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Humans Do Not Generate Their Own Faith

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Yeshua1

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You really shouldn't try to handle the Greek when you have no basis to use it. Strongs can be a helpful tool, but it isn't what you think it is. It's little more than a dictionary. What it doesn't give you is grammar and syntax--which you have to work with the text to understand.



Acts 18 is in no way "context" for Acts 13. What you're referencing is not context but word usage. The word ἀντιτάσσω is a different word from τάσσω. ἀντιτάσσω may contain the word τάσσω and the meaning may be derived from τάσσω, but it does not mean what you're claiming it means. ἀντιτάσσω is used in the NT to show opposition. τάσσω, on the other hand, means to arrange or appoint.

What you're attempting to do here is like saying "infinitesimal," containing the word "infinite" must mean without end. Of course, infinitesimal doesn't mean that because "infinitesimal" and "infinite" are two different words.



This explanation is quite silly. First, τάσσω does not appear in a vacuum; the sentence construction indicates meaning. The word τάσσω is a participle in the passive voice. In Greek whether something is passive or not is a feature of the construction of the word (not its place in the sentence, like English). This word, being passive, means that the subject cannot act upon himself or herself. Since this participle is plural and refers to the gentiles who believed, it cannot be read as "appointing themselves" without ignoring the grammar and doing great violence to the text. The text clearly states they were appointed, and they did not do this to themselves.

What is more, the result of τάσσω is seen in the verb πιστεύω. The result of the appointment (which, again, they cannot do to themselves) is that they believed. So, their belief is enabled by something else--having been appointed.

So, don't try to lecture me about presuppositions and mis-reading scripture to fit my Calvinism. It is you who have done violence to the text in your explanation here--simply because you think it icky that God should choose whom He will bring to repentance and faith.

The Archangel
This is why we need to know and accept our limitations, as do not appeal to Greek and Hebrew unless one really knows what it means!
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
John definition of real faith would not be simply to know something is true, but to commit to that truth, so demons would have to submit to the lordship of Jesus if they had real faith, but they know who he really is, but still choose to disobey Him!
Even if they chose to obey God (who can resist the will of God), they are unredeemed. They have eternity in hell as the consequence of their rebellion. No gracious redemption is given to fallen angels.
God is not obligated to redeem fallen humanity. God, by the mystery of His own will, chooses to graciously redeem some humans. When God chooses to redeem a human, He also gives that human the faith to believe s/he is indeed redeemed.
 

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
The Holy Spirit chose Himself to use those biblical languages, so why not get into what is taught there?

There is no such thing as "Biblical Languages" the way that expression is scholastically understood today.

The Holy Spirit himself prophesied that one day he would speak to the Jews in a language other than Hebrew.

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Evidently, since the "other tongue" is spoken of the Lord, then the "other tongue" is by definition given by inspiration.

Christians have simply been regurgitating the 19th Century Higher Criticism Humanistic view of the Bible rather than learn their doctrine of inspiration from the words of the book itself.
 

Yeshua1

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There is no such thing as "Biblical Languages" the way that expression is scholastically understood today.

The Holy Spirit himself prophesied that one day he would speak to the Jews in a language other than Hebrew.

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Evidently, since the "other tongue" is spoken of the Lord, then the "other tongue" is by definition given by inspiration.

Christians have simply been regurgitating the 19th Century Higher Criticism Humanistic view of the Bible rather than learn their doctrine of inspiration from the words of the book itself.
The Spirit inspired the very words of scriptures into Biblical Hebrew and Greek, so why should we not seek to glean understanding from those very words he chose to use there?
So someone studying just English translation can learn more then someone who also knows those languages and uses original language texts and tools?
 

Yeshua1

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Even if they chose to obey God (who can resist the will of God), they are unredeemed. They have eternity in hell as the consequence of their rebellion. No gracious redemption is given to fallen angels.
God is not obligated to redeem fallen humanity. God, by the mystery of His own will, chooses to graciously redeem some humans. When God chooses to redeem a human, He also gives that human the faith to believe s/he is indeed redeemed.
They seemed to have made a permanent decision to rebel and go against God!
 

Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. Acts 9:7
And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. Acts 22:9

What was going on here? What was the Lord doing? Who was he interested in?

Who was going to be, of the faith of Abraham and who wasn't going to be of the faith of Abraham?

But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. Acts 9:15,16

And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 1 Tim 1:12,13

One who had been, of unbelief, became, of belief.
Acts 26.19
Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
implies Paul could have chosen to be disobedient.
 

Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
Wow, you are wrong on all accounts. Congratulations.
You have established that human effort is the means by which a person is saved. I disagree entirely with your assertion. However, thank you for being so clear in expressing your assertions. It made it easy to see how wrong you are in all areas of your assertion.
What you may be hung up on is the philosophy of Calvinism . lay that aside and what if God said that it pleased God to save those that stood on their head , wouldn't we just have to accept that as true ? . Well its the same with 1 cor 1.21 .
 

Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
You really shouldn't try to handle the Greek when you have no basis to use it. Strongs can be a helpful tool, but it isn't what you think it is. It's little more than a dictionary. What it doesn't give you is grammar and syntax--which you have to work with the text to understand.



Acts 18 is in no way "context" for Acts 13. What you're referencing is not context but word usage. The word ἀντιτάσσω is a different word from τάσσω. ἀντιτάσσω may contain the word τάσσω and the meaning may be derived from τάσσω, but it does not mean what you're claiming it means. ἀντιτάσσω is used in the NT to show opposition. τάσσω, on the other hand, means to arrange or appoint.

What you're attempting to do here is like saying "infinitesimal," containing the word "infinite" must mean without end. Of course, infinitesimal doesn't mean that because "infinitesimal" and "infinite" are two different words.



This explanation is quite silly. First, τάσσω does not appear in a vacuum; the sentence construction indicates meaning. The word τάσσω is a participle in the passive voice. In Greek whether something is passive or not is a feature of the construction of the word (not its place in the sentence, like English). This word, being passive, means that the subject cannot act upon himself or herself. Since this participle is plural and refers to the gentiles who believed, it cannot be read as "appointing themselves" without ignoring the grammar and doing great violence to the text. The text clearly states they were appointed, and they did not do this to themselves.

What is more, the result of τάσσω is seen in the verb πιστεύω. The result of the appointment (which, again, they cannot do to themselves) is that they believed. So, their belief is enabled by something else--having been appointed.

So, don't try to lecture me about presuppositions and mis-reading scripture to fit my Calvinism. It is you who have done violence to the text in your explanation here--simply because you think it icky that God should choose whom He will bring to repentance and faith.

The Archangel
And yet Luke could have easily said ' and as many as were ordained by God " But he didn't did he ? Because calvinism and context never go together, not once . They miss this fact . They miss also verse ( Acts 13 )
42¶And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. They chose to hear again .
then in contrast in verse 46 we see 46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
Interesting how these reprobates are Judging themselves unworthy.
Then as if Luke knew how every non Calvinist who doesn't get triggered by the buzz word ' ordained ' is ready after reading the context and especially verse 46 ,to understand 48 as being the Gentiles did not judge themselves unworthy of ever lasting life and actually believed salvation was for them to attained . And as many as inclined / disposed believed .
I'm all ears as to your explanation using similar context from Acts 13 as to how you personally arrive at your interpretation to mean " And as many as God chose to be saved before the Foundation of the World, God caused them to believe " . Which it actually does not say . See no greek there needed . But the greek does prove my position not calvinism.
 

utilyan

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Site Supporter
You project demons believing in God's authority to also be faith. That is a false connection on your part. Nowhere do we read of fallen angels having faith.
God has not shown them grace in redeeming them, therefore they have no faith to believe God has graciously atoned for their sins and justified them through Christ Jesus.

You saying a demon OUGHT to believe God has atoned for their sins?

You are tying to make FAITH a magical word. It is not. It is our trust confidence. Evidence of things unseen. hebrews 11


"Nowhere do we read of fallen angels having faith."

James 2

19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

The entire point of this verse is to show you demons have faith.




Mark 5

6Seeing Jesus from a distance, he ran up and bowed down before Him; 7and shouting with a loud voice, he said, “What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God, do not torment me!” 8For He had been saying to him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!” 9And He was asking him, “What is your name?” And he said to Him, “My name is Legion; for we are many.” 10And he began to implore Him earnestly not to send them out of the country. 11Now there was a large herd of swine feeding nearby on the mountain. 12The demons implored Him, saying, “Send us into the swine so that we may enter them.” 13Jesus gave them permission. And coming out, the unclean spirits entered the swine; and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea, about two thousand of them; and they were drowned in the sea.


Here right away the demon LEGION BOWS before Jesus, IMMEDIATELY believes he is SON OF GOD.

What does the Demon do? HE PRAYS! He asks Jesus not to torment him, He REQUESTS for Jesus to send them to the heard of swine.

Jesus could have said NOPE off to hell with you. VERSE 13 JESUS GAVE THEM PERMISSION.

Whats sad here is DEMON who hates Jesus CAN TRUST JESUS WITH A REQUEST, CAN YOU?

If this demon had no faith he wouldn't of even have bothered.
 

The Archangel

Well-Known Member
There is no Biblical warrant to go back to any "original" language to better understand God's point.
That's a humanistic approach to the Bible, rather than a spiritual/scriptural one.

Really?! Consider this:

[23] The same day Sadducees came to him, who say that there is no resurrection, and they asked him a question, [24] saying, “Teacher, Moses said, ‘If a man dies having no children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up offspring for his brother.’ [25] Now there were seven brothers among us. The first married and died, and having no offspring left his wife to his brother. [26] So too the second and third, down to the seventh. [27] After them all, the woman died. [28] In the resurrection, therefore, of the seven, whose wife will she be? For they all had her.”

[29] But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God. [30] For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. [31] And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: [32] ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” [33] And when the crowd heard it, they were astonished at his teaching. (Matthew 22:23–33 ESV)​

Interestingly, Jesus goes to the grammar of the Hebrew to explain that God "is" the God of the living." Had the dead ceased to exist (ie. if there were no resurrection) God would have introduced Himself to Moses as "I was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.." Jesus hangs His interpretation of the passage on the tense of the verb in Hebrew and He supports the doctrine of the resurrection with the grammar of the Hebrew text. So, Jesus' use of scripture here stands against you.

The Archangel
 

The Archangel

Well-Known Member
And yet Luke could have easily said ' and as many as were ordained by God " But he didn't did he ? Because calvinism and context never go together, not once . They miss this fact . They miss also verse ( Acts 13 )
42¶And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. They chose to hear again .
then in contrast in verse 46 we see 46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
Interesting how these reprobates are Judging themselves unworthy.
Then as if Luke knew how every non Calvinist who doesn't get triggered by the buzz word ' ordained ' is ready after reading the context and especially verse 46 ,to understand 48 as being the Gentiles did not judge themselves unworthy of ever lasting life and actually believed salvation was for them to attained . And as many as inclined / disposed believed .
I'm all ears as to your explanation using similar context from Acts 13 as to how you personally arrive at your interpretation to mean " And as many as God chose to be saved before the Foundation of the World, God caused them to believe " . Which it actually does not say . See no greek there needed . But the greek does prove my position not calvinism.

The Greek actually does imply that God does the ordaining--it's called "The Divine Passive." Notice, however, you have shifted the goalposts of the argument. Your original argument is that the Gentiles appointed themselves, which clearly the grammar won't allow for. The issue of who appointed them is further down the field. The use of the passive means the Gentiles didn't appoint themselves, again... that much is clear. If you reject the idea of the divine passive, however, you are left to ask: Who but God can appoint to eternal life? So, clearly, Luke is exactly saying "and as many as were ordained by God." So the text is saying--almost exactly--"And as many as God chose to be saved before the Foundation of the World, God caused them to believe."

On to another issue of logic... You disparage the right use of Greek in my posts while making rather feeble attempts to use Greek in your posts. So, which is it? Is Greek bad or not? Is it helpful or not? That you cited Strong's shows you want to believe it is helpful; that you reject my use of it as unhelpful tells me volumes. You want to see the Greek only when you think it supports your position and only when it is haphazardly wielded by you, not someone who actually knows how to use it. So, you should choose: If Greek is bad, be consistent and stop trying to use it in your posts; if it is helpful, learn from those who know it and can use it rightly. The choice is yours, but to do what you're doing now is hypocritical.

The Archangel
 

MB

Well-Known Member
God does not look upon man and consider man to have had his own faith so that God can consider a man righteous.
If God did, God would be a liar.

Job 41:11 Who has first given to me, that I should repay him? Whatever is under the whole heaven is mine.
As far as faith comes from hearing the word of God.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God..
MB
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The Greek actually does imply that God does the ordaining--it's called "The Divine Passive." Notice, however, you have shifted the goalposts of the argument. Your original argument is that the Gentiles appointed themselves, which clearly the grammar won't allow for. The issue of who appointed them is further down the field. The use of the passive means the Gentiles didn't appoint themselves, again... that much is clear. If you reject the idea of the divine passive, however, you are left to ask: Who but God can appoint to eternal life? So, clearly, Luke is exactly saying "and as many as were ordained by God." So the text is saying--almost exactly--"And as many as God chose to be saved before the Foundation of the World, God caused them to believe."

On to another issue of logic... You disparage the right use of Greek in my posts while making rather feeble attempts to use Greek in your posts. So, which is it? Is Greek bad or not? Is it helpful or not? That you cited Strong's shows you want to believe it is helpful; that you reject my use of it as unhelpful tells me volumes. You want to see the Greek only when you think it supports your position and only when it is haphazardly wielded by you, not someone who actually knows how to use it. So, you should choose: If Greek is bad, be consistent and stop trying to use it in your posts; if it is helpful, learn from those who know it and can use it rightly. The choice is yours, but to do what you're doing now is hypocritical.

The Archangel

There is no greek calvinists. Thats why there was no fooling them with all not meaning all.
 
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percho

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Acts 26.19
Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
implies Paul could have chosen to be disobedient.

You can believe what you want but IMHO God does not call people who are not going to be obedient.

Abraham believed because God called him unto belief. God was going to bring, The Obedient One, The Son of God into the world as the seed of Abraham. Christ, the seed of Abraham would be the faith of Abraham.

To Abraham and his seed, singular, Christ, was the promises made.

Abraham died not having received the promises. Abraham is still dead not having received the promises. He will receive them but he hasn't yet, Heb 11:39 they without us should not be made perfect. By the same token, we shall not precede them unto perfection, 1 Thes 4:15

The promises pertains to incorruptible life and to date, one and One only, born of woman has received the promise.

God calls sheep, read John 10.
 

utilyan

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You can believe what you want but IMHO God does not call people who are not going to be obedient.

Abraham believed because God called him unto belief. God was going to bring, The Obedient One, The Son of God into the world as the seed of Abraham. Christ, the seed of Abraham would be the faith of Abraham.

To Abraham and his seed, singular, Christ, was the promises made.

Abraham died not having received the promises. Abraham is still dead not having received the promises. He will receive them but he hasn't yet, Heb 11:39 they without us should not be made perfect. By the same token, we shall not precede them unto perfection, 1 Thes 4:15

The promises pertains to incorruptible life and to date, one and One only, born of woman has received the promise.

God calls sheep, read John 10.


Jonah 1

1The word of the LORD came to Jonah the son of Amittai saying, 2“Arise, go to Nineveh the great city and cry against it, for their wickedness has come up before Me.” 3But Jonah rose up to flee to Tarshish from the presence of the LORD. So he went down to Joppa, found a ship which was going to Tarshish, paid the fare and went down into it to go with them to Tarshish from the presence of the LORD.
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
What does this even mean?

The Archangel

Like if you go to Greece. Why aren't they all Calvinists?

You would think Greeks know Greek better than anyone else.

Like if you give them something in koine greek they can figure it out.

Juss Li-ake U kan Feegor Dis Owt.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
What you may be hung up on is the philosophy of Calvinism . lay that aside and what if God said that it pleased God to save those that stood on their head , wouldn't we just have to accept that as true ? . Well its the same with 1 cor 1.21 .
Nope. Like Dave, my theology is entirely from reading God's word. It is the ploy of yourself and others to avoid the scripture and deflect to a dead man 500 years removed.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
You saying a demon OUGHT to believe God has atoned for their sins?

You are tying to make FAITH a magical word. It is not. It is our trust confidence. Evidence of things unseen. hebrews 11


"Nowhere do we read of fallen angels having faith."

James 2

19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

The entire point of this verse is to show you demons have faith.




Mark 5

6Seeing Jesus from a distance, he ran up and bowed down before Him; 7and shouting with a loud voice, he said, “What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God, do not torment me!” 8For He had been saying to him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!” 9And He was asking him, “What is your name?” And he said to Him, “My name is Legion; for we are many.” 10And he began to implore Him earnestly not to send them out of the country. 11Now there was a large herd of swine feeding nearby on the mountain. 12The demons implored Him, saying, “Send us into the swine so that we may enter them.” 13Jesus gave them permission. And coming out, the unclean spirits entered the swine; and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea, about two thousand of them; and they were drowned in the sea.


Here right away the demon LEGION BOWS before Jesus, IMMEDIATELY believes he is SON OF GOD.

What does the Demon do? HE PRAYS! He asks Jesus not to torment him, He REQUESTS for Jesus to send them to the heard of swine.

Jesus could have said NOPE off to hell with you. VERSE 13 JESUS GAVE THEM PERMISSION.

Whats sad here is DEMON who hates Jesus CAN TRUST JESUS WITH A REQUEST, CAN YOU?

If this demon had no faith he wouldn't of even have bothered.
Nope, you completely misunderstood and then created a fantasy narrative from your misunderstanding.
 
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