From these verses we learn that faith comes from Jesus. Do you agree?
How do you understand Romans 12:3? Did God give Hitler faith?
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
I Now Know Why Some Deny the Rapture of the Church of Jesus Christ
- Thread starter JD731
- Start date
- Status
How do you understand Romans 12:3? Did God give Hitler faith?
37818
Well-Known Member
If God gave Hitler faith, then how do you reconcile his behavior?
Are all humans born redeemed and then lose that redemption over time?
Or are spiritually dead at birth sinners also given faith so that they don't need God to make them alive? They only need to activate the latent faith that lays eternally within them?
And, you get this theology all from a portion of a sentence?
Here's the context of Romans 12. You have claimed context is important so I hope you mean this here as well.
(Romans 12:1-3)
And so, dear brothers and sisters, I plead with you to give your bodies to God because of all he has done for you. Let them be a living and holy sacrifice—the kind he will find acceptable. This is truly the way to worship him. Don’t copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God’s will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect. Because of the privilege and authority God has given me, I give each of you this warning: Don’t think you are better than you really are. Be honest in your evaluation of yourselves, measuring yourselves by the faith God has given us.
37818
Well-Known Member
I don't understand.
Are you saying there are two faiths?
One, given at conception and the other given at some other unspecified time?
Is it correct to think that you believe saving faith is given before salvation?
I do not understand your position.
The Rapture is a resurrection event that includes both the living and dead among the Church, and this teaching of Scripture differs greatly from the "... meeting Jesus in the air" associated with the amillennial view.
If you don't mind, could you state your view as to what the thousand years in Revelation 20 speak of?
And could you explain when this "meeting in the air with Jesus takes place in your prophetic timeline, and where the saints go when He returns?
You say that "... we meet Jesus on his return to rule forever," which would have to have the current universe passing away at His return, and the new heavens and Earth established immediately after, wouldn't it? So what do you do with the thousand years and the events described in detail taking place in that period?
And, you might ask Beale if he wants to come on the site to give his view. There's commentary out there for every position, but that kinda defeats the purpose of a doctrinal discussion forum, doesn't it?
God bless.
No JD because scripture refutes it!... There is already a place for us prepare by the Lord and he told his disciples the same thing and what applies to them applies to us... I believe scripture, you believe speculation!... Brother Glen
John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
I'm just not seeing Scripture refuting the physical kingdom that is spoken of in Prophecy in both the Old and New Testament. For example:
Isaiah 65:19-21
King James Version
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
At Christ's return, we are told there is a great battle that results in the death of the wicked, and following that battle we are given a timeline of events following:
Ezekiel 39 KJV
4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.
6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the Lord.
7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel.
8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord God; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord God.
14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.
Revelation 19:17-18
King James Version
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Daniel also speaks of a physical period of time that follows the Tribulation:
Daniel 12:6-13
King James Version
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
A "time, times, and half a time" is three and a half years. That's 1,260 days.So, from the time of the Abomination of Desolation (which takes place at the mid-point of the seven-year Tribulation taught in Revelation and follows the first 3 1/2 year period) we are told there will be 1,290 days, which adds a thirty day period after the 3 1/2 years appointed for the second half of the Tribulation. It is just my view that this period will be the Sheep and Goat Judgment described in Matthew 25, when Christ gathers the nations and separates them. Unbelievers (Goats) are destroyed physically and sent into everlasting punishment (Hades, not Hell, as verified in Revelation 20:5, and Revelation 20:12-15).
Then, we an additional 45 days added, bringing the total of time to 1,335 days. Again, this is from the time of the Abomination of desolation. So we have a total of 75 days unaccounted for in the timeline Scripture presents. This additional 45 days is likely the period of time in which the Kingdom prophesied in both Old and New Testaments is established.
On top of that, if we go back to Revelation 20, we see that Satan—bound for one thousand years—is loosed for a season, and goes out to deceive the unbelieving among the offspring of the saints who enter into the Millennial Kingdom:
Revelation 20:7-9
King James Version
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
How long does Satan have?
75 days.
So, since we know the Rapture is an indisputable Bible Doctrine, we need to know where Scripture points to it taking place.
It can't happen at Christ's Return, because all unbelievers are destroyed physically, and it's just a basic truth that no unbeliever can enter into the prophesied Kingdom:
John 3:5
King James Version
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
There must be physical people entering into that thousand year reign, and we can, by correlating the teachings of Scripture, understand that it is those born again during the Tribulation who are left to enter (Luke 17:24-37) that Kingdom. They produce the offspring that join ranks with Satan at the end of the thousand years and are destroyed physically, then resurrected with the "rest of the dead" (Revelation 20:5). So we can't have the Rapture at Christ's Return: that would leave no physical believers capable of procreation.
We do see the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 raptured (raised from the dead and caught up), but this resurrection event involves only two people.
So the only logical timing of the Rapture of the Church is prior to the beginning of the Tribulation.
So back to the original point: how does the passage you posted refute the Kingdom prophesied by Old Testament Prophets, by Christ Himself, and by the Apostles in great detail?
God bless.
Different than how those in this Age are justified?
Absolutely.
Luke 18:10-14
King James Version
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Because of his confession, did the Publican become eternally redeemed?
No: the Publican was temporally justified. Just as Abraham was.
Eternal Redemption involves Eternal Justification which is only achieved through a confession of faith in Christ:
Romans 3:21-26
King James Version
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Abraham was declared righteous, but his justification was still based upon what he did: he believed. He was temporally justified and when he died, was counted among the just.
When Christ died for his sin, he was justified by grace through the Eternal Redemption that is in Christ. It is a declaration of the righteousness of Christ, not the righteousness of Abraham, and it is imputed to those who believe on the Name of Jesus Christ.
When Abraham died, his sins were not yet atoned for, and v.25 speaks of his sin forgiven through the Cross of Christ.
If we back up in Hebrews ...
Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
All Old Testament Saints died awaiting Eternal Redemption, and—justification based on Christ's Work. Today, Born-again believers are justified on an eternal basis, but that doesn't mean temporally everything they do is also justified. Just as not everything Abraham did could be justified or considered righteous.
Understanding how we are born again and what that entails helps us to better understand Prophecy. The Church, as the OP states, is a separate group of people from the Old Testament Saints, the Tribulation Saints, the saints of the Millennial Kingdom, yet will all be the People of God in the Eternal State. All four groups are found in differing administrations of God, and we can easily differentiate those Ages. For example, in the Age of Law, the Law was established and served as the means of relationship. That means, has been abrogated, and now relationship with God is specifically through Jesus Christ (John 15:1-5).
God bless.
I would just ask this: where in the Old Testament do we see anyone "saved" according to the Eternal Redemption that Christ accomplished? Who was quickened? And how was that accomplished prior to the coming of the eternally indwelling Comforter?
It's not there.
As far as whether one must endure in order to make an "arrival in Heaven," you may want to refer to the Writer of Hebrews:
Hebrews 10:10-14
King James Version
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
If we study Hebrews, we find that those under Law (and Hebrews deals primarily with a contrast between those saved in this Age and those who were under the Covenant of Law) were not made "perfect," which means completion. The Law was but a shadow, a figure, a parable of the redemption it foreshadowed. We can easily see that shadow in the vicarious death of animals in the sinner's stead under Old Testament economies, and we can easily distinguish those sacrifices—and their temporary remission of sin—with Christ's sacrifice of Himself.
What the Writer states here is that while those under the Law were not made complete and sacrifices were unending, the Sacrifice of Christ makes those who are sanctified by His death complete in regards to remission of sins—forever.
Do you think that it is you personally enduring that gets you an "arrival into Heaven?"
Can I tell you that those who are born again—have a reservation that not even we can interfere with?
1 Peter 1:3-5
King James Version
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
When Christ said He would send another Comforter, and that He would come, He also stated He would be with us forever. We are either fully trusting Christ for our salvation, or we are trusting in ourselves.
God bless.
Paul separates national Israel from those who are in Christ. Jew and Gentile are made one through faith in Christ, yet we still see Israel spoken of as a separate entity from believers:
Ephesians 2:13-16
King James Version
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Christ did not add Gentiles to the believers under Law, He abrogated the Law which was only given as a temporary means of relationship until Christ should come:
Galatians 3:19
King James Version
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
We are ministers of the New Covenant:
2 Corinthians 3:6
King James Version
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Christ is the Mediator of the New Covenant:
Matthew 26:27-28
King James Version
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
We see that Israel, as a nation, yet remains to be redeemed:
Romans 11:25-27
King James Version
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
The reason that "... all Israel shall be saved" is that Israel's national redemption takes place through the events of the Tribulation, and, when the Tribulation ends—only those who have been brought into New Covenant relationship (born-again believers) will remain, All unbelievers among Israel will either die in the Tribulation or be put to death at the Sheep and Goat Judgment.
God bless.
Actually, people were justified by keeping the Law. For example:
Luke 1:5-6
King James Version
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
As far as the expectation of the Kingdom that all Israel held as the Promise of God ...
Acts 1:6-7
King James Version
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
The Lord doesn't say, "Sorry, We have a new plan," He states it isn't for the disciples to know the times or the seasons for the Restoration of Israel. God has not cast His people away.
Just because people weren't eternally redeemed by the Law (and couldn't be), doesn't mean no one kept the Law or were justified in a temporal context, like the Publican that confessed his sin.
But we have to distinguish between the temporal and the eternal, or we aren't going to get our Eschatology right. Our Eschatology will only be as strong as our Soteriology.
God bless.
I have to agree with the OP: the amillennial view does indeed deny many (I would not say all, lol) of the promises God gives Israel. That God not only promises to restore Israel and gives that restoration in great detail of physical character must be denied in order for one to embrace the amillennial position.
And, no—the New Covenant is not for Israel only. But, it is incontrovertible fact that God specifically promises Israel that at a future date He will bring Israel (as a Nation) under a New Covenant. The mystery surrounding Israel's blindness (Romans 11) and eventual redemption goes hand-in-hand with the Mystery of the indwelling of Christ:
Colossians 1:25-27
King James Version
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Back to the New Covenant:
Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Gentile Inclusion was a mystery as well: no one knew God was going to create a new people, though they should have:
Isaiah 49:7-8
King James Version
7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
Isaiah 42:5-7
King James Version
5 Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
The point being, the promise of the New Covenant was for all families of the Earth, however, it is specifically given to Israel as a nation. Many prophecies speak of the restoration, and it will be in the Millennial Kingdom that Israel—all of Israel—will be redeemed. It hasn't happened yet, and it is for the amillenialist to show from Scripture why Paul's teachings, and the teachings of Revelation will somehow go unfulfilled.
The idea that it was fulfilled in the first century has no valid basis. We do not see the events of Revelation fulfilled then, nor does it correlate to all prophecy. While I acknowledge that it is reasonable for someone to see a partial fulfillment, in that scenario, we do not see prophecy fulfilled as it has always been fulfilled—to the joy and tittle.
Where is the First Resurrection, the Rapture, or the Restoration of Israel as promised by God in His Word?
It just isn't found in the first century, and because of that, as I said, I agree with the OP.
God bless.
Nope. No one, except Jesus Christ, has ever been justified by keeping the law. "All have fallen short" of God's requirement to keep all of the law. All have failed and received a declaration of guilty from God the Father.
If one could have been justified by keeping the law, then Jesus didn't need to die.
(Luke 1:5-6)
When Herod was king of Judea, there was a Jewish priest named Zechariah. He was a member of the priestly order of Abijah, and his wife, Elizabeth, was also from the priestly line of Aaron. Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous in God’s eyes, careful to obey all of the Lord’s commandments and regulations.
Notice that they were not justified by keeping the law. They were devoted to obedience of God's law, but they were justified by faith in the coming Promised One.
(Luke 1:41-45)
At the sound of Mary’s greeting, Elizabeth’s child leaped within her, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. Elizabeth gave a glad cry and exclaimed to Mary, “God has blessed you above all women, and your child is blessed. Why am I so honored, that the mother of my Lord should visit me? When I heard your greeting, the baby in my womb jumped for joy. You are blessed because you believed that the Lord would do what he said.”
So what do you do with the thousand years?
Not sure what you mean: you admit you believe there is a rapture, so how is arguing for a Pre-Trib Rapture—a phantom?
Actually, no, the other views don't have Biblical Support for their position. And it is just a fact that many of the proof-texts used as support spiritualize and remove what Scripture states. The thousand years, for example: how can making it something other than a thousand years be justified?
Nothing in Revelation supports an amillennial view. Nothing.
God bless.
The New Covenant, first expressed in Jeremiah and Ezekiel, is fully established in Christ and for all who believe (the Church universal). All the promises given in the Old Testament are given to the Redeemed people of God, The Israel of God, which encompasses both Jew and Gentile, slave and free, male and female. There is no segregation. Jesus ended the Mosaic Covenant with the nation of Israel at the cross when he declared, "it is finished."
Luke 1:5-6
King James Version
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
It's right there. Why would you deny the clear statement of the passage?
As mentioned earlier, the failure to distinguish between a temporal and an eternal context is the primary foundation of all erroneous positions.
Abraham fell short, but will you deny he was justified as well?
Again, it is right there:
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Luke defines their righteousness: they walked in all of the commandments and ordinances of the Lord—blameless.
If you would like to submit a reason that Scripture doesn't state clearly, please do so at this time.
lol
When Herod was king of Judea, there was a Jewish priest named Zechariah. He was a member of the priestly order of Abijah, and his wife, Elizabeth, was also from the priestly line of Aaron. Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous in God’s eyes, careful to obey all of the Lord’s commandments and regulations.
Are you suggesting they were righteous due to their lineage?
Lineage did not make one righteous in Old Testament economies, nor does it make one righteous in this Age:
John 1:12-13
King James Version
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
You'd have to tell me what point you sought to make with this passage. The filling of the Spirit in Old Testament economies was for the purpose of empowerment for ministry (i.e., Prophet, Priest, King, Warrior, etc.). Here, Elizabeth prophesies.
God bless.
This has been explained ad nauseum.
Satan is presently bound and is not given the capacity to raise up all governments against the church. 1000 years is a figurative number, not an exact number. We are now living in both the millennium and in the time of tribulation. Soon enough Satan will be given full ability to raise up all the nations to destroy the Church. We all will be forced underground. At that time, Jesus will return and the events of Revelation 19 will happen.
Because there is no mention of a rapture before tribulation hits the churches and God's people. There is no mention that the Beast and the False Prophet are future. We have already witnessed a Beast and False Prophet in every century. When John first wrote, the Beast was Caesar and the False Prophet was the empire wide demand to worship Caesar or be killed.
Read Amillennial commentaries from Rittenbarger and Beale. You will see that nearly every sentence John writes is tied to the Old Testament.
Not once, in the entire letter, does John use literal numbers. They are all figurative in keeping with apocalyptic writing and the cultural use of gematria in the society of the time.
To the contrary, amillenialism shows you how the entire Old Testament is connected.
God bless you as well.
The combination of your two verses in connection with the other verse in Luke 1 show you that Elizabeth knew she needed a Redeemer because she was not justified by keeping the law.
That's great. Scripture?
And I agree, there is no segregation amongst the Church (i.s., Jew or Gentile, male, nor female, free nor bond), but you have ignored the very prophecy already presented to you:
Romans 11
King James Version
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
You are saying God has cast away His People, not only identified as Israel, but specified according to the tribe Paul was a part of.
No member of the Body of Christ, the Church—is identified as a tribesman. Because there is no Jew in the Church, but the new man Christ created.
Romans 11:24-27
King James Version
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Gentiles are contrasted with Israel. Blindness in part is upon Israel in Paul's day. When exactly did Christ come and turn away ungodliness from Jacob?
Where in Scripture do we find this second coming of Christ, and why is it that Israel is still a secular nation in need of Christ?
God bless.
I don't know if you are keeping up with current events, but if you think Satan is restrained in the governments of the world I'm not sure what to tell you.
As far as Satan destroying the Church, again, as always, I'm going to ask where exactly Scripture teaches the Church is destroyed by Satan?
For that matter, where exactly is the Church in Revelation? After John addresses the churches of his day, there is no mention of them until we see them with the Spirit issuing a call to salvation. They aren't on the earth at that point.
It is true the timing of the Rapture isn't given, but the logical timing is before the Tribulation. Can't happen after the Tribulation, because this leaves no one to physically to inhabit the thousand year kingdom described in Revelation 20.
And since all of Revelation is future (letters to the churches aside), it is kind of obvious that the Antichrist and the False Prophet are future.
We have witnessed the spirit of antichrist and false prophets throughout the centuries, but not the Antichrist, the beast of Revelation, nor the False Prophet. These are two literal men who are cast into the Lake of Fire:
Revelation 19:20
King James Version
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Is the Lake of Fire figurative? Is Christ's teachings on the eternal damnation of the wicked also figurative?
Are you seeing the pattern of your support? It demands that you spiritualize anything that doesn't agree with what you want to believe.
Read the Word of God. Get away from the commentaries for a while and spend some time with God.
Old Testament Prophecy:
Daniel 12:7-12
King James Version
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
New Testament Prophecy:
Revelation 11:2
But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Revelation 13:5
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Revelation 12:14
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
The Prophecy seems pretty consistent. 3 1/2 years in both.
A figurative interpretation is in stark contrast with the events taking place during this time.
Revelation 9:5
And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
Why not take the Word of God in a more consistent pattern?
Were not the seventy sevens literal years?
How many days did Christ reside in the grave? Were those literal days, or just a figure of speech meaning something else? Why spiritualize the events of Revelation but not the time frame of the Lord's death prior to His resurrection?
Sorry, but I've debated with enough Amillennials to know that there is no reason to create a new pattern of interpretation that cherrypicks what it believes is figurative and what it doesn't. We determine what is figurative through the context, and the contexts of the time frames in Revelation don't allow for such spurious conclusions.
Thanks! And Merry Christmas, my friend!
God bless.
- Status