Is man restricted to his own Nature?

[TCassidy]

You invent your own definitions of what Total Depravity means. It is also known as "total inability"!

No, I don't. It was an ignorant Semi-Pelagian who coined the term "total inability."

Total Depravity refers to the totality of man, body, soul, and spirit.

What you are talking about is "free will." Man is free to choose, but the lost man hates God, is the enemy of God, rejects God, thinks the Gospel is foolish, he can't understand it. He not only can't, he doesn't want to and won't love, accept, believe and repent.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Comparing yourself to Jesus or to Paul was what was foolish.

see, you just look to cause trouble! I was NOT comparing myself to anyone, but stated the fact that there are times when we have to say things, that may cause offense to some, as the Gospel Message is just that!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

No, I don't. It was an ignorant Semi-Pelagian who coined the term "total inability."

Total Depravity refers to the totality of man, body, soul, and spirit.

What you are talking about is "free will." Man is free to choose, but the lost man hates God, is the enemy of God, rejects God, thinks the Gospel is foolish, he can't understand it. He not only can't, he doesn't want to and won't love, accept, believe and repent.

Now, this is more nonsense! I know many unsaved who do NOT hate God, or "enemies" of God. Sure they are deceived and lost, but that does not mean that they are enemies of God! You guys with your warped "theology", sure to put-off people by your, hard, unloving language! I was 20 when I was saved, and I never did hate God at any time!

 

[utilyan]

You have read where in Isaiah God compares our very best good works as being filthy rages before Him?
That ALL are already condemned as being found in Adam as sinners, correct?
Trust me i this, that none of us were worth jesus death in our place, as we have nothing that merited any favor from God, that is why its called grace!

I have read where ISAIAH compares at the time rebellious Israel as filthy rags.

Same chapter he says:
Isaiah 64
5You meet him who rejoices in doing righteousness,
Who remembers You in Your ways.

By virtue of the same flawed theological logic, God rejoices in everyone! just because Isaiah mentions it.

By all means show me the verse where GOD says everyone is a filthy rag .

To state a person deserves hell equates to you believing that God should be insulted for an eternity.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This is the double-talk of the Westminster Confession of Faith:

"God from all eternity did by the most and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."

So, here we have God "ordaining" whatsoever (everything) that comes to pass, and then they try to wriggle out, by saying it does not make God the author of sin! If God ordains ALL THINGS, then this MUST include sin, or else it is NOT all things!

You make allot of assumptions...1st do you even know what the Westminster Confessions even is and who adheres to them? Certainly not Baptists! As a side note, I keep hearing in the innermost recess of my mind the Jethro Tull song “thick as a brick”...don’t be that!

 

[TCassidy]

So, here we have God "ordaining" whatsoever (everything) that comes to pass, and then they try to wriggle out, by saying it does not make God the author of sin! If God ordains ALL THINGS, then this MUST include sin, or else it is NOT all things!

So you think his book is inspired but the bible isn't?

Anyone with an IQ greater than his hat size knows God does not ordain all things in a decretal manner.

Here are the decrees of God from the bible. (Not from some confused guy's book).

Psa 2:7 I will tell of the decree. Yahweh said to me, “You are my son. Today I have become your father.

Psa 148:6 He has also established them forever and ever. He has made a decree which will not pass away.

Isa 28:22 Now therefore don’t be scoffers, lest your bonds be made strong; for I have heard a decree of destruction from the Lord, Yahweh of Armies, on the whole earth.

Jer 5:22 Don’t you fear me?’ says Yahweh ‘Won’t you tremble at my presence, who have placed the sand for the bound of the sea, by a perpetual decree, that it can’t pass it? Though its waves toss themselves, yet they can’t prevail. Though they roar, they still can’t pass over it.’

Dan 4:24 “This is the interpretation, O king, and it is the decree of the Most High, which has come on my lord the king:

Show me in that list where God decreed sin?

Throw away your stupid book and just trust the bible.

 

[HankD]

Hank, I mean no disrespect in my reply, but it is almost impossible to have a meaningful theological discussion without adopting some labels, if for no other reason than sheer brevity. For instance, let us say we are going to do away with the label "Calvinist". Does that mean everytime we discuss the theological position that is Calvinism we have to say, "the doctrine that teaches that God has predestined His Elect from all eternity and saves them by calling them in time through the preaching of the Gospel"? I know. I am being a bit facetious here, but that is for effect. Hopefully, you get my point. If you go to any respected seminary on either side of the debate they are replete with labels. It is just the way it is.

I am not saying this is your reason, but often times individuals refuse labels because they do not want to go on the record about what they believe. They leave themselves an out, just like a politician. In other words, they do not want to be wrong. Now, I agree that we can "ism" things to death. That happens when a person has not taken the time (or does not possess the ability) to reason from scripture on a point of doctrine. It is easier to jump on someone else's bandwagon than to put together a biblical defense.

I understand Ref. IMO Labels are a necessary evil.

All they really do is warn folks of each others territorial boundaries. We are a territorial race we humans and we go to war to protect whats in our domain. religion certainly no exception.

And some of that is (or has become) an unfortunate necessity to protect ourselves and those to whom Christ has given to us to guard.

My own labels: Christian, Trinitarian, Baptist, progressive dispensationalist, Mugwump (Truly undecided about C/A)

That's enough. Head is spinning now (figuratively speaking).

HankD

 

[Reformed]

I understand Ref. IMO Labels are a necessary evil.

All they really do is warn folks of each others territorial boundaries. We are a territorial race we humans and we go to war to protect whats in our domain.
religion certainly no exception.

And some of that is (or has become) an unfortunate necessity to protect ourselves and those to whom Christ has given to us to guard.

My own labels: Christian, Trinitarian, Baptist, progressive dispensationalist, Mugwump (Truly undecided about C/A)

That's enough. Head is spinning now (figuratively speaking).

HankD

Take two Alka-Seltzer and call me in the morning.

 

[TCassidy]

So you saying that there are some things that God does not "pre-ordain"?

Well, Duh! You mean it finally sunk in? God does not and did not and will not ordain sin. Period.

 

[utilyan]

Your argument is not with Katarina, it is with Scripture that clearly, and unequivocally, teaches that the sinner is fallen and totally depraved in thought and deed, and as a consequence of that fallen nature faces an eternity apart from God in hell. I would provide the scriptures that have been cited previously but it's folly to do so because you will not read or interact with them in an honest manner.

P.S. Edited to correct grammar.

I never brought up her hypocrisy--> "Name calling and assaulting a person's character is uncharitable"

Of which total depravity and deserving to go to hell is the paramount uncharitable insult that can be brought forth against anyone.

There is no name calling or assault of character WORST, nothing that holds a candle then being told you worth nothing and deserve hell,

I'm all ears if you got assault or name calling thats worst, please give an example.

Acts 10

28And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean.

I flat out show you a verse against your stance.^


Its hypocrisy.


"I would provide the scriptures that have been cited previously but it's folly to do so because you will not read or interact with them in an honest manner."

You won't provide scripture because you don't have any.

Not saying you are,
A chicken will always cop out, always relies on deception, always a liar.


I love all scripture and would gladly go word for word to what it says. Quite confidently NOTHING supports your position.


The idea that a person DESERVES to actively sin against God is satanic in origin.

 

[HankD]

Take two Alka-Seltzer and call me in the morning.

OK Doc.



HankD

 

[TCassidy]

see, you just look to cause trouble! I was NOT comparing myself to anyone, but stated the fact that there are times when we have to say things, that may cause offense to some, as the Gospel Message is just that!

You effectively said "Because Jesus did it I can do it too." Just own up to it.

 

[TCassidy]

This is the double-talk of the Westminster Confession of Faith:

What does an Anglican/Presbyterian confession have to do with Baptists?

 

[TCassidy]

I know many unsaved who do NOT hate God, or "enemies" of God.

So the bible is lying when it says we love Him because He FIRST loved us? And it is lying when it says in Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be?

Wow. You just keep digging that hole deeper and deeper.

 

[HankD]

RE: Hating God
For this reason, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to show us that we hated Him.

We are/were unaware of it. else there is no need for a revelation of a Savior.


7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

To believe not on Jesus Christ is to hate God and be the recipient of His wrath.

John 3
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.


HankD

 

[Yeshua1]

I have read where ISAIAH compares at the time rebellious Israel as filthy rags.

Same chapter he says:
Isaiah 64
5You meet him who rejoices in doing righteousness,
Who remembers You in Your ways.

By virtue of the same flawed theological logic, God rejoices in everyone! just because Isaiah mentions it.

By all means show me the verse where GOD says everyone is a filthy rag .

To state a person deserves hell equates to you believing that God should be insulted for an eternity.

Paul and peter both quoted Isaiah though, and agreed with him that we are in sin, do not seek God, and will die in our sins!

 

[Mr. Davis]

Total depravity is a false doctrine.

I believe in "Total Inability."

Do you?

 

[Mr. Davis]

No, I don't. It was an ignorant Semi-Pelagian who coined the term "total inability."

Total Depravity refers to the totality of man, body, soul, and spirit.

What you are talking about is "free will." Man is free to choose, but the lost man hates God, is the enemy of God, rejects God, thinks the Gospel is foolish, he can't understand it. He not only can't, he doesn't want to and won't love, accept, believe and repent.

Please forgive my ignorance. I no longer believe in Total Inability.

I'll stick with TULIP!

 

[TCassidy]

Please forgive my ignorance. I no longer believe in Total Inability.

I'll stick with TULIP!

I prefer TULEP. The "E" stands for Efficacious Grace. (God's Grace ALWAYS accomplishes exactly what He intended it to accomplish.)

It may be atrocious spelling, but it is good theology!

 

[Mr. Davis]

Dan 4:24 “This is the interpretation, O king, and it is the decree of the Most High, which has come on my lord the king:

Show me in that list where God decreed sin?

Is sin and evil in His Permissive Will?