On the criterion of "election"

[loDebar]

If salvation is dependent solely upon what we do (aka believe) then that means it is a work. BUT if that faith is given to us because we were elected beforehand, it is no longer works based. I didn't say there was a verse that defines faith as a work. But your brand of salvation makes faith a work. Not to mention it isn't biblical.

We do not believe with our minds but our hearts, It is not a mental process. not work

Rom 10:9

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved

 

[Reformed1689]

We do not believe with our minds but our hearts, It is not a mental process. not work

Rom 10:9

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved

You can twist it all you want. But if our election is dependent on our faith first then it is salvation by works.

 

[Reformed]

Well a bunch of Calvinists would disagree with your assessment of my articulation, haha, read the thread.

Now:

Every reference to predestination in the sciptures is a reference to God having predestinated for whoever would believe on his Son, to end up in certain conditions, as follows:

Rom_8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [...] Rom_8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
That's predestination to have a physical body after the physical body of Christ at the resurrection - not salvation. For see:
Eph_1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Again, that's the adoption of the new body at the resurrection. (Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. )

Eph_1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph _1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

All Christians will end up being to the praise of his glory - not a question of salvation there. that's already settled.

George, I am really not concerned whether or not other Calvinists agree with me. I have to be obedient to scripture even if that puts me at odds with those on "my side".

Respectfully, you misinterpret the passages you posted. You have bought into the foreseen faith view lock, stock, and barrel. The truth is that everyone who is predestined by the Father to eternal life will believe. The same verses you use to defend the foreseen faith view I use to defend predestination/election by the Father from eternity past. If God only elects those who believe, then God is beholding to His creation. The supposed free agency of man trumps the sovereignty of God. If you want me to be bluntly honest, you knew this before you started your last two threads. You started these threads under the guise of asking questions, but you already had an agenda.

 

[kyredneck]

I'm questioning yours, brother, not God's. Small distinction.

No. I've posted nothing but scripture which you've pitifully failed to refute WITH scripture. You're just another dime a dozen whining complaining freewiller that refuses to accept God's sovereignty in the matter. You keep trying to steer the debate away from plain scripture to questioning the mind of God.

Paul summed up 'you people' perfectly, this is the entire gist of your complaints against God:

"Why doth He still find fault?"

...and the simple comeback to that is:

"Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?"

Carry on with your pitiful whining and complaining, you don't even equate to a gnat on an elephant's back.

I'm done. Have the last HUMANISTIC word if that's what satisfies you.

George Antonios is GREAT! It is of George Antonios that George Antonios is in Christ Jesus!

Not.

 

[loDebar]

You can twist it all you want. But if our election is dependent on our faith first then it is salvation by works.

Nope and you have had this explained before.

God's pardon of salvation is for all sinners.If you are implying there are some humans who do not have a soul, and do not understand spiritual things, I might agree with you

 

[Revmitchell]

You can twist it all you want. But if our election is dependent on our faith first then it is salvation by works.

Election is not dependent on our faith. It is only dependent on the work of Christ. Our faith is a response to that work and that is not a work.

When someone gives you a gift, reaching out and receiving the gift is not also part of giving that gift to yourself.

 

[Marooncat79]

You are so off the mark here it is incredible

 

[Reformed1689]

God's pardon of salvation is for all sinners.

This is factually not true. If God's pardon was for all sinners then all would be pardoned. When someone is pardoned they do not have to accept that pardon, it is applied to them whether they want it or not.

 

[Particular]

Election is not dependent on our faith. It is only dependent on the work of Christ. Our faith is a response to that work and that is not a work.

When someone gives you a gift, reaching out and receiving the gift is not also part of giving that gift to yourself.

Is faith the reaching out for the gift or is faith the gift?
When you are receiving gifts at a holiday, is it faith that opens the gift? If so, what is the gift?
Or, is faith the gift, but you determine if you are going to open it and use what you have been graciously given?

 

[Reformed1689]

Is faith the reaching out for the gift or is faith the gift?
When you are receiving gifts at a holiday, is it faith that opens the gift? If so, what is the gift?
Or, is faith the gift, but you determine if you are going to open it and use what you have been graciously given?

Paul tells us in Ephesians 2:8-10 that faith is the gift.

 

[Revmitchell]

Salvation is the gift not faith.

Is faith the reaching out for the gift or is faith the gift?
When you are receiving gifts at a holiday, is it faith that opens the gift? If so, what is the gift?
Or, is faith the gift, but you determine if you are going to open it and use what you have been graciously given?

Faith comes from the gospel. Without it man would not have any faith.

 

[Particular]

Salvation is the gift not faith.


Faith comes from the gospel. Without it man would not have any faith.

Rev, you didn't actually answer my questions. Would you be kind enough to answer them?

Is faith the reaching out for the gift or is faith the gift?
When you are receiving gifts at a holiday, is it faith that opens the gift? If so, what is the gift?
Or, is faith the gift, but you determine if you are going to open it and use what you have been graciously given?

 

[Revmitchell]

Rev, you didn't actually answer my questions. Would you be kind enough to answer them?

Is faith the reaching out for the gift or is faith the gift?


When you are receiving gifts at a holiday, is it faith that opens the gift? If so, what is the gift?



Or, is faith the gift, but you determine if you are going to open it and use what you have been graciously given?

Yes I did answer them.

 

[InTheLight]

Rev, you didn't actually answer my questions. Would you be kind enough to answer them?

He did answer them.

Is faith the reaching out for the gift or is faith the gift?

Neither. Salvation is the gift.

When you are receiving gifts at a holiday, is it faith that opens the gift?

No. The recipient of the gift opens it. (Note that there would be no opening of the gift if there were no gift given.)

If so, what is the gift?

Whatever is under the wrapping paper.

Or, is faith the gift, but you determine if you are going to open it and use what you have been graciously given?

The gift is salvation, by grace. We are saved by grace so that no one may boast about good works saving them.

 

[Particular]

Yes I did answer them.

I'm afraid you didn't. You stated:
"Faith comes from the gospel. Without it man would not have any faith."
Your statement does not speak to whether faith is what accepts the gift or whether faith is the gift.
However, I will ask a question about your comment.
If faith comes from the gospel, it does not necessarily come from God. Instead it comes from the preaching of the good news or the reading of the good news.
The gospel is the message given to all, but not all respond with joy to the gospel.
So you state:
"Faith comes from the gospel. Without it man would not have any faith."
I take this to mean that humans cannot have faith if they cannot receive the good news by some means.
Is faith a gift given by God to men or is faith the response of man to the gospel, with the gospel being God's gift?

 

[Particular]

He did answer them.



Neither. Salvation is the gift.



No. The recipient of the gift opens it. (Note that there would be no opening of the gift if there were no gift given.)



Whatever is under the wrapping paper.



The gift is salvation, by grace. We are saved by grace so that no one may boast about good works saving them.

What is under the wrapping paper?

Is it Salvation?

Is grace the fact that God chooses to whom he will give salvation?

Is faith, then, your work after or before God graciously gives you the gift of salvation?

 

[InTheLight]

What is under the wrapping paper?

Is it Salvation?

In your metaphor, yes.

Is grace the fact that God chooses to whom he will give salvation?

No.

Is faith, then, your work after or before God graciously gives you the gift of salvation?

Neither. Faith is not a work.



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[Particular]

In your metaphor, yes.



No.



Neither. Faith is not a work.



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Hmmm...it seems you have a conundrum in your understanding of grace, faith and God's work in salvation. I could point it out, but I don't think you would even listen, so I simply accept that you live with your conundrum and may even be ignorant of the problem that you face.

 

[InTheLight]

Hmmm...it seems you have a conundrum in your understanding of grace, faith and God's work in salvation. I could point it out, but I don't think you would even listen, so I simply accept that you live with your conundrum and may even be ignorant of the problem that you face.

Yes. Definitely a #5 moment from this Calvinist.

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[Particular]

Yes. Definitely a #5 moment from this Calvinist.

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Or a #0 from ITL.
What do you actually believe, ITL?
Is faith a gift from God or not?