר – כלאב וכלבן, והוא אשר דיבר בפני הנביאים. אני מאמין בכנסייה האחת, הקדושה, הכוללת והשליחית, ואני מכיר בכך שישנה טבילה אחת למחילת החטאים, ומצפה לתחיית המתים ולחיי העולם הבא. אמן.​

... otherwise my response is “No. I have no intention of Scripturally proving every word in the Nicene Creed.”

Where the creed states the word "Catholic". I'm not not universal nor is my church universal or Catholic. I do not believe everyone is saved, or will be. Not only this everything Catholic to me is heretical. The Body of Christ will never be universal
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

No. I believe that words have meaning and you are confused about the meaning of "heresy".

Herese does not mean a departure from Christ. Within Christian faith there are several groups which hold different theological positions as a whole. Baptists are not the only group who are saved.

All real Christians should be able to define from the Bible what a heresy in Theology looks like!

 

[Yeshua1]

Where the creed states the word "Catholic". I'm not not universal nor is my church universal or Catholic. I do not believe everyone is saved, or will be. Not only this everything Catholic to me is heretical. The Body of Christ will never be universal
MB

There is a Universal Church of Christ, made up of all of the redeemed in Christ!

 

[JonC]

Not per the bible!

Yes. Per the Bible. Romans 14:4 addresses this. Churches can in fact hold different views standard among their group. This does not mean Christians who disagree are going to hell.

A Baptist church is right to exclude historically Reformed people. But they cannot say they are not Christians because they affirm infant baptism.

1. What verse in the Bible defines the word "heresy"?

2. What do you think the word means?

 

[37818]

begotten from the Father before all ages,

The word of God nowhere teaches any such thing.

The word of God does teach the one who was already the Son to be the incarnate resurrected Son of God being begotten in time, Acts of the Apostles 13:33, being the first born of all creation, Colossians 1:15, being that meaning He is the fisrt born from the dead, Colossians 1:18; Revelation 1:5, etc.

 

[MB]

Not essential as in must be performed for a sinner to be saved, nor essential as to what mode is used!

I'll say this to you; It does not cause Salvation but because Christ said to do it, it is.
MB

 

[JonC]

All real Christians should be able to define from the Bible what a heresy in Theology looks like!

Heresy is any belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs.

"Heresy" is not a "biblical word" .

Real Christians should NOT add to the Bible (not even one word).

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes. Per the Bible. Romans 14:4 addresses this. Churches can in fact hold different views standard among their group. This does not mean Christians who disagree are going to hell.

A Baptist church is right to exclude historically Reformed people. But they cannot say they are not Christians because they affirm infant baptism.

1. What verse in the Bible defines the word "heresy"?

2. What do you think the word means?

I did not say that reformed holding to infant baptism are not saved, I stated that Baptismal regeneration is heresy!
To define heresy, we must discern what the entire NT revelation from God to us in the Bible is, and its pretty easy to see that much of heresy revolves around distorting the nature and Persons of the Trinity, of Jesus, and of Pauline Justification!

 

[Yeshua1]

I'll say this to you; It does not cause Salvation but because Christ said to do it, it is.
MB

essential to be in obedience to Jesus, but not essential as in being required for salvation!

 

[37818]

Scriptures do not teach baptismal Regeneration!

The Nicene Creed is understood by its framers to teach baptismal regernation.

 

[Yeshua1]

Heresy is any belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs.

"Heresy" is not a "biblical word" .

Real Christians should NOT add to the Bible (not even one word).

Again, we must definer what is heresy by the scriptures only, not by our statement of faiths or beliefs!

 

[Yeshua1]

The Nicene Creed is understood by its framers to teach baptismal regernation.

On that point, they would be wrong!

 

[Yeshua1]

Here is a 1988 translation of the Nicene Creed approved by the Christian Reformed Church of North America (definitely not Roman Catholics) ...

We believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
begotten from the Father before all ages,
God from God,
Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made;
of the same essence as the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven;
he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary,
and was made human.
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried.
The third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures.
He ascended to heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again with glory
to judge the living and the dead.
His kingdom will never end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life.
He proceeds from the Father and the Son,
and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified.
He spoke through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church.
We affirm one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look forward to the resurrection of the dead,
and to life in the world to come. Amen.
​

That Baptism line was not written by A Reformed Baptist!

 

[37818]

. . . essential to be in obedience to Jesus, . . .

And that means? A to merit or recieve a gift without merit?