millinial questions

[skypair]

Frankly, I have not had a real good week, as we have had to deal with a murder/suicide of a co-worker of my nephew's (She was also the daughter of my long-time vetenarian and friend, and she was murdered by her brother-in-law, who then killed himself, rather than be arrested.), and had two of our church members die yesterday - one a 32 year old man, who was also a classmate of my nephew, who was killed in an automobile wreck, going to work, yesterday A.M, and 4 hours later, one of our fairly new church members, and a long time neighbor and friend, as well, died of the long-term effects of liver damage from cirrhosis, from drinking too much beer for most of his adult life. I never saw him close to not being able to work, and he could do and did more work in any day, than I ever could, up to the last year, and he was almost 15 years older than I am. But the damage had been done long-term for him, just as my diabetes did long-term damage, for me. So I've been a 'mite busy' this week, as we are also working full days fencing, as well, here, and overhauling a tractor, too, of the evenings. Plus. I just had my 6 mo. 'CAT Scan' today, as well. I don't suspect any further problems, but it took most of a half-day, with a couple of other things I needed to do.

Gotta run, for now. I still have to fix two more things of food to take to these two families, as the dishwasher just stopped, so I can get the big pan to use to cook the spaghetti in.

Ed, God bless. I'll be praying with you!

And Ed --- 73% of late-onset, type B diabetes is reversible with weight loss (if that applies).

skypair

 

[EdSutton]

Ed, God bless. I'll be praying with you!

And Ed --- 73% of late-onset, type B diabetes is reversible with weight loss (if that applies).

skypair

It is "slowable", so to speak, but not "reversible", totally. My primary problem that gives me annoyance, is that of "diabetic periphreal neuropathy", which is basically not "reversible". Undoubtedly, I was a low-grade diabetic for many years, with no real symptoms, according to the doctors.

Howver, my overall 'diabetes' is now in very good shape, according to my doctor. No apparent pancreas, liver, or kidney damage. My last two A1C readings were 5.0 and 5.13, respectively. And the higher may have been a bit 'skewed' due to when the test was taken, so probably should have been 5.08-5.11, IMO. (Below 7.0 is deemed 'under control' and acceptable; below 6.0 is considered outstanding, from what I understand.)

And I am not on insulin, nor have I even taken any 'diabetes meds' for about a year. And my weight is apparently completely stable, although I would still like it to be a few pounds less.

But thanks for the heads up, anyway. It may help someone else, who may have this problem. For them, and any others with a tendency toward Type II, if it actually "looks good enough to eat", you might consider avoiding it, or at the worst, cutting the amount in half. :tear:

Your diabetes will thank you. :thumbs:

Ed

 

[Ed Edwards]

Yeah, but one of them has to be last, right?

absolutely wrong

At the yearly feast of trumpets as held in Synagogues throughout the world three trumpets are blown:

The First Trumpet
The Last Trumpet
The Great Shofar (trumpet)

Here are some last trumpets:

1. the last trumpet of the Church Age (time of the Gentiles)
2. the last trumpet of the Tribulation Period Judgement
3. the last trumpet of the book of Revelation (might be same as #2?)
4. over ten thousand LAST TRUMPETs a year at earth-wide Synagogues

Obviouslyl some folk don't know the first thing about 'first' or 'last'. But we love them anyway:

-

-

 

[Ed Edwards]

Well, I know you are a highly educated man and the scripture says I saw the "souls" OF THEM, that were beheaded.

If it were talking of entire man as you say, I would think it would of said. I saw the "souls" that were beheaded. I think a english major would agree, but I might be wrong.

BBob,

I'm just an engineer saved by grace NOT an English Major. I don't see a difference in the two statements.

Here is my writing on Revelation 20:4-5:
---------------------------

Five 'and's that seperate
the rapture2 from the resurrection2

(both the rapture2 and the resurreciton2 are part of
what Revelation 20:5 calls THE FIRST RESURRECTION.)


5. Revelation 20:4
Subtitle: God's Big Ampersand (&):


Rev 20:4-5 (KJV1611 Edition):
And I saw thrones,
and they sate vpon them,
and iudgement was giuen vnto them:
&
I saw the soules of them that were beheaded
for the witnesse of Iesus,
and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither* his image,
neither* had receiued his marke vpon their foreheads,
or* in their hands;
and they liued and reigned with Christ a thousand yeeres.
5 But the rest of the dead liued not
againe vntill the thousand yeeres were finished.
This is the first resurrection.

(see elsewhere about the ten 'and*'s in Rev 20:4. Or ask me to finish that writing)

*note, 'neither' is a joiner meaning 'and not'
*note, 'or' is translated from the same root word as all the 'and's

All ten of these joiners relate or disrelate in different ways
and different phrases (the OR related two places
where the mark might be received (1) forehead
or (2) hand - two different sets of body parts
(not two different names of sets of body parts).

You can quote me as saying:

"I, Ed Edwards, believe that the '&' in Revelation 20:4-5
relates different groups of people who were
resurrected1/raptured1 at different times."

The ones on the thrones were in rapture2.
The ones beheaded were in resurrection2.
----------------------------------------------------

resuurection1 is when Jesus raises groups of dead saints to life & gives them a new body

rapture1 is like a resurrection1 only with living saints

rapture2 is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
before the tribulation period

resurrection 2 is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
before the tribulation period

 

[Brother Bob]

I'm just an engineer saved by grace NOT an English Major. I don't see a difference in the two statements.

Here is my writing on Revelation 20:4-5:
---------------------------

Five 'and's that seperate
the rapture2 from the resurrection2

(both the rapture2 and the resurreciton2 are part of
what Revelation 20:5 calls THE FIRST RESURRECTION.)


5. Revelation 20:4
Subtitle: God's Big Ampersand (&):


Rev 20:4-5 (KJV1611 Edition):
And I saw thrones,
and they sate vpon them,
and iudgement was giuen vnto them:
&
I saw the soules of them that were beheaded
for the witnesse of Iesus,
and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither* his image,
neither* had receiued his marke vpon their foreheads,
or* in their hands;
and they liued and reigned with Christ a thousand yeeres.
5 But the rest of the dead liued not
againe vntill the thousand yeeres were finished.
This is the first resurrection.

(see elsewhere about the ten 'and*'s in Rev 20:4. Or ask me to finish that writing)

*note, 'neither' is a joiner meaning 'and not'
*note, 'or' is translated from the same root word as all the 'and's

All ten of these joiners relate or disrelate in different ways
and different phrases (the OR related two places
where the mark might be received (1) forehead
or (2) hand - two different sets of body parts
(not two different names of sets of body parts).

You can quote me as saying:

"I, Ed Edwards, believe that the '&' in Revelation 20:4-5
relates different groups of people who were
resurrected1/raptured1 at different times."

The ones on the thrones were in rapture2.
The ones beheaded were in resurrection2.
----------------------------------------------------

resuurection1 is when Jesus raises groups of dead saints to life & gives them a new body

rapture1 is like a resurrection1 only with living saints

rapture2 is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
before the tribulation period

resurrection 2 is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
before the tribulation period

Well, when it says "I saw the souls OF THEM, it is saying, I saw a part of a whole. There is a big difference than saying I saw the souls that were beheaded.

1Th 5:23¶And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Act 2:27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

resuurection1 is when Jesus raises groups of dead saints to life & gives them a new body

You mean like when Jesus was resurrected and many of the bodies of the saints arose? Do you mean like the following, it seems to be exact of what you call first resurrection??

Mat 27:52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Mat 27:53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


Resurrection 2 is when Jesus said the hour is coming when "all" in the grave shall come forth.

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

absolutely wrong

At the yearly feast of trumpets as held in Synagogues throughout the world three trumpets are blown:

The First Trumpet
The Last Trumpet
The Great Shofar (trumpet)

Here are some last trumpets:

1. the last trumpet of the Church Age (time of the Gentiles)
2. the last trumpet of the Tribulation Period Judgement
3. the last trumpet of the book of Revelation (might be same as #2?)
4. over ten thousand LAST TRUMPETs a year at earth-wide Synagogues

Obviouslyl some folk don't know the first thing about 'first' or 'last'. But we love them anyway:

-

-

There is a last trump for the resurrection of the dead.

1Cr 15:52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (notice we will meet the Lord in the air and shall be with Him forever, in other words, "I shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever")

That is the one I was talking about.

BBob,

 

[skypair]

It is "slowable", so to speak, but not "reversible", totally. My primary problem that gives me annoyance, is that of "diabetic periphreal neuropathy", which is basically not "reversible". Undoubtedly, I was a low-grade diabetic for many years, with no real symptoms, according to the doctors.

Howver, my overall 'diabetes' is now in very good shape, according to my doctor. No apparent pancreas, liver, or kidney damage. My last two A1C readings were 5.0 and 5.13, respectively. And the higher may have been a bit 'skewed' due to when the test was taken, so probably should have been 5.08-5.11, IMO. (Below 7.0 is deemed 'under control' and acceptable; below 6.0 is considered outstanding, from what I understand.)

And I am not on insulin, nor have I even taken any 'diabetes meds' for about a year. And my weight is apparently completely stable, although I would still like it to be a few pounds less.

But thanks for the heads up, anyway. It may help someone else, who may have this problem. For them, and any others with a tendency toward Type II, if it actually "looks good enough to eat", you might consider avoiding it, or at the worst, cutting the amount in half. :tear:

Your diabetes will thank you. :thumbs:

Ed

Wonderful Ed! My builder's wife is considering lapband surgery to try and redeem herself from Type II diabetes and other problems obesity can cause. I have certainly led a blessed and healthy life by comparisom with my peers. Thank you, Lord!

skypair

 

[skypair]

EdEdwards ... this is for you too.

Well, when it says "I saw the souls OF THEM, it is saying, I saw a part of a whole. There is a big difference than saying I saw the souls that were beheaded.

It says "souls" here because it is at the thrones that these souls who came back with Christ in the 2nd coming will receive their bodies and then teir rewards. IOW, I take the literal and also see that they will not die again (as will those at the GWT who receive bodies at the GWT and then die again physically in the lake of fire.

skypair

 

[Ed Edwards]

:

There is a last trump for the resurrection of the dead.

1Cr 15:52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(notice we will meet the Lord in the air and shall be with Him forever, in other words, "I shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever")

That is the one I was talking about.

Ah, that is what I called a Resurrection1 at the Rapture2 Event.

All three verses talk about 'we' (Paul & other real Christians) or 'dead in Christ' (real Christians). This is the Rapture2 Event which is pretrib. So this last trump is the last trump of the Church Age (also called Time of the Gentiles). Note First Thessalonians doesn't speak of the 'last trumpet', but it makes sense & leads to no contradicition if one assumes that the trumpet in the 1 Thess verses is the last trumpet of the Church Age.

 

[Ed Edwards]

resurrection1 is when Jesus raises groups of dead saints to life & gives them a new body

You mean like when Jesus was resurrected and many of the bodies of the saints arose? Do you mean like the following, it seems to be exact of what you call first resurrection??

Mat 27:52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Mat 27:53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

This is one example of a resurrection1 (the Bible calls it a 'resurrection', along with other things called 'resurrection')

Note this definition of resurrection1 precludes a resurrection of the unjust.

Resurrection3 = the bringing back to life of the unjust (not 'in Christ')

Brother Bob: //Resurrection 2 is when Jesus said the hour is coming when "all" in the grave shall come forth.//

No. see 'Resurrection3' above. It is 1,000 years (physcial or spiritual 1K) between the the last resurrection1 in the Resurrection2 Event and the Resurrection3 Event (see Revelation 20).

Ed Edwards: // resurrection 2 is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
before the tribulation period//

my Bad: should be:
resurrection 2 is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1 after the tribulation period

 

[skypair]

So this last trump is the last trump of the Church Age (also called Time of the Gentiles).

Arno Froese explains that the "last trumpet" voice is the opposite of the first at Sinai (Heb 12:19). It is inferred, not stated in Heb 12:22. However, Paul takes a "trip" to NJ/3rd heaven when he is "called" by it just as would be the case at the rapture.

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

resurrection1 is when Jesus raises groups of dead saints to life & gives them a new body


This is one example of a resurrection1 (the Bible calls it a 'resurrection', along with other things called 'resurrection')

Note this definition of resurrection1 precludes a resurrection of the unjust.

Resurrection3 = the bringing back to life of the unjust (not 'in Christ')

Brother Bob: //Resurrection 2 is when Jesus said the hour is coming when "all" in the grave shall come forth.//

No. see 'Resurrection3' above. It is 1,000 years (physcial or spiritual 1K) between the the last resurrection1 in the Resurrection2 Event and the Resurrection3 Event (see Revelation 20).

Ed Edwards: // resurrection 2 is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
before the tribulation period//

my Bad: should be:
resurrection 2 is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1 after the tribulation period

I disagree, The only resurrection before the Trib is when Jesus arose and the saints arose with him. The rapture is after the, trib of which no flesh would be saved except for the elect's sake.

I think you confuse the Trib with the Wrath and John the Baptist plainly says the church will flee from the wrath of God.

This is the Trib, which the church will suffer:

Matt:
29: Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
36: But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37: But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38: For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39: And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40: Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41: Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42: Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43: But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44: Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.



Luke:
20: And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21: Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22: For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23: But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24: And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25: And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26: Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27: And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28: And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

This is the wrath of God:

Rev: 6
11: And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
12: And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13: And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14: And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15: And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16: And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


This is where the church will be:

Rev: 7

13: And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14: And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15: Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16: They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17: For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

This is what will begin to happen to those left behind:

Rev 8:



1: And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2: And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
3: And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4: And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5: And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
6: And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
7: The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
8: And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9: And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
10: And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
11: And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
12: And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
13: And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Rev 9:

Rev 10:

Rev 11:

Rev 16: Is speaking of the same time period 8, 9, 10, 11

Rev continues to tell of things that happen during the wrath of God, it also tells of things that happened in the past and how Heaven will be.

The saved will be in the Tribulations but will not be in the wrath of God which is to come, after the resurrection of the just and the unjust.

Jhn 5:28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Jhn 5:29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Mat 3:7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

Ed Edwards:
resuurection1 is when Jesus raises groups of dead saints to life & gives them a new body

This is an exact description of Matt:

Mat 27:52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Mat 27:53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

It also is in an accordance with "blessed and Holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection, for on such the second death hath no power".

In other words "blessed and Holy is he that hath a part in Christ, for on such the second death hath no power".

rapture1 is like a resurrection1 only with living saints

rapture2 is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
before the tribulation period

resurrection 2 is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
before the tribulation period
__________________

Huh!!!!!!!!

BBob,

 

[Ed Edwards]

//I think you confuse the Trib with the Wrath and John the Baptist plainly says the church will flee from the wrath of God.//

I respectfully disagree. I do equate the Tribulation Periods with the Wrath of God (the Tribulation Periods are part but not all of the Wrath of God).

In fact, here is the declination of 'Wrath of God'

Wrath of God - first half of the 7-year-tribulatin Period
Wrather of God - second half of the 7-year-tribulation Period (AKA: Great Tribulation)
Wrathiest of God - eternal damnation along with the unholy Trinity {Satan, Beast from the Sea (Antichrist), Beast from the Land (False Prophet) }

Consider Matthew 24:30 (unknown text, quoted above):
30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

I am 'in Christ' I am of one of the tribes of earth. I will NOT morn when Jesus Comes again - I will rejoice to see Him coming. This verse is talking about the post-tribualtion-period arrival of Jesus to whip up on the Antichrist and his lackies. I'll be coming with Him. The sign mentioned here is the TRIBULATION PERIOD itself.

Consider Matthew 24:36 (unknown text, quoted above)
36: But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

here day = the appropriate time
here hour = appropriate time
It is talking about a time unknown before - a signless time. It is the end of the Church Age (AKA: the last days /begun at Pentacost AD33 and ends at a signless pre-tribualtion raputure2 /rapture1 following a resurrection1/). Once the date of the pre-tribulation rapture2 is known (i don't know it yet), then the post-tribulation resurrection2 will happen 1260 dayes times 2 halves later /7 years, one prophetic day, the 70th 'week' of Daniel 9/ . The post-tribulation resurrection 2 (a rapture1 following on the heels of a resurrection2).

Sorry Brother Brother Bob, but you repeated time segments in Revelation is a bankrupt idea that I have debated for over 30 years. The Earthquake of Revelation Chapter 16 is probably 1,000 times worse than the Earthquake of Revelation Chapter 6. I'll try to compare them next post.

 

[Ed Edwards]

...

Huh!!!!!!!!

BBob,

I saw that coming from a mile off (well, since page 18).

I'm trying to avoid a logical fallacy of ambiguity called 'Equivocation' - that is a logical error where illogical conclusions happen:
1. because the person using the Equivocation can not understand
2. because the person using the Equivocation will not understand
3. because the person using the Equivocation understands but uses Equivocation anyway

Therefore I'm very carefully defining the terms that I use. But you say you don't understand? Look these three choices over (they may NOT be the only choices, but they seem common enough to me):

1. is ignorance /not knowing/
2. is deceitful
3. is a lie

In any case, the logical fallacy of ambiguity is NOT RIGHT

 

[Ed Edwards]

Two Earthquakes compared:

Revelation 6:12-17 (forgot to list version):
I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Oops, this isn't parallel to the Second Advent of Jesus event
(Matthew 24:29-30) nor the pretribualtion rapture (Matthew 24:31).
It describes something that STARTS the Tribulation Period
(as seen on Earth).

Compare this with the earthquake at the end of the Tribulation Period:

Rev 16:17-21 (KJV1611 Edition):

And the seuenth Angel powred out his viall into the ayre, and there came a great voyce out of the Temple of heauen, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices and thunders, and lightnings: and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were vpon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great Citie was diuided into three parts, and the Cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to giue vnto her the cup of the wine of the fiercenesse of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And euery yland fled away, and the mountaines were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell vpon men a great haile out of heauen, euery stone about the weight of a talent, and men blasphemed God, because of the plague of the hayle: for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

In Rev 6 every "mountain ... was moved out of its place";
but in Rev 16 "the mountaines were not found".

In Rev 6 every "island was moved out of its place";
but in Rev 16 "euery yland fled away".

While the Revelation 6 earthquake is like a magniture 7.0 earthquake
one million places on earth at the same time
(force 13.0) the Revelation 16 earthquake is at least
1,000 times worse (force 16.0).

The wrath of the Lamb begins in Revelation 6 at the beginning of
the Tribulation period: the wrath of God is described in Revelation
16-18 near the end of the Tribulation period. The Living Church of the Living Christ
gathered before that earthquake will NOT suffer through
the 'wrath of the Lamb' NOR the 'wrath of God'.

Tribulation Period = (Wrath) the light 'wrath of God' on sinners
Great Tribualtion Period = (Wrathier) the heavy 'wrath of God' on sinners
Eternal Hell Fire = (Wrathiest) 'wrath of God' on sinners

No Wrath of God will ever be put on His Children - Never, never ever.

 

[Brother Bob]

//I think you confuse the Trib with the Wrath and John the Baptist plainly says the church will flee from the wrath of God.//

I respectfully disagree. I do equate the Tribulation Periods with the Wrath of God (the Tribulation Periods are part but not all of the Wrath of God).

In fact, here is the declination of 'Wrath of God'

Wrath of God - first half of the 7-year-tribulatin Period
Wrather of God - second half of the 7-year-tribulation Period (AKA: Great Tribulation)
Wrathiest of God - eternal damnation along with the unholy Trinity {Satan, Beast from the Sea (Antichrist), Beast from the Land (False Prophet) }

Consider Matthew 24:30 (unknown text, quoted above):
30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

I am 'in Christ' I am of one of the tribes of earth. I will NOT morn when Jesus Comes again - I will rejoice to see Him coming. This verse is talking about the post-tribualtion-period arrival of Jesus to whip up on the Antichrist and his lackies. I'll be coming with Him. The sign mentioned here is the TRIBULATION PERIOD itself.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.

Mat 24:26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not.

This plainly says He will appear after the Tribulations.


Mat 24:29 ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 24:46Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

What you say, just does not hold up. It says blessed is that servant who his Lord when He cometh shall find so doing.

Sounds to me as if the servants will still be here. Only thing is we will be caught up in the air the very first thing, how could we mourn when we will not see what is taking place on this earth.

Do you have any scripture where you will be coming with the Lord to pass judgement upon the earth???? I read where he will have angels with Him, but haven't seen where He will have the believers.


Just keep reading to get all the (context)




Consider Matthew 24:36 (unknown text, quoted above)
36: But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Well, we agree that we don't know the time.


here day = the appropriate time
here hour = appropriate time
It is talking about a time unknown before - a signless time. It is the end of the Church Age (AKA: the last days /begun at Pentacost AD33 and ends at a signless pre-tribualtion raputure2 /rapture1 following a resurrection1/). Once the date of the pre-tribulation rapture2 is known (i don't know it yet), then the post-tribulation resurrection2 will happen 1260 dayes times 2 halves later /7 years, one prophetic day, the 70th 'week' of Daniel 9/ . The post-tribulation resurrection 2 (a rapture1 following on the heels of a resurrection2).

Kinda like the thousand year reign????

Sorry Brother Brother Bob, but you repeated time segments in Revelation is a bankrupt idea that I have debated for over 30 years. The Earthquake of Revelation Chapter 16 is probably 1,000 times worse than the Earthquake of Revelation Chapter 6. I'll try to compare them next post.

Rev 6:
12: And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13: And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14: And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.


Rev 16:
18: And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19: And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20: And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21: And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.


So, there are two earthquakes in the wrath of God, what does that prove???

BBob,

 

[Brother Bob]

Two Earthquakes compared:

Revelation 6:12-17 (forgot to list version):
I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Oops, this isn't parallel to the Second Advent of Jesus event
(Matthew 24:29-30) nor the pretribualtion rapture (Matthew 24:31).
It describes something that STARTS the Tribulation Period
(as seen on Earth).

Compare this with the earthquake at the end of the Tribulation Period:

Rev 16:17-21 (KJV1611 Edition):

And the seuenth Angel powred out his viall into the ayre, and there came a great voyce out of the Temple of heauen, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices and thunders, and lightnings: and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were vpon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great Citie was diuided into three parts, and the Cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to giue vnto her the cup of the wine of the fiercenesse of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And euery yland fled away, and the mountaines were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell vpon men a great haile out of heauen, euery stone about the weight of a talent, and men blasphemed God, because of the plague of the hayle: for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

In Rev 6 every "mountain ... was moved out of its place";
but in Rev 16 "the mountaines were not found".

In Rev 6 every "island was moved out of its place";
but in Rev 16 "euery yland fled away".

While the Revelation 6 earthquake is like a magniture 7.0 earthquake
one million places on earth at the same time
(force 13.0) the Revelation 16 earthquake is at least
1,000 times worse (force 16.0).

The wrath of the Lamb begins in Revelation 6 at the beginning of
the Tribulation period: the wrath of God is described in Revelation
16-18 near the end of the Tribulation period. The Living Church of the Living Christ
gathered before that earthquake will NOT suffer through
the 'wrath of the Lamb' NOR the 'wrath of God'.

Tribulation Period = (Wrath) the light 'wrath of God' on sinners
Great Tribualtion Period = (Wrathier) the heavy 'wrath of God' on sinners
Eternal Hell Fire = (Wrathiest) 'wrath of God' on sinners

No Wrath of God will ever be put on His Children - Never, never ever.

Matt 24:
21: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22: And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23: Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25: Behold, I have told you before.
26: Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27: For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28: For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29: Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31: And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I am of the Heavenly tribe, a part of the Kingdom, why should I mourn??? I will be rejoicing, but woe unto the inhabiters of the earth.

You still have it wrong. The tribulations and the wrath of God, are two different things entirely.

Tribulations at end times is what men bring upon themselves.


BBob

 

[Brother Bob]

I saw that coming from a mile off (well, since page 18).

I'm trying to avoid a logical fallacy of ambiguity called 'Equivocation' - that is a logical error where illogical conclusions happen:
1. because the person using the Equivocation can not understand
2. because the person using the Equivocation will not understand
3. because the person using the Equivocation understands but uses Equivocation anyway

Therefore I'm very carefully defining the terms that I use. But you say you don't understand? Look these three choices over (they may NOT be the only choices, but they seem common enough to me):

1. is ignorance /not knowing/
2. is deceitful
3. is a lie

In any case, the logical fallacy of ambiguity is NOT RIGHT

A logical fallacy is a collapse in logic often used in debate to mislead or distract people from the real issue.

rapture1 is like a resurrection1 only with living saints

rapture2 is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
before the tribulation period

resurrection 2 is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
before the tribulation period
__________________

Huh!!!!!!!!


4. Or what stated just plain don’t make sense!!

How about that reason??

How could a resurrection 2 BE a resurrection 1 ????

BBob,
,

 

[Ed Edwards]

Tribulation Period = (Wrath) the light 'wrath of God' on sinners
Great Tribualtion Period = (Wrathier) the heavy 'wrath of God' on sinners
Eternal Hell Fire = (Wrathiest) 'wrath of God' on sinners

No Wrath of God will ever be put on His Children - Never, never ever.

Here is the Great Tribulattion Period:

Rev 14:9-10 (KJV1611 Edition):
And the third Angel followed them, saying with a lowd voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receiue his marke in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drinke of the wine of the wrath of God, which is powred out without mixture into the cup of his indignation, and hee shall be tormented with fire and brimstone, in the presence of the holy Angels, and in the presence of the Lambe:

Sorry, sure sounds to me like thinks are getting worse