Is The Papacy Threatened?

[BillySunday1935]

In response to this, from Billy Sunday...

Are you sure of your salvation, DHK?

DHK posted...

"Billy, I know that if I should die tonight I would go straight to heaven. I know that as surely as if I was already there."

I feel exactly the same way. Heaven is my sure and eternal destination. It is a 100% gurantee. Why?

Because salvation is ALL OF GOD, and NONE of *me*...other than faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. To add ANYTHING to faith, makes it a false gospel.

Praise God.

Yes - all salvation comes from God's grace. However, I believe that there is more to it than faith alone. Not long ago, I had to honestly ask myself the following questions:

1. If we are saved by faith alone, then we don’t need to love anyon, even God in order to be saved. However, if we do indeed need to love in order to be saved then we are not saved by faith alone are we? We are saved by faith AND love or as its often called “faith working through love. “(Galatians 5:6) If however, one is saying that we do not need love in order to get to heaven, then one must believe that we can get to heaven without loving God or our fellow man. Clearly, this last position is unscriptural.

2. If it is faith alone without love (some translations use the word charity), then why does 1 Corinthians 13:13 say that love is greater than faith?
"But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is faith"? No. It’s love. Shouldn’t it be the other way around? After all, if salvation is the greatest thing that we can obtain, and it is by faith alone that we obtain it, then faith should be greater than love right? Unfortunately, the bible says differently.

3. If you have faith but not works can your faith save you? If one were to answer yes to this question, then one contradicts scripture. (James 2:14-17)

4. If salvation by faith alone is one of the most seminal of Christian doctrines, then why do the words faith and alone appear together only once in scripture? And that is to say that we are NOT justified or saved by faith alone (James 2:24).

5. Is whether or not we have faith, God’s sole criteria for judging us worthy of salvation? If the answer is no, then it is not salvation by faith alone. If however, one where to answer yes to this question, then why does every passage in the New Testament dealing with judgment say that we will be judged by our works? For example Matthew 24, John 15, Romans 2, Revelation 20, and many, MANY more.

6. Do we have to forgive others in order to have our sins forgiven by God? If one were to answer yes to this question, then we are not saved by faith alone. After all, we cannot be saved, if our sins are not forgiven by God. And if we cannot have our sins forgiven by God if we do not forgive others, then we cannot be saved. Therefore, we are forgiven by faith, and at least one work; the act of forgiving others of their sins against us. If, however, one responds with no to the above question, then one is going against what Jesus commanded in Matthew 6:14.

I know that these are hard questions but they are honest ones.

Praise God!

 

[BillySunday1935]

I think this is the defining difference. How is a Catholic a Christian? According to the Catholic Church this is based on being baptised using the trinitarian formula no matter the disposition of the person. snip...

It was my understanding that the CC believes that one must be baptised by water and the Holy Spirit. Only God knows the persons actual disposition - whether Baptist or Catholic.

Peace!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It was my understanding that the CC believes that one must be baptised by water and the Holy Spirit. Only good knows the persons actual disposition - whether Baptist or Catholic.

Peace!

The Catholic Church views the Church as the Kingdom of God thus Baptism as a sacrament confers grace onto the individual no matter their disposition. Then the catholic church holds that infants faith (in trust) through out the life of that child. This person is also admitted as a citizen in the kingdom of God whether they apply the principles of that kingdom to their lives or not. The filling of the Holy Spirit happens when the person is confirmed in the faith. Another sacrament which confers grace of pentecost on the observer.

 

[Trotter]

Yes - all salvation comes from God's grace. However, I believe that there is more to it than faith alone. Not long ago, I had to honestly ask myself the following questions:

1. If we are saved by faith alone, then we don’t need to love anyon, even God in order to be saved. However, if we do indeed need to love in order to be saved then we are not saved by faith alone are we? We are saved by faith AND love or as its often called “faith working through love. “(Galatians 5:6) If however, one is saying that we do not need love in order to get to heaven, then one must believe that we can get to heaven without loving God or our fellow man. Clearly, this last position is unscriptural.

2. If it is faith alone without love (some translations use the word charity), then why does 1 Corinthians 13:13 say that love is greater than faith?
"But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is faith"? No. It’s love. Shouldn’t it be the other way around? After all, if salvation is the greatest thing that we can obtain, and it is by faith alone that we obtain it, then faith should be greater than love right? Unfortunately, the bible says differently.

3. If you have faith but not works can your faith save you? If one were to answer yes to this question, then one contradicts scripture. (James 2:14-17)

4. If salvation by faith alone is one of the most seminal of Christian doctrines, then why do the words faith and alone appear together only once in scripture? And that is to say that we are NOT justified or saved by faith alone (James 2:24).

5. Is whether or not we have faith, God’s sole criteria for judging us worthy of salvation? If the answer is no, then it is not salvation by faith alone. If however, one where to answer yes to this question, then why does every passage in the New Testament dealing with judgment say that we will be judged by our works? For example Matthew 24, John 15, Romans 2, Revelation 20, and many, MANY more.

6. Do we have to forgive others in order to have our sins forgiven by God? If one were to answer yes to this question, then we are not saved by faith alone. After all, we cannot be saved, if our sins are not forgiven by God. And if we cannot have our sins forgiven by God if we do not forgive others, then we cannot be saved. Therefore, we are forgiven by faith, and at least one work; the act of forgiving others of their sins against us. If, however, one responds with no to the above question, then one is going against what Jesus commanded in Matthew 6:14.

I know that these are hard questions but they are honest ones.

Praise God!

You obviously have no understanding of what grace or faith actually are, sir.

1. One is saved by grace, period. The faith comes from God. One cannot have the Spirit of God within their hearts and not love. Love is an outpouring of salvation, not a condition of it.

2. See #1. Love is evidence of salvation. Paul was writing to the Corinthian church. If you do some research you will find that the Corinthians were extremely worldly are were treating members of the body of Christ without love. Paul addressed this situation and, in doing so, showed us what a saved heart is like.

3. Works is a result of faith. Try reading James in context and with the rest of the bible. James says faith without works is dead because there is no evidence of the faith. I can show someone my faith by my works, but if I had no works I would have no evidence. Is a quadriplegic any less saved because they can't DO for the Lord? No.

4. See #3.

5. Again, you have no concept of grace and faith. We are saved by grace. The faith we have is not our own but is given to us by God. If it were of us we would only stay saved as long as we could hold out. There are times when my faith is weak but praise God He retains His hold on me.

It is by grace that Christ's righteousness has been accounted to me as well as all others who have accepted Him as Lord and Savior. what can any man do to secure salvation? What can any man do to EARN the imputed righteousness of Christ? Or do you think that a man can attain his own righteousness that will equal or exceed Christ's (as only Christ's righteousness is enough to fulfill the judgment of God)?

6. See #1. Forgiveness, like love, is an outpouring of the Spirit within the saved. Jesus spoke many times about hating your brother and forgiveness. One cannot harbor hate in the heart and maintain a right relationship with God. He must be Lord, not hatred.

Actually, these are not hard questions at all. They require knowing the scriptures and understanding grace and faith. Many do struggle with them, though, and that is how so many come up with a works based "salvation" that is no salvation at all.

I do pray that you discover true grace. Grace is radical in that it is something we do not, nor could we ever, deserve. God saw fit to send His Son to come and take our place so that we could have eternal life with Him. It took the Son of God to fulfill God's righteous judgment and our only hope is through Him and this free gift of grace that cost Him so much.

 

[DHK]

It was my understanding that the CC believes that one must be baptised by water and the Holy Spirit. Only God knows the persons actual disposition - whether Baptist or Catholic.

Peace!

Read my signature line and consider the verse.

Here is another verse for you to consider:
1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
--You either have the Son or you don't. It is cut and dry. I have the Son of God. I am saved. I know that. Do you know that?

Consider again:
1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
--John wrote that he wrote these things in this epistle that you would believe on the name of the Son of God. Do you?
Furthermore he wrote that ye may know that ye have eternal life.
The emphasis is on "know". It is not "hope so," "guess so," "think so," BUT "know so". I know that I have eternal life based on the promises of God.
Why? The end of the verse: Because "I have believed on the name of Son of God. Have you?

Again:
John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
--John states the purpose of the writing of his gospel--that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you might have life through his name." Do you?

It is a cut and dry situation. Either you know or you don't know. To wait for the judgment day is to wait too long. Either He is your Savior now or he will be your Judge in eternity. And that won't be a pretty sight.

 

[DHK]

Baptists are not usually creedal people. However if you follow the links in your own church website you would come to the SBC statement of faith: (basic beliefs)
http://sbc.net/aboutus/basicbeliefs.asp

You could even look at the statement of faith of the board in which you are posting:
http://www.baptistboard.com/sof.html

I have posted these two links above:
http://www.baptistboard.com/sof.html

http://sbc.net/aboutus/basicbeliefs.asp

There may be some small differences between the two, but it would be minor. I would encourage you to go through them.



Salvation is more than just a feeling. Make sure of it.

How about taking the challenge and going through the Baptist Statement of Faith as you said you would, Billy.

 

[Alive in Christ]

BillySunday....

I need clarification here. Are you saying that you were not a christian while in the Catholic Church?

Yes, that is what I was saying. The reason I was never a christian during those years is that I never once heard the gospel.

I heard the false gospel that the Catholic Church proclaims. Never was born of the Spirit.

I was born of the Spirit much later through the witness of actual christians whom I encountered at places where I worked, on the streets, on christian radio and TV, etc.

Is it your contention that Catholics aren't christians or were you just speaking from your own personal experience? No disrepect intended.

No disrespect taken. :wavey:

I have no doubt that MOST Catholics are not christians, because they hear and propagate a false gospel. But their certainly can be individual catholics who know the Lord.

Perhaps they were born again through the witness of evangelicals, then got sucked into Catholicism. They certainly dont lose their salvation, as salvation can not be lost once attained.

Some might accidently stumble on to saving faith, in spite of being catholic, through reading of the scriptures. The norm when that happens is to flee Catholicism....but if some decide to stay in for some reason, they are still saved...just out of Gods will.

Some ex-catholics stay in the catholic church in order to witness as to the true gospel from within.

Salvation is a matter of the heart, and of course we cant read the heart.

But....GENERALLY speaking, Catholics are not saved, although there can be exceptions.

 

[BillySunday1935]

You obviously have no understanding of what grace or faith actually are, sir.

If by that you mean that I have no understanding of your interpretation of scripture here, then you are correct.

1. If we are saved by faith alone, then we don’t need to love anyone do we, even God in order to be saved? However, if we do indeed need to love in order to be saved then we are not saved by faith alone are we? We are saved by faith AND love, which Catholics refer to as faith working through love. (Galatians 5:6) If however, one is saying that we do not need love in order to get to heaven, then one must believe that we can get to heaven without loving God or our fellow man. Clearly, this is a ridiculous and unscriptural position to take.

1. One is saved by grace, period. The faith comes from God. One cannot have the Spirit of God within their hearts and not love. Love is an outpouring of salvation, not a condition of it.

I agree. However, you didn’t answer the question regarding Sola Fide… If it’s grace working through faith then by definition it’s NOT by faith alone.

"But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is faith"? No.
It’s love. Shouldn’t it be the other way around? After all, if salvation is the greatest thing that we can obtain, and it is by faith alone that we obtain it, then faith should be greater than love right? Unfortunately, the bible says differently.

2. See #1. Love is evidence of salvation. Paul was writing to the Corinthian church. If you do some research you will find that the Corinthians were extremely worldly are were treating members of the body of Christ without love. Paul addressed this situation and, in doing so, showed us what a saved heart is like.

Well, you have given me your interpretation of the passage; however, scripture does not say that “Love is evidence of salvation.” I loved my wife and did so before I became a follower of Christ, but I think no one here would argue that love to be evidence of salvation. Again, you have failed to address the specific question.

If you have faith but not works can your faith save you? If one were to answer yes to this question, then one contradicts scripture. (James 2:14-17) In the past I have had Protestants respond to this verse by stating that James and Paul are talking about two different kinds of faith, but that simply does not wash with scripture. At least I can’t find it there. Oops Sola Scriptura again.

3. Works is a result of faith. Try reading James in context and with the rest of the bible. James says faith without works is dead because there is no evidence of the faith. I can show someone my faith by my works, but if I had no works I would have no evidence. Is a quadriplegic any less saved because they can't DO for the Lord? No.

4. See #3.

Ok-let’s look at the relevant text of James:

James 2:14-26
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Notice how Abraham was justified by works when HE offered up Isaac on the altar.

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Faith was made perfect through works? This doesn’t sound like faith coming from grace. But, let’s read on...

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD ALSO.

Here, James is making a simple analogy; faith is made analogous to the body and works are made analogous to the spirit. As the body and spirit are both necessary for life (if we lose our spirit we lose our life), for this analogy to hold, faith and works are BOTH necessary for life. Faith without works is dead, just as the body without the spirit is dead. Thus, just as in physical life one needs the body and the spirit, for eternal life one needs faith AND works. I think the meaning is abundantly clear here.

5. Again, you have no concept of grace and faith. We are saved by grace. The faith we have is not our own but is given to us by God.

Not according to James in the above…

If it were of us we would only stay saved as long as we could hold out. There are times when my faith is weak but praise God He retains His hold on me.”

Then why are we called to persevere unto the end? I mean, if God holds us during times of weakness, there would be no admonition to persevere as he would - simply - hold us.

It is by grace that Christ's righteousness has been accounted to me as well as all others who have accepted Him as Lord and Savior. what can any man do to secure salvation?

Well, I don’t that think a man can secure his salvation or be completely assured of it for that matter.

What can any man do to EARN the imputed righteousness of Christ? Or do you think that a man can attain his own righteousness that will equal or exceed Christ's (as only Christ's righteousness is enough to fulfill the judgment of God)?

The question at hand has nothing to do with earning one’s salvation. I don’t hold to a works based salvation.

6. See #1. Forgiveness, like love, is an outpouring of the Spirit within the saved. Jesus spoke many times about hating your brother and forgiveness.
One cannot harbor hate in the heart and maintain a right relationship with God. He must be Lord, not hatred.

How does one not harbor hate without an act of the will? Further, if we are “maintaining” the relationship with God, then we are doing something – act – a work. You stated earlier that: “The faith we have is not our own but is given to us by God.” Recall James 2:14-16 that I discussed earlier:

“Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? “

If our faith is truly given us by God, it should need no perfection.

Actually, these are not hard questions at all. They require knowing the scriptures and understanding grace and faith. Many do struggle with them, though, and that is how so many come up with a works based "salvation" that is no salvation at all.

I understand grace and faith. I do, however, disagree with your theological model of them.

I do pray that you discover true grace. Grace is radical in that it is something we do not, nor could we ever, deserve. God saw fit to send His Son to come and take our place so that we could have eternal life with Him. It took the Son of God to fulfill God's righteous judgment and our only hope is through Him and this free gift of grace that cost Him so much.

Amen! We are saved by grace working through faith. However, we must cooperate with that grace – and action – a work.

Peace!

 

[BillySunday1935]

How about taking the challenge and going through the Baptist Statement of Faith as you said you would, Billy.

Wow! I didn't know that I was under a deadline for this. I'll try and get to it when I have some time. I did, look at two of them breifly. How about divorce? Some Bap. churches are ok with it and other are not. That sounds like a big difference to me.

 

[Zenas]

Wow! I didn't know that I was under a deadline for this. I'll try and get to it when I have some time. I did, look at two of them breifly. How about divorce? Some Bap. churches are ok with it and other are not. That sounds like a big difference to me.

BillySunday, you are no Baptist and you are being dishonest by representing that you are. I actually agree with the positions you are taking, although I'm probably the only Baptist here who does. However, the nature of your posts exposes your ignorance of Baptist culture. You know a lot about the Bible and you're very good at expressing yourself, and yet you have not read the Baptist Faith and Message. Come on! You say no Baptist church in the South would be liberal. Wrong! A large SBC church in Georgia is looking to be expelled from the convention right now because it has a woman pastor. There are lot of liberal Baptist churches in the deep South. Now you're asking about the Baptist position on divorce. Something doesn't add up here. I would hate for you to be banned because I like what you're saying but you may be heading in that direction.

 

[quantumfaith]

You obviously have no understanding of what grace or faith actually are, sir.

1. One is saved by grace, period. The faith comes from God. One cannot have the Spirit of God within their hearts and not love. Love is an outpouring of salvation, not a condition of it.

2. See #1. Love is evidence of salvation. Paul was writing to the Corinthian church. If you do some research you will find that the Corinthians were extremely worldly are were treating members of the body of Christ without love. Paul addressed this situation and, in doing so, showed us what a saved heart is like.

3. Works is a result of faith. Try reading James in context and with the rest of the bible. James says faith without works is dead because there is no evidence of the faith. I can show someone my faith by my works, but if I had no works I would have no evidence. Is a quadriplegic any less saved because they can't DO for the Lord? No.

4. See #3.

5. Again, you have no concept of grace and faith. We are saved by grace. The faith we have is not our own but is given to us by God. If it were of us we would only stay saved as long as we could hold out. There are times when my faith is weak but praise God He retains His hold on me.

It is by grace that Christ's righteousness has been accounted to me as well as all others who have accepted Him as Lord and Savior. what can any man do to secure salvation? What can any man do to EARN the imputed righteousness of Christ? Or do you think that a man can attain his own righteousness that will equal or exceed Christ's (as only Christ's righteousness is enough to fulfill the judgment of God)?

6. See #1. Forgiveness, like love, is an outpouring of the Spirit within the saved. Jesus spoke many times about hating your brother and forgiveness. One cannot harbor hate in the heart and maintain a right relationship with God. He must be Lord, not hatred.

Actually, these are not hard questions at all. They require knowing the scriptures and understanding grace and faith. Many do struggle with them, though, and that is how so many come up with a works based "salvation" that is no salvation at all.

I do pray that you discover true grace. Grace is radical in that it is something we do not, nor could we ever, deserve. God saw fit to send His Son to come and take our place so that we could have eternal life with Him. It took the Son of God to fulfill God's righteous judgment and our only hope is through Him and this free gift of grace that cost Him so much.

1*. One is saved by grace, in that, it is God's grace that the offer of salvation has even been extended to man, God initiates by providing the means and provision of salvation, man MUST have exercise faith in order to "actualize" salvation. Man does have a part, not of works, but of faith.

2.* Agreed

3.* Agreed

5.* It is not that he has no "concept" of grace and faith, just a "different" concept than do you. Our faith is granted to us because we were created in His image. Created with the ability to make rational, reasoned decisions. The ablility to "choose", yes I said it Choose.

 

[BillySunday1935]

BillySunday, you are no Baptist and you are being dishonest by representing that you are. I actually agree with the positions you are taking, although I'm probably the only Baptist here who does. However, the nature of your posts exposes your ignorance of Baptist culture. You know a lot about the Bible and you're very good at expressing yourself, and yet you have not read the Baptist Faith and Message."

Thanks for the nice comments.

Come on! You say no Baptist church in the South would be liberal. Wrong! A large SBC church in Georgia is looking to be expelled from the convention right now because it has a woman pastor. There are lot of liberal Baptist churches in the deep South.

I think that I said "A liberal Baptist Church here in South Alabama?" That narrows the field tremdously.

Besides, this statement was made based upon someone's premise that no liberal church could ever be a Baptist Church. Take that circuitous logic out and yes - there are many flavors of Baptists Churchs out there.

Now you're asking about the Baptist position on divorce. Something doesn't add up here."

I am simply attempting to point out the futility of DHK requesting a summary of how my beliefs compare with Baptist doctrines when there is no unified Baptist set of beliefs.

I would hate for you to be banned because I like what you're saying but you may be heading in that direction.

Why would I get banned? I have not violated the forum rules in any way.

 

[Zenas]

I think that I said "A liberal Baptist Church here in South Alabama?" That narrows the field tremdously.

What about FBC of Mobile? They are a CBF church and the only way you get to be a CBF church is when a sizeable number of your members have found the SBC too conservative for their liking.

 

[BillySunday1935]

What about FBC of Mobile? They are a CBF church and the only way you get to be a CBF church is when a sizeable number of your members have found the SBC too conservative for their liking.

I'm with you on this -- please read the context in which I made the previous comment as it was based upon a supposition stated by others. There are so many Baptist beliefs out there that it would be difficult to nail down a common Baptist doctrine. Hence, I can't agree/disagree with a set of beliefs that cannot be agreed upon by the Baptists themselves. In other words, I (or anyone for that matter) cannot evaluate that which does not currently exist.

Peace!

 

[BillySunday1935]

1*. One is saved by grace, in that, it is God's grace that the offer of salvation has even been extended to man, God initiates by providing the means and provision of salvation, man MUST have exercise faith in order to "actualize" salvation. Man does have a part, not of works, but of faith.

This is an excellent post. Now that I look at it, I see that we differ mostly over symantics. I believe that faith is an act of the will and, under that definition, it is a work. But it is not something by which we can earn our way into heaven (our works are as filthy rags) - only the grace of God can save us. I don't think we differ that much here.

 

[DHK]

Why would I get banned? I have not violated the forum rules in any way.

Yes you have. As Zenas, Trotter, myself and others have pointed out: you have been deceitful. You post in your profile that you are a Baptist. That is an outright lie isn't it? You have not posted anything that resembles the Baptist position. You do not believe in salvation by faith alone. Baptists do.
So why the deception? You aren't a Baptist? What are you? People get banned here, not for the position they hold; but rather for deception.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Yes you have. As Zenas, Trotter, myself and others have pointed out: you have been deceitful. You post in your profile that you are a Baptist. That is an outright lie isn't it? You have not posted anything that resembles the Baptist position. You do not believe in salvation by faith alone. Baptists do.
So why the deception? You aren't a Baptist? What are you? People get banned here, not for the position they hold; but rather for deception.

I was a raised a Baptist and attended a Baptist Church while living in Indiana for almost a year believing a lot that contradicted the 'Baptist Doctrine' before I finally left the Baptist Church...

In XC
-

 

[DHK]

I was a raised a Baptist and attended a Baptist Church while living in Indiana for almost a year believing a lot that contradicted the 'Baptist Doctrine' before I finally left the Baptist Church...

In XC
-

Why would you join something that you disagreed with in the first place. What you are telling me is that you never were a Baptist to begin with, which makes sense with your so-called "conversion" to the Orthodox faith. No true Baptist would do that would they?
In all the Baptist Churches I have ever been one has had to agree to a (their) statement of faith in order to become a member. If you don't agree to the Baptist statement of faith, then you don't become a member. That is universally true of every faith, business, corporation, philosophy, etc.

You didn't agree with Baptist doctrine; you weren't a Baptist were you?
You were just a pretender.

 

[Zenas]

Why would you join something that you disagreed with in the first place. What you are telling me is that you never were a Baptist to begin with, which makes sense with your so-called "conversion" to the Orthodox faith. No true Baptist would do that would they?
In all the Baptist Churches I have ever been one has had to agree to a (their) statement of faith in order to become a member. If you don't agree to the Baptist statement of faith, then you don't become a member. That is universally true of every faith, business, corporation, philosophy, etc.

You obviously haven't been in any of the Baptist churches I'm familiar with. DHK, you could visit my church next Sunday, walk down the aisle at the invitation, tell the pastor you are a baptized believer and you would be in. They would give you a card to fill out with your name, address, age and former church, if any. Later they would give you a folder of materials which detail the Sunday School classes, the nursery, the schedule of services, etc. This folder does not contain a statement of faith. You would have to ask for it if you wanted it. Never once, would you be asked about your beliefs concerning baptism, salvation, the Lord's Supper, the role of the church or anything else.

I would venture the opinion that BillySunday's purported church is that same way, so of course he could be a member there. No problem.

What concerns me about BillySunday is his lack of familiarlty with things Baptist. For example, in Post 182 he says, “What if I recite the Baptist creed for you . . . “? All Baptists know there is no such thing as a Baptist creed, we don't use words like "creed" except when referring to practices in someone else's church. And if he was just being "tongue in cheek" about the creed, that statement about no liberal churches in South Alabama is just baloney and any Baptist from that area would know it. Those are the things that raise doubt in my mind.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Why would you join something that you disagreed with in the first place. What you are telling me is that you never were a Baptist to begin with, which makes sense with your so-called "conversion" to the Orthodox faith. No true Baptist would do that would they?
In all the Baptist Churches I have ever been one has had to agree to a (their) statement of faith in order to become a member. If you don't agree to the Baptist statement of faith, then you don't become a member. That is universally true of every faith, business, corporation, philosophy, etc.

You didn't agree with Baptist doctrine; you weren't a Baptist were you?
You were just a pretender.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear in my post...I apologize and slow down a little...

I was raised a Baptist...I didn't "join" a Baptist Church...the Baptist Church, Independent Fundamental Baptist is all I ever known or ever attended...I was saved in Sunday School...the only time I attended something other than a Baptist Church, was when I was in the US Navy and attended "Protestant lay services"...

Around the Summer of 2002, I was living in Avon, Indiana..attending Faith Baptist Church a IFB Church and was members...my wife and I were in the adult Sunday School class and we started a topic called "Why I'm a Baptist"...Basically we traced our heritage to the NT Church, via the Trail of Blood...that class DHK opened up a lot of questions for me that couldn't be answered in regard to Church History...that was just a launching pad for other questions that I began to ask...in the past I just took the Pastors word for it and went my merry way...

It was then I began to question much of the Baptist Doctrine, thus even though I was still on the Baptist roll, I was in essence redefining my thinking as I began studying Church History...finally after a year I left and started attending a United Methodist Church (during this time I joined BB).

BTW DHK, there were LOTS of members of our Baptist Church that only came on Sunday who didn't know heads from tales regarding any of the Baptist Doctrines...

In XC
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