Obama Endorses Mosque Project Near Ground Zero Site

[rbell]

Not sure I understand the nature of CTB's protest.

Many of us on here--myself included--have stated, over and over, that these folks havethe right to build where they are desiring to...but that it is insensitive, and in bad form to do so--especially to do so and have an opening on Sept. 11.

And...we've the right to ree speech, and protest said project.

Why is that so difficult for Crabby to understand?

And is it more about making political points that being intellectually honest?

 

[targus]

Why is that so difficult for Crabby to understand?

And is it more about making political points that being intellectually honest?

Yes - it is.

That plus Crabby considers himself to be the moral superior of just about everyone else on the board.

 

[Alcott]

This has nothing to do with the fire department responding to a fire at a church building or the appropriate requirement for minimum building codes.

If government building inspectors come to inspect a church, or a fire department responds to a call at a church, then which are the church and the government entities?-- separate or together?

 

[Crabtownboy]

We are guaranteed the right to free speech.

We are guaranteed the right to speak out against this mosque being built at that particular location.

We are within our legal rights to protest this mosque whether you or they like it or not.

Do you not know that we are guaranteed freedom of speech?

Why are you so anti-free speech?

I will defend your right to speak. Will you defend mine? The Moslems?

I simply stated that some who oppose the Mosque do not seem to want any rights given to anyone who does not agree with them.

I never said you, nor anyone else did not have any freedom of speech. You must be feeling guilty to have read that into my comment. What I was doing was reminding everyone that everyone who is a citizen has these rights. Whether we agree with them or not is another matter.

 

[targus]

I will defend your right to speak. Will you defend mine? The Moslems?

You say this - but then are critical and judgemental about those who exercise there free speech concerning this proposed mosque.

I simply stated that some who oppose the Mosque do not seem to want any rights given to anyone who does not agree with them.

And there it is.

Can you go back through this thread and cite an example of anyone suggesting that rights should be denied of anyone who disagrees with the poster?

I never said you, nor anyone else did not have any freedom of speech. You must be feeling guilty to have read that into my comment. What I was doing was reminding everyone that everyone who is a citizen has these rights. Whether we agree with them or not is another matter.

As no one said anyone else should be denied their rights just be cause they disagree.

Sounds as though you are the one who is feeling guilty here.

Why do you want to deny others their rights? Because they disagree with you?

Is that why you want to deny others the right of free speech?

 

[Bro. Curtis]

http://www.greekboston.com/wordpress/2010/08/greek-orthodox-church-or-mosque-ground-zero/


Double tounged workers of iniquity stick up for the mosque and remain silent about this.

Shame on them.

Didn't C.T.Boy and his chihuahua R.S. want to take Limbaugh off the air ?

Freedom of speech for me, none for thee....

Hypocrites.

 

[rbell]

I will defend your right to speak. Will you defend mine? The Moslems?

I simply stated that some who oppose the Mosque do not seem to want any rights given to anyone who does not agree with them.

I never said you, nor anyone else did not have any freedom of speech. You must be feeling guilty to have read that into my comment. What I was doing was reminding everyone that everyone who is a citizen has these rights. Whether we agree with them or not is another matter.

More intellectual dishonesty.

What we've been saying is, though the muslims have the right to build there...it is bad form to do so.

Are you being purposely obtuse? Or trying to impress us with your "tolerance?"

What is so difficult to understand about the position enumerated here?

 

[HankD]

Because of the probable long range emotional reactions of the opposing "multi-cultural" sides, the issue of the mosque probably comes under the constitutional responsibility of the government to insure domestic Tranquility which in special cases can supercede individual rights and perhaps even the rights of a religious special interest group.

But who in authority will step to the plate? IMO, the present administration needs to rethink - What are the social consequences in terms of the domestic Tranquility in allowing this site to be built?

HankD

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Because of the probable long range emotional reactions of the opposing "multi-cultural" sides, the issue of the mosque probably comes under the constitutional responsibility of the government to insure domestic Tranquility which in special cases can supercede individual rights and perhaps even the rights of a religious special interest group.

But who in authority will step to the plate? IMO, the present administration needs to rethink - What are the social consequences in terms of the domestic Tranquility in allowing this site to be built?

HankD

Wow - so does this mean the threat of mob violence should dictate limitations on personal liberty?

 

[HankD]

Wow - so does this mean the threat of mob violence should dictate limitations on personal liberty?

Yes.

HankD

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Yes.

HankD

Interesting concept for another thread.

 

[webdog]

Ken, here is a link from CNN that shows a map of the surrounding areas that were affected by the terrorist act of 9-11.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/damage.map.html

As you can see, there was structural damage to buildings far from ground-zero. If you were to ask the people who own these buildings or who were at work in those buildings that day if their building is/was where "it happened", you might not get a whole-hearted "yes", but you aren't going to get a whole-hearted "no" either.

The mosque in question is only two and a half blocks away from ground zero. It's definitely in the circle of surrounding areas that also received damage. And it's absolutely in the circle of surrounding areas that all Amercans perceive as where "it happened".



Yes, everyone here at the Baptist Board knows that there is nothing that we or anyone can do to stop this from happening. Don't think us to be idiots. We know that there will be a Muslim community center and mosque built exactly where they want it to be built.

You are all about supporting these people's property rights.

Well, do not deny the people here the right to oppose the selection of the site because we feel that it is improper, insensitive, carelessly thought out, and for propaganda's sake only.

To keep silent, wring our hands, and to just gutlessly take it where it hurts because we know that we can't infringe on anyone's "property rights" is absurd.

Making this issue about property rights is like making rape victim's case about the predator's sexual needs. It's like taking the Titanic tragedy and making all about the free speech rights of the young man who neglected to wire for help quickly enough.

For the Muslims in the American and all around the world who supported what happened on 9-11, they will be having victory celebrations and you know it. This is purely for propaganda only.

And I will not step down from my opinion about this merely because those Muslims have "property rights".

Yes, they have property rights. But do you REALLY believe that those property right supercede the bigger picture here?

Scarlett nailed it. Ironic the liberals here failed to engage this post...

 

[HankD]

Interesting concept for another thread.

It's relevant to the mosque situation.

The very reason these words ("insure domestic tranquility") were included in the Preamble to the Constitution was to contain any domestic uprisings and/or rebellions. See "Shay's Rebellion".

There is a definite possibility of physical conflict.

But this is what radical islamic leadership considers a best case scenario, a conflict which we (Christians) start.


HankD

 

[Bob Alkire]

http://www.resistnet.com/group/thecornerstoneofthenation/forum/topics/this-is-nyc-on-madison


This is what adds to the problem. We(Christians) can't even do this where I live , stop and pray in groups.

About 20 years ago I was with a group that was going to have a prayer in NYC, we were told we couldn't. We could get a permit at a park, maybe.

When any group feels they aren't being treated equal, they get upset. When it is a group who has been here for years and the other hasn't adds to the problem.

Here is the rest of the story.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/changingface.asp

 

[rbell]

Ironic the liberals here failed to engage this post...

They're too busy showing off their "enlightened-ness..."

 

[rbell]

More on the Imam who will oversee this thing-Ken-won't-call-a-Mosque-even-though-it-is:

Here's his book title in English:

"What's Right With Islam is What's Right With America"

But here is the book title in Arabic:

"A Call For The Spread of Islam From the World Trade Center Rubble"
​

He has produced this book with the coopertion of some really shady organizations:

Now it emerges that a “special, non-commercial edition” of this book was later produced, with Feisal’s cooperation, by two American tentacles of the Muslim Brotherhood: the Islamic Society of North America and the International Institute of Islamic Thought.

Both ISNA and IIIT have been up to their necks in the promotion of Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood’s ruthless Palestinian branch, which is pledged by charter to the destruction of Israel. In fact, both ISNA and IIIT were cited by the Justice Department as unindicted co-conspirators in a crucial terrorism-financing case involving the channeling of tens of millions of dollars to Hamas through an outfit called the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development. For the last 15 years, Hamas has been a designated terrorist organization under U.S. law.

SOURCE
MORE

Now...remind me again of how "unenlightened" I am...

Of course this is a thumb in the eyes of America. Why else do these Islamists remain silent? Of course, when you've got the President running interference for you (at least today he is...we'll have to see how far he backpedals...), why should you speak up?​

 

[Baptist Believer]

Scarlett nailed it.

Surprisingly, I think Scarlett missed the mark this time. I usually agree with her about 95% of the time and have enormous respect for her and her opinions.

Ironic the liberals here failed to engage this post...

Well I'm not a liberal, but I'll take a shot at engaging her opinions.

Ken, here is a link from CNN that shows a map of the surrounding areas that were affected by the terrorist act of 9-11.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/damage.map.html

As you can see, there was structural damage to buildings far from ground-zero. If you were to ask the people who own these buildings or who were at work in those buildings that day if their building is/was where "it happened", you might not get a whole-hearted "yes", but you aren't going to get a whole-hearted "no" either.

The mosque in question is only two and a half blocks away from ground zero. It's definitely in the circle of surrounding areas that also received damage. And it's absolutely in the circle of surrounding areas that all Amercans perceive as where "it happened".

Quite true.

To be even more precise, the building they intend to remove is structurally unsound because a portion of the landing gear and fuselage of American 175 (the plane that many people saw hit the second tower on live television) damaged the building.

However, the area where they want to build the proposed community center is part of a diverse living urban area with fast food, strip clubs, off-track gambling houses, and various businesses. It is not some designated memorial site like in downtown Oklahoma City.

Yes, everyone here at the Baptist Board knows that there is nothing that we or anyone can do to stop this from happening. Don't think us to be idiots. We know that there will be a Muslim community center and mosque built exactly where they want it to be built.

I don't think anyone who opposes your viewpoint assumes that you (or anyone else) is an idiot.

You are all about supporting these people's property rights.

Well, do not deny the people here the right to oppose the selection of the site because we feel that it is improper, insensitive, carelessly thought out, and for propaganda's sake only.

I've been carefully listening to all of the pundits and posters on various threads and I'm haven't been convinced. Since no one has brought forth any convincing evidence that these specific Muslims were connected to the 9/11 attacks or even approved of the attacks, I fail to see why it is "insensitive." If some Baptist wingnut committed an atrocity, don't you think Baptists would want to establish a presence in the community to try to redeem the situation and be a witness to the world that we are not all nutcases? I suspect that's what the Muslims might be doing. For them to avoid the area (especially at this point) would likely be perceived as admitting guilt or a connection to the 9/11 attacks.

To keep silent, wring our hands, and to just gutlessly take it where it hurts because we know that we can't infringe on anyone's "property rights" is absurd.

I don't think there's any reason to "wring out hands" or to be "gutless." As someone who is holding a very unpopular position at this time, it takes a lot of nerve to take a stand for what I believe is right.

And that's the essence of the issue. What is the right thing to do in this case? What would Jesus expect us to do?

Making this issue about property rights is like making rape victim's case about the predator's sexual needs.

Your analogy only holds if those who want this mosque are united with Al-Qaeda, the people who attacked our nation.

It's like taking the Titanic tragedy and making all about the free speech rights of the young man who neglected to wire for help quickly enough.

I don't understand the analogy, so I can't comment on it.

For the Muslims in the American and all around the world who supported what happened on 9-11, they will be having victory celebrations and you know it.

We can't choose what is fundamentally right and wrong based on how evil people might want to react to it. Otherwise we are letting evil people set our agenda.

This is purely for propaganda only.

By this statement, you are alleging that these specific Muslims in New York are part of the previously referenced "Muslims in the American and all around the world who supported what happened on 9-11."

Do you have any evidence of their support?

 

[Baptist Believer]

Fact Check regarding the controversy:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100818/ap_on_go_ot/us_mosque_fact_check

 

[Scarlett O.]

We can't choose what is fundamentally right and wrong based on how evil people might want to react to it. Otherwise we are letting evil people set our agenda.

I really don't think that I've allowed anyone's potential reaction to shape my opinion. I am just voicing what will happen.

I've made my decision that this is a fundamentally wrong move based on the insensitivity of the issue.


Why is building the Muslim community center and mosque two and one half blocks from ground zero fundamentally right? I have yet to have anyone tell me this.

By this statement, you are alleging that these specific Muslims in New York are part of the previously referenced "Muslims in the American and all around the world who supported what happened on 9-11."

Do you have any evidence of their support?

I said, "For the Muslims in the America(s) and all around the world who supported what happened on 9-11, they will be having victory celebrations and you know it."

I don't know who did and who didn't. I wasn't implying that the Cordoba group were terrorist supporters.

I've been carefully listening to all of the pundits and posters on various threads and I'm haven't been convinced. Since no one has brought forth any convincing evidence that these specific Muslims were connected to the 9/11 attacks or even approved of the attacks, I fail to see why it is "insensitive."

I don't know what to say. I can't help you here if you can't see it. I do NOT care if these particular Muslims were connected with the 9-11 attacks or not. I don't think that they were. This isn't the issue.

It's really been a shock to me reading this thread and I am a crusty old broad that pretty much ain't shockable.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[Scarlett O.]

If some Baptist wingnut committed an atrocity, don't you think Baptists would want to establish a presence in the community to try to redeem the situation and be a witness to the world that we are not all nutcases? I suspect that's what the Muslims might be doing. For them to avoid the area (especially at this point) would likely be perceived as admitting guilt or a connection to the 9/11 attacks.

You suspect that the Muslims in building this community center and mosque are wanting to redeem the tragedy of 9-11-01?

Why did they wait nine years?

How is this particular mosque going to change anything or heal anyone any differently than the OTHER mosque in the city? Why haven't they been using the OTHER mosques in New York City to bring about redemption and a witness?

Why would finding another site be admission of anything?