Humans Do Not Generate Their Own Faith

[37818]

God does not look upon man and consider man to have had his own faith . . . .

No one knows anything without believing it (having faith).

 

[AustinC]

As far as faith comes from hearing the word of God.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God..
MB

Thus you prove the point of Ephesians 2:4-9 which states that God makes one alive with Christ, saves by grace and then gives faith as a gift so that we will believe.

MB, Romans 10:17 confirms Ephesians 2:4-9. Faith does not come first.

 

[The Archangel]

Like if you go to Greece. Why aren't they all Calvinists?

You would think Greeks know Greek better than anyone else.

Like if you give them something in koine greek they can figure it out.

Juss Li-ake U kan Feegor Dis Owt.

Your question assumes that all Greeks are Christians. A corollary would be why aren't all Italians Catholic? You are presupposing that all Greeks are Christians, which they aren't, that the Greek Orthodox church has right theology (some, but certainly not all of their theology is correct), and that all Greek Christians are reading the word for themselves at a deep level of study. So, your question is invalid on several levels.

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

What you may be hung up on is the philosophy of Calvinism . lay that aside and what if God said that it pleased God to save those that stood on their head , wouldn't we just have to accept that as true ? . Well its the same with 1 cor 1.21 .

I know this response was not directed to me... but I have to say I've never read Calvin at any length. My theological conclusions are similar to his, perhaps, in some (though certainly not all) ways, but that did not come from reading Calvin. It came from reading Scripture. I would suspect many "Calvinists" share that experience.

The Archangel

 

[Barry Johnson]

You can believe what you want but IMHO God does not call people who are not going to be obedient.

Abraham believed because God called him unto belief. God was going to bring, The Obedient One, The Son of God into the world as the seed of Abraham. Christ, the seed of Abraham would be the faith of Abraham.

To Abraham and his seed, singular, Christ, was the promises made.

Abraham died not having received the promises. Abraham is still dead not having received the promises. He will receive them but he hasn't yet, Heb 11:39 they without us should not be made perfect. By the same token, we shall not precede them unto perfection, 1 Thes 4:15

The promises pertains to incorruptible life and to date, one and One only, born of woman has received the promise.

God calls sheep, read John 10.

I thought it was ' unconditional ' Election?
And the verse actually says , 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. It doesn't even imply that God caused his belief . That would be really odd . " Yes Abraham , because I caused you to believe, I really pleased by you believing, erm ..that I did and because you ..I mean I did this ,I will count unto you righteousness. Especially as I also caused you to offer up Issac , oh how I'm pleased, with myself for doing this to you for my glory "

 

[Barry Johnson]

I know this response was not directed to me... but I have to say I've never read Calvin at any length. My theological conclusions are similar to his, perhaps, in some (though certainly not all) ways, but that did not come from reading Calvin. It came from reading Scripture. I would suspect many "Calvinists" share that experience.

The Archangel

My experience with Calvinism was because of being exposed to too many calvinist teachers before I really understood the issues and before I was grounded in the bible. I was swayed by the debate side of things ..James White ect ,then vodie baucham . I was convinced by the apologetic side of calvinism and assumed it was serious and scholarly compared with those pesky Charismatics . But then I actually started to look seriously at the P In the system and it all came unravelled from there ,till finally I understood Election and Predestination from the bible.

 

[utilyan]

Your question assumes that all Greeks are Christians. A corollary would be why aren't all Italians Catholic? You are presupposing that all Greeks are Christians, which they aren't, that the Greek Orthodox church has right theology (some, but certainly not all of their theology is correct), and that all Greek Christians are reading the word for themselves at a deep level of study. So, your question is invalid on several levels.

The Archangel

Your answer assumes there are Greek Calvinists.

Simply find any Greeks that are Calvinists. Whats the chances of them hearing the gospel from any reading the bible? Yet none of them get zapped regeneration into Calvinist understanding.

 

[Barry Johnson]

God does not look upon man and consider man to have had his own faith so that God can consider a man righteous.
If God did, God would be a liar.

Job 41:11 Who has first given to me, that I should repay him? Whatever is under the whole heaven is mine.

This really is a bizarre topic that Calvinism has created. It should be so obvious to us all ,and yet we have years of debate , great theolgians wrestling the issue back and forth .When it should just obvious that God is pleased by our Believing him . We can believe all sorts of things ; The Quran , The book of Mormon, scientology, become a Jehovah's_Witness , We can believe in aliens . But somehow we can't believe the Bible ? The Gospel ,God's revelation unless God causes us to. This is so silly we should be amazed how this concept ever got off the ground .

 

[Sai]

There is no such thing as "Biblical Languages" the way that expression is scholastically understood today.

The Holy Spirit himself prophesied that one day he would speak to the Jews in a language other than Hebrew.

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Evidently, since the "other tongue" is spoken of the Lord, then the "other tongue" is by definition given by inspiration.

Christians have simply been regurgitating the 19th Century Higher Criticism Humanistic view of the Bible rather than learn their doctrine of inspiration from the words of the book itself.

Isaiah 28

Isaiah is mocked by the drunkards
These men are mocking Isaiah telling him that they are not children, they don't need to be taught.

They in drunkeness stammer out what Isaiah has prophesied, making the sound unable to be understood peeping and muttering.

What these leaders have done was spell out how they are going to be judged. Because they did not believe Isaiah's prophecy the Assyrian army is going to invade and because they have never heard the Assyrian tongue before when they do it will be a sign to them because it will sound like their own mocking mumbling - peeping and muttering, it will be line upon line, precept upon precept.


This is the literal interpretation here.

 

[Dave G]

Simply find any Greeks that are Calvinists.

" Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians [which is] in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;
3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
4 knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God." ( 1 Thessalonians 1:1-4 ).

Their election, or choice to be saved, was "of" ( by or from ) God.

 

[JD731]

This really is a bizarre topic that Calvinism has created. It should be so obvious to us all ,and yet we have years of debate , great theolgians wrestling the issue back and forth .When it should just obvious that God is pleased by our Believing him . We can believe all sorts of things ; The Quran , The book of Mormon, scientology, become a Jehovah's_Witness , We can believe in aliens . But somehow we can't believe the Bible ? The Gospel ,God's revelation unless God causes us to. This is so silly we should be amazed how this concept ever got off the ground .

Amen, Barry Johnson. What is more amazing is those who are the most susceptible to it are professional and educated people. Here is how bizarre it is.The Reformed teaches the exact opposite of what the scriptures declares. On our subject of "faith" for instance, the scriptures say the following;

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace;

Now, this passage in Romans 4 is the section in our Bible where God is dealing with the subject of justifying faith. Having declared in chapter 3 that faith is the principle of dealing with men throughout history he gives 3 illustrations of faith working in time. It is Abraham before the law was given, David under the law of Moses, and Christians after the law of Moses. We are all justified the same way, by believing God. We all did not believe the same thing, but we all believed what God said to us.This is all God requires for us to be justified in his sight. In Romans 8 we are told that it is God the Father who justifies. God was justifying men by faith 4000 years before Jesus Christ came to die for sinners. When Jesus Christ walked on this earth there was not a single person who believed in his death, burial, and resurrection and therefore God did not justify anyone in those days for believing that because that is not what he said to people in those days.

Mark 16:10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

These men who received the report of what these others had seen were justified men in the sight of God but they were not justified by this historical narrative. This is just what these people had seen. It was not the word of God at this time. It was the word of God when the word of God, who showed up a short time later and said it. When he says it, we must believe it.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Now, back to Rom 4:16. The Reformed teaches not that "it (the promise) is of faith that it might be by grace," but they teach the opposite, "that is is of grace, that it might be by faith." Isn't that what they teach when they say God must give a sinner faith for them to believe? Yes, that is what they say. He only gives this grace to a certain few and yet he calls on all the world to repent and believe the gospel he sent out his men to preach.

Look at this conclusion that is drwn from what is said in Rom 4;

;
Rom 5:1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

What does that statement say? That faith is accessed by grace or that THIS grace is accessed by faith? Ask the Reformed and they will turn it backward every time.

Therefore, I conclude that the Reformed faith is a denial of biblical Christianity on the matter of faith and grace.

 

[Dave G]

This really is a bizarre topic that Calvinism has created. It should be so obvious to us all ,and yet we have years of debate , great theolgians wrestling the issue back and forth .When it should just obvious that God is pleased by our Believing him . We can believe all sorts of things ; The Quran , The book of Mormon, scientology, become a Jehovah's_Witness , We can believe in aliens . But somehow we can't believe the Bible ? The Gospel ,God's revelation unless God causes us to. This is so silly we should be amazed how this concept ever got off the ground .

Barry,
I'm going to make one more reply in the hope that the Scriptures will persuade you on this matter:


1) Yes, God is pleased by people believing Him:
Romans 4:1-5.
James 2:21-24.

2) But the Scripture doesn't stop there...
It goes on to state why people believe on Christ.
John 6:29.
John 6:37-44.
John 6:64-65.
Philippians 1:29

Why they do not:
John 10:26.
Romans 11:7-8.
1 Corinthians 1:18.
1 Corinthians 2:14.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4.

3) God reveals His word ( and Himself ) to some and not to others:
Matthew 11:25-27.
1 Corinthians 1:19-31.

God is pleased to hide Himself from most, and to reveal Himself to His children.
The Gospel is foolishness to some, and wisdom to others.
Rejected by most, and embraced by few.

All of it is because of His electing grace.

I can only hope that someday you will see eternal life for what it is...
Not a gift that must be "accepted", but is instead a gift that was dropped into our laps by His kindness and mercy.

This is what makes it such a special gift, and one that will make believers want to praise Him for it for all eternity.
We will spend that time living in both His love and His kindness towards us through Christ Jesus.


Keep up your studies, Barry.
Every answer to your questions and comments is in His word ...
But it takes time and patience as we follow what the Lord tells us to do in 2 Timothy 2:15 and 1 Peter 2:2.

..and no, I'm not "talking down" to you.
I was once completely unaware of the details regarding His work in me, even though I am saved by His grace.
It has taken Him many years to show me what He has done for me.


I wish you well, sir.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Amen, Barry Johnson. What is more amazing is those who are the most susceptible to it are professional and educated people. Here is how bizarre it is.The Reformed teaches the exact opposite of what the scriptures declares. On our subject of "faith" for instance, the scriptures say the following;

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace;

Now, this passage in Romans 4 is the section in our Bible where God is dealing with the subject of justifying faith. Having declared in chapter 3 that faith is the principle of dealing with men throughout history he gives 3 illustrations of faith working in time. It is Abraham before the law was given, David under the law of Moses, and Christians after the law of Moses. We are all justified the same way, by believing God. We all did not believe the same thing, but we all believed what God said to us.This is all God requires for us to be justified in his sight. In Romans 8 we are told that it is God the Father who justifies. God was justifying men by faith 4000 years before Jesus Christ came to die for sinners. When Jesus Christ walked on this earth there was not a single person who believed in his death, burial, and resurrection and therefore God did not justify anyone in those days for believing that because that is not what he said to people in those days.

Mark 16:10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

These men who received the report of what these others had seen were justified men in the sight of God but they were not justified by this historical narrative. This is just what these people had seen. It was not the word of God at this time. It was the word of God when the word of God, who showed up a short time later and said it. When he says it, we must believe it.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Now, back to Rom 4:16. The Reformed teaches not that "it (the promise) is of faith that it might be by grace," but they teach the opposite, "that is is of grace, that it might be by faith." Isn't that what they teach when they say God must give a sinner faith for them to believe? Yes, that is what they say. He only gives this grace to a certain few and yet he calls on all the world to repent and believe the gospel he sent out his men to preach.

Look at this conclusion that is drwn from what is said in Rom 4;

;
Rom 5:1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

What does that statement say? That faith is accessed by grace or that THIS grace is accessed by faith? Ask the Reformed and they will turn it backward every time.

Therefore, I conclude that the Reformed faith is a denial of biblical Christianity on the matter of faith and grace.

I think Dave G has just proved your point lol .

 

[MB]

We are born in rebellion according to the curse of sin.

The Bible does not say that at all
MB

 

[MB]

Even if they chose to obey God (who can resist the will of God), they are unredeemed. They have eternity in hell as the consequence of their rebellion. No gracious redemption is given to fallen angels.
God is not obligated to redeem fallen humanity. God, by the mystery of His own will, chooses to graciously redeem some humans. When God chooses to redeem a human, He also gives that human the faith to believe s/he is indeed redeemed.

This is why Christ died for the whole world. You are denying the Word of God

 

[MB]

Nope, you completely misunderstood and then created a fantasy narrative from your misunderstanding.

Accusing others of what you do your self LOL

 

[MB]

We believe we are capable on our own. We don't have faith. We have arrogance.

Finally the truth LOL
MB

 

[Barry Johnson]

Barry,
I'm going to make one more reply in the hope that the Scriptures will persuade you on this matter:


1) Yes, God is pleased by people believing Him:
Romans 4:1-5.
James 2:21-24.

2) But the Scripture doesn't stop there...
It goes on to state why people believe on Christ.
John 6:29.
John 6:37-44.
John 6:64-65.
Philippians 1:29

Why they do not:
John 10:26.
Romans 11:7-8.
1 Corinthians 1:18.
1 Corinthians 2:14.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4.

3) God reveals His word ( and Himself ) to some and not to others:
Matthew 11:25-27.
1 Corinthians 1:19-31.

God is pleased to hide Himself from most, and to reveal Himself to His children.
The Gospel is foolishness to some, and wisdom to others.
Rejected by most, and embraced by few.

All of it is because of His electing grace.

I can only hope that someday you will see eternal life for what it is...
Not a gift that must be "accepted", but is instead a gift that was dropped into our laps by His kindness and mercy.

This is what makes it such a special gift, and one that will make believers want to praise Him for it for all eternity.
We will spend that time living in both His love and His kindness towards us through Christ Jesus.


Keep up your studies, Barry.
Every answer to your questions and comments is in His word ...
But it takes time and patience as we follow what the Lord tells us to do in 2 Timothy 2:15 and 1 Peter 2:2.

..and no, I'm not "talking down" to you.
I was once completely unaware of the details regarding His work in me, even though I am saved by His grace.
It has taken Him many years to show me what He has done for me.


I wish you well, sir.

Because of your icon I keep imagining you galloping in and out of these posts . Each time your saying ' fare well ' then ride off onto your next battle lol

 

[Barry Johnson]

Barry,
I'm going to make one more reply in the hope that the Scriptures will persuade you on this matter:


1) Yes, God is pleased by people believing Him:
Romans 4:1-5.
James 2:21-24.

2) But the Scripture doesn't stop there...
It goes on to state why people believe on Christ.
John 6:29.
John 6:37-44.
John 6:64-65.
Philippians 1:29

Why they do not:
John 10:26.
Romans 11:7-8.
1 Corinthians 1:18.
1 Corinthians 2:14.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4.

3) God reveals His word ( and Himself ) to some and not to others:
Matthew 11:25-27.
1 Corinthians 1:19-31.

God is pleased to hide Himself from most, and to reveal Himself to His children.
The Gospel is foolishness to some, and wisdom to others.
Rejected by most, and embraced by few.

All of it is because of His electing grace.

I can only hope that someday you will see eternal life for what it is...
Not a gift that must be "accepted", but is instead a gift that was dropped into our laps by His kindness and mercy.

This is what makes it such a special gift, and one that will make believers want to praise Him for it for all eternity.
We will spend that time living in both His love and His kindness towards us through Christ Jesus.


Keep up your studies, Barry.
Every answer to your questions and comments is in His word ...
But it takes time and patience as we follow what the Lord tells us to do in 2 Timothy 2:15 and 1 Peter 2:2.

..and no, I'm not "talking down" to you.
I was once completely unaware of the details regarding His work in me, even though I am saved by His grace.
It has taken Him many years to show me what He has done for me.


I wish you well, sir.

To make sense of a passage that says it pleases God by believing him we have to conclude that is his requirement. It doesn't beg the question 'how ' . Unless you have a doctrine that calls this into question . Famously ( I think its John Owen ) Made Cavinists ponder the Why some believe and some don't. But again step away from the " doctrine of total inabilty ' we would see why some believe and some dont . Usually the answers are right under the calvinists nose . Their proof texts namely . There's far too many Scriptures to list that say 1) it pleases God by believing him . And 2) He expects and commands people to do so . This is the A.B.Cs of the bible . Then Augustine comes along and argues against Pelagius using his Manichaeism gnosctism and boom , TOTAL INABILITY is born .

 

[Yeshua1]

I know this response was not directed to me... but I have to say I've never read Calvin at any length. My theological conclusions are similar to his, perhaps, in some (though certainly not all) ways, but that did not come from reading Calvin. It came from reading Scripture. I would suspect many "Calvinists" share that experience.

The Archangel

I am always amazed that many seem to think that we Calvinists worship at the Altar of John Calvin, and not the Lord Jesus!