Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
it's just, "all kinds of men", meaning, "not the jews, only", & and "not the rich or powerful, only", etc., clearly taught throughout The Bible and justifiably implied, here.
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Many Means All??
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it's just, "all kinds of men", meaning, "not the jews, only", & and "not the rich or powerful, only", etc., clearly taught throughout The Bible and justifiably implied, here.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Pro 9:1 Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:
Pro 9:2 She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table.
Pro 9:3 She hath sent forth her maidens: she crieth upon the highest places of the city,
Pro 9:4 Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,
Pro 9:5 Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine which I have mingled.
Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
Isa 55:2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
Act 17:19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
Act 17:20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.
Act 17:21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
Act 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
Etc. etc. etc.
We read two different Bibles and you and I.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
The truth is what the text says. You can't reinterpret the text because you're worried that "Oh but then that would mean that xyz"; that's not how this works.
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George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Only problem: it didn't say that.
You just reframe it in your mind that way to minimize the cognitive dissonance of Calvinism.
The system must be upheld by wresting scriptures.
We read the same Bible.
You think humans and their choices are sovereign over God and God's choice.
I think God's choice is Sovereign over all men and mankind does not have the capacity to make themselves children of the King. Instead, God must choose His children and then individually wrap and give his gracious gift of faith to those whom he makes alive in Christ. (Ephesians 2:1-10)
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Strawman (i.e. intentionally deceitful representation of the other's position) argument.
Strawman (i.e. intentionally deceitful representation of the other's position) argument.
Nope.
You are in denial and attempting to change the subject.
We read the same Bible. You are man-centered toward salvation. I am God-centered toward salvation. I read the Bible in full context. You pluck verses out of context to create a man-centered philosophy of salvation.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Don't forget to also point out that you are more humble and more spiritual.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Good thing that isn't what I am doing
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
But of course not, of course not.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Glad we agree.
Barry Johnson
Well-Known Member
It wouldn't matter if we had a verse that said he died for our sins ,and not for our sins only ,but the sins of the whole world, Calvinsm would still teach limited atonement . It is forced to because of there faulty understanding of salvation.
You are reading that in by your own bias.
In fact, my sin is a daily reminder that God's grace is amazing and His choice to save me and gift me faith is entirely unmerited.
I can point to most devout Muslims and show you people who are humanly more humble and spiritual than me. Most free-will believers are more humble and spiritual than me. That is the effect of a man-centered teaching.
I stand or fall by God's mercy and his mercy alone.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
One was the conditions and circumstances of Adam, in The Garden of Eden. When did we 'get back to The Garden"? At Woodstock? Individual souls, today, are NOT sinless, in a Period of Probation, as Adam was.
There is no Tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil, and one of Life, in order for these Individuals to 'choose' from'. Jesus didn't Die and Re-Create "The Garden of Eden", for everyone (all).
"All" people are in No State or Constitution of soul, to behave as if there is no PERSONAL QUILT of SIN that they have, which God HATES and Must Be Dealt With.
The Individual who imagines that they were in The Garden of Eden and just happen to have been magnificent enough to partake of The Tree of Life when they heard something about 'going to Heaven', do not have a Bible Testimony of a Salvation Experience.
They fight for false heresies, all day, but their "WILL", is in a situation where Jesus Christ Said,
"you WILL NOT come to Me that you might have Life".
Meanwhile, God The father Has a Will that they will also fight to their death:
"This is The Will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing but should raise it up at the last day." John 6:39
In "The Bible Story" cartoon books for children, by Author S. Maxwell, he spends the first 80 pages leading up to Adam and Eve "being good", or not.
Is that where people are that demand that Jesus Died for every Human when there is NO JESUS of The KIND in EXISTENCE?
Did they read a cartoon book?
Saved children have The Holy Spirit of God which Teaches them The Bible.
The Bible is different than a cartoon of the imagination of the flesh of men's hearts, which is only evil continually.
This second ACCUSED false Gospel, IS AUTOUNDINGLY MORE WICKED THAN WAS ASSUME. IT IS LEAVING PEOPLE LOST AND nothing can defend a non-existent Jesus that has simply been made up in the minds of sin-cursed carnal men and women.
Oral Roberts said a 700 foot tall Jesus was going to kill him if he didn't collect more money.
That Jesus doesn't exist, either. And doesn't Save.
Mankind is NOT in The Garden of Eden.
Mankind is in SIN.
To avoid the subject of sin is Eternally Fatal Heresy.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Gill (he knows The Lord and digs for the Spiritual Message, which Glorifies God)
for if through the offence of one many be dead;
as all Adam's posterity are, not only subject to a corporeal death,
but involved in a moral or spiritual, and liable to an eternal one,
through the imputation of guilt,
and the derivation of a corrupt nature from him: then
much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace
, which is by one man, Jesus Christ,
hath abounded unto many;
that is, the righteousness of Christ,
in which the grace of God is so illustrious,
is much more effectual to the giving of life
to all his seed and offspring;
not barely such a life as Adam had in innocence,
and which he lost by the offence,
but a spiritual and an eternal one;
which sheds the exuberance of this grace,
which secures and adjudges to a better life
than what was lost by the fall.
"... the persons made sinners are said to be "many",
in opposition to the "one-man",
by whose disobedience they became so,
and because there is an exception of one, even Jesus Christ;
and mean all the natural descendants of Adam, who are many,
and are so-called,
to answer to the subjects of justification in the next clause:
what they are made sinners by,
is "the disobedience of one man, Adam";
and by the first and single disobedience of his,
in eating the fruit of the forbidden tree,
by which they "were made sinners":
the meaning of which is not, that they became sufferers for it,
or subject to death on the account of it;
the word used will not bear such a sense,
but signifies men guilty of sin,
and sometimes the worst and chief of sinners;
besides, the apostle had expressed that before;
add to this,
that the sons of Adam could not be sufferers for his sin,
or subject to death on account of it,
if they were not made sinners by it,
or involved in the guilt or it:
and though the posterity of Adam are habitually sinners,
that is, derive corrupt nature from Adam,
yet this is not meant here;
but that they are become guilty,
through the imputation of his sin to them;
for it is by the disobedience of another
they are made sinners,
which must be by the imputation of that disobedience to them;
he sinned, and they sinned in him,
when they had as yet no actual existence;
which could be no other way, than by imputation,
as he was reckoned and accounted their head and representative, and they reckoned and accounted in him, and so have sinned in him.
This is also evident, from
the sentence of condemnation and death
passing upon all men for it; and even upon those,
who had not actually sinned;
to which may be added,
that Adam's posterity are made sinners through his disobedience,
in the same way as Christ's seed
are made righteous by his obedience,
which is by the imputation of it to them;
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous;
for if through the offence of one many be dead;
as all Adam's posterity are, not only subject to a corporeal death,
but involved in a moral or spiritual, and liable to an eternal one,
through the imputation of guilt,
and the derivation of a corrupt nature from him: then
much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace
, which is by one man, Jesus Christ,
hath abounded unto many;
that is, the righteousness of Christ,
in which the grace of God is so illustrious,
is much more effectual to the giving of life
to all his seed and offspring;
not barely such a life as Adam had in innocence,
and which he lost by the offence,
but a spiritual and an eternal one;
which sheds the exuberance of this grace,
which secures and adjudges to a better life
than what was lost by the fall.
"... the persons made sinners are said to be "many",
in opposition to the "one-man",
by whose disobedience they became so,
and because there is an exception of one, even Jesus Christ;
and mean all the natural descendants of Adam, who are many,
and are so-called,
to answer to the subjects of justification in the next clause:
what they are made sinners by,
is "the disobedience of one man, Adam";
and by the first and single disobedience of his,
in eating the fruit of the forbidden tree,
by which they "were made sinners":
the meaning of which is not, that they became sufferers for it,
or subject to death on the account of it;
the word used will not bear such a sense,
but signifies men guilty of sin,
and sometimes the worst and chief of sinners;
besides, the apostle had expressed that before;
add to this,
that the sons of Adam could not be sufferers for his sin,
or subject to death on account of it,
if they were not made sinners by it,
or involved in the guilt or it:
and though the posterity of Adam are habitually sinners,
that is, derive corrupt nature from Adam,
yet this is not meant here;
but that they are become guilty,
through the imputation of his sin to them;
for it is by the disobedience of another
they are made sinners,
which must be by the imputation of that disobedience to them;
he sinned, and they sinned in him,
when they had as yet no actual existence;
which could be no other way, than by imputation,
as he was reckoned and accounted their head and representative, and they reckoned and accounted in him, and so have sinned in him.
This is also evident, from
the sentence of condemnation and death
passing upon all men for it; and even upon those,
who had not actually sinned;
to which may be added,
that Adam's posterity are made sinners through his disobedience,
in the same way as Christ's seed
are made righteous by his obedience,
which is by the imputation of it to them;
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous;
Tsalagi
Member
How is escaping sin, avoiding judgment, and seeking eternal life from God not an expression of self-interest? Sorry, I see no difference at all.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
You should probably read what I wrote again, because that is not what I said.
ad finitum
Active Member
1. Slavery is being forced to do what one does not want to do. If the natural man is in bondage to sin, how does his desire to escape that bondage (by whatever means) constitute yet another sin -- the sin of selfishness?
2. Is there a selfless motive for seeking to not sin?
3. Would it be better for the natural man be content with his bondage, lest he commit more sin (selfishness) by seeking an escape?
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
The natural man is content with his bondage....
Tsalagi
Member
I carefully read and quoted what you wrote. The question was whether someone in bondage to sin can have a desire to escape. The answer of course is clearly yes. But you discounted this ability to desire freedom because such motivation is selfish, and then asked "But is he leaving that sin to seek after God and to follow Him?" How is seeking God and following Him not motivated by self-interest? Selfless interest in the glory of God rather than one's own deliverance sounds an awful lot like a human merit contribution to salvation.
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