Part 3, Earth Millions of Years Old?

[Thinkingstuff]

Not really "thinking"...

God is the ontological other. Basically there is God and then there is everything else.

John 1:3
All things....ALL things.....ALL THINGS.....ALL THINGS came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing ......NOTHING..not one thing...came into being that has come into being.

In other words...if it is not God, and it exist, that means it came from God.

I've never denied that all things come from God we are discussion the manner from which they come from God.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

As this nowhere discussion lost me on its first thread, I haven't been following the second and third. But I did catch this by the New Posts click, that you don't know of any parable in the OT. Well there are plenty in the Psalms. Do the sun and moon and stars and waters all literally praise Him? I ain't heard them. Is God really a rock or a shield? Did David literally make his bed in sheol and find God there? As for others, when Jacob is giving his sons the blessings, he says Issachar is a strong donkey, Dan is a serpent, Naphtali is a loose doe, et al. And finally, the prophecies; particularly the visions or dreams in prophecy... Joseph's 12 stars and the sun and moon bowing down to him; Daniel's goat galloping out of the east to conquer-- which presents another problem for those who think if prophecy is of true events it is literally true-- a goat really can gallop out of the east, but Daniel was told it meant a conqueror. Last of all in the OT, whether the true literal Elijah was/is going to come before the Messiah... and another literalism problem in that Jesus said John the Baptist "is" Elijah, while JB himself answered that question by saying he is not.

Well, I am procrastinating doing my taxes and writing a check, and this is one way to fill that time.

Very good observation:thumbs:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Who created darkness? As Jarthur said, all things were created by Him. So who would have created it? It tells us that AFTER God created the heavens and the earth that there was darkness, deep and waters. It does not state at all that these were existent before God created the heavens and the earth. You can't go much further back than the "beginning".

I do not believe in the gap theory at all - nor does the Scripture support it.



As Marcia stated, there is no internal or external evidence that this is a parable. None whatsoever.

Which is where your problem lies if you take the creation account very literally. The bible does not say God created Darkness. You infer it because all things come from God because Jarthur001 says it. However, does evil come from God? He's not a double predestinarian but that systems seems to hold that God must have caused men to fail due to being chosen to be a "vessel for destruction" which seems evil. So not all things come from God definately not evil. So Darkness which is antithetical of God may not have been created by him either. See, your process begins to fall apart at Genesis1:2.

 

[Jarthur001]

I've never denied that all things come from God we are discussion the manner from which they come from God.

but you did...didn't you?

The darkness that you wondered about is space. Space is part of creation and was made by God. Space, Time and Matter....all part of Gods creation.

Remove all of these elements and you have God and God only...the ontological other.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Thinkingstuff: // I've never denied that all things come from God we are discussion the manner from which they come from God. //

Amen, Brother -- me neither. Nor do I remember you denying your own observations (not those of science). In fact, God created the first 'Yom' before Creating the Earth -- something that the 'New Earth' error fails to teach. BTW, the 24-hour-only Day folk also seem to overlook both the Hebrew and English term 'day' - the several meanings of 'day' (or 'Yom')

Jarthur001: // The darkness that you wondered about is space. Space is part of creation and was made by God. Space, Time and Matter....all part of Gods creation. //

Amen, Brother Jarthur001 -- Preach it.
But preach it right -- the very darkness in the night sky speaks to us not only Did God, the Ancient of Ancients, create the Universe out of Nothing (a long time ago, millions of years) -- God created a Universe which is still composed of NOTHING. (dig a little deeper and you find Messiah Yeshua holding the universe together. If Jesus ever quits holding the universe together, it will as dissolve as in great heat & as with great noise.

So you (the reader) might want to get on the good side of Messiah Iesus :applause:

 

[annsni]

Just want to add that the sun, moon and starts DO praise God. Does something have to make noise to praise Him? Well many, many celestial bodies make noise - just look it up.

I'd actually ask you to go to Youtube and watch the 5 or 6 videos by Louie Giglio called Indescribable. WELL worth the 40 minutes to watch all of the videos. WELL worth it. Use it as your quiet time today if you can. Trust me.

Praising God is not just with words but with the heart - with all our being. All of creation praises God - that is without doubt.

 

[MB]

It doesn't say the earth wasn't perfect!

It was without form because God was shaping it. It's a way of saying God formed the earth - it did not form itself and it was not formed by natural causes and it was not formed by someone else. It's just a way of saying God made the earth. Verse 1 is the overrall view and then verse 2 starts in on the more specific view.

The reason I see it as not being perfect is because scripture says it was with out form and void. There is simply more evidence for a much older earth than there is for one that is only 6000 to 13000 years old. Then there is eternity and God has always existed. He has existed as long ago in the past as He will in the future. That's for ever in the past and forever in the future. Since God doesn't change He has always desired to Create the earth and man. Why wait an eternity to do it? Was He busy doing something else first? We don't know what He was doing. Believing God is centered just around us seems closed minded. Instead of closing off all other possibilities I'd rather stay open to possibilities like we are not the first. Thinking we are the first is assumed, because scripture doesn't say we are.
MB

 

[Jarthur001]

Thinkingstuff: // I've never denied that all things come from God we are discussion the manner from which they come from God. //

Amen, Brother -- me neither. Nor do I remember you denying your own observations (not those of science). In fact, God created the first 'Yom' before Creating the Earth -- something that the 'New Earth' error fails to teach. BTW, the 24-hour-only Day folk also seem to overlook both the Hebrew and English term 'day' - the several meanings of 'day' (or 'Yom')

Jarthur001: // The darkness that you wondered about is space. Space is part of creation and was made by God. Space, Time and Matter....all part of Gods creation. //

Amen, Brother Jarthur001 -- Preach it.
But preach it right -- the very darkness in the night sky speaks to us not only Did God, the Ancient of Ancients, create the Universe out of Nothing (a long time ago, millions of years) -- God created a Universe which is still composed of NOTHING. (dig a little deeper and you find Messiah Yeshua holding the universe together. If Jesus ever quits holding the universe together, it will as dissolve as in great heat & as with great noise.

So you (the reader) might want to get on the good side of Messiah Iesus :applause:

Amen Ed!!! PREACH IT!!

However, you may want to remember nothing in your context is matter. God made the space as well. And God not Jarthur says it all happened in a week, not what Ed says.

 

[Marcia]

Alright, then how about this:

"Once the trees went forth to anoint a king over them, and they said to the olive tree, 'Reign over us!'
"But the olive tree said to them, 'Shall I leave my fatness with which God and men are honored, and go to wave over the trees?'
"Then the trees said to the fig tree, 'You come, reign over us!'
"But the fig tree said to them, 'Shall I leave my sweetness and my good fruit, and go to wave over the trees?'
"Then the trees said to the vine, 'You come, reign over us!'
"But the vine said to them, 'Shall I leave my new wine, which cheers God and men, and go to wave over the trees?'
"Finally all the trees said to the bramble, 'You come, reign over us!' "The bramble said to the trees, 'If in truth you are anointing me as king over you, come and take refuge in my shade; but if not, may fire come out from the bramble and consume the cedars of Lebanon. [Judges 9:8-15]

I would call this an allegory. However, the point is whether you want to call it an allegory or whatever, it is clear from the context and text itself that it is not literal. This is not true for Gen. 1.

 

[Marcia]

Very good observation:thumbs:

What Alcott cited there are metaphors and figurative language, not parables. As for the other one, I responded to that as well.

There is no evidence in the text or context of Gen. 1 that it is a parable. To say it is a parable is to do violence to the text and imo to not be handling God's word properly.

 

[Marcia]

The reason I see it as not being perfect is because scripture says it was with out form and void. There is simply more evidence for a much older earth than there is for one that is only 6000 to 13000 years old.
MB

No, there is no such evidence. You should read the whole thread and read the posts by Havensdad re this. Scientists assume millions of years then fit the data into that assumption. There is now way to measure this amount of age.

Then there is eternity and God has always existed. He has existed as long ago in the past as He will in the future. That's for ever in the past and forever in the future. Since God doesn't change He has always desired to Create the earth and man. Why wait an eternity to do it? Was He busy doing something else first? We don't know what He was doing. Believing God is centered just around us seems closed minded. Instead of closing off all other possibilities I'd rather stay open to possibilities like we are not the first. Thinking we are the first is assumed, because scripture doesn't say we are.

I am not sure what your point here is about "waiting an eternity" to create the world. God does not have to wait in eternity since he is beyond time - He just is. Also, you can't make time pass in eternity - that is contradictory. God needs no one so I am not sure what your point is about being busy. We don't know what God was doing before creation but he doesn't need to do anything - He just is.

God was and always has been. At some point in God's will, He created the world. He tells us how in Gen. 1 and Ex. 20 - in 6 days. It's stated very clearly and with no vague words or euphemisms. It's as though God wants there to be no doubt about it!! So why do some doubt it? Only because they think evolution is based on fact.

Also, God's word tells us he created the earth to be habitated by man.

 

[MB]

No, there is no such evidence. You should read the whole thread and read the posts by Havensdad re this. Scientists assume millions of years then fit the data into that assumption. There is now way to measure this amount of age.

But there is a way to measure more than 13,000 years and certainly more than just 6000. "Carbon 14" They found the remains of trees that were older that what you might say is the age of the earth at the bottom of the great lakes.

I am not sure what your point here is about "waiting an eternity" to create the world. God does not have to wait in eternity since he is beyond time - He just is.

I didn't say He had to do anything. Never the less eternity is a continuing duration with out beginning or end. God wasn't just sitting around waiting to think up His creation. Since He is all knowledgable He knew for eternity that He desired to create the Earth and man.

Also, you can't make time pass in eternity - that is contradictory.

I believe that is a scinetific theory
Never the less there is a past and a future for things in eternity.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Is that theory right or is the Bible?

God needs no one so I am not sure what your point is about being busy.

If God didn't need why did He create. That really doesn't make any sense. God desires our love not only that but He deserves it too. Man was created to Love God and the only way we can give Him genuine love is by our willingness to do so.

We don't know what God was doing before creation but he doesn't need to do anything - He just is.

Just sitting there doesn't sound like the God who now holds the universe together. Maybe He just got tired of sitting around doing nothing.

God was and always has been. At some point in God's will, He created the world. He tells us how in Gen. 1 and Ex. 20 - in 6 days. It's stated very clearly and with no vague words or euphemisms. It's as though God wants there to be no doubt about it!! So why do some doubt it? Only because they think evolution is based on fact.

I do not believe I evolved from monkeys. I was procreated after my partents kind and we all Came from one man Adam. All animals and men were made from the same stuff they return to after death. The dust of the Earth. Adam was fully man when he was created. Evolution just doesn't fit scripture. But then placing limits on God doesn't fit it either.
Not every Archeologist is an atheist or should I say Darwin idolizer

God has destroyed the Earth with a flood once we know from the history of the Bible. He could have done the same thing many times before. Not that He didn't want us to know but maybe didn't have the reason or desire to explain it to us.

If God spoke the Earth into existance it only makes sense that a perfect God's creation would not have needed a remodeling

Also, God's word tells us he created the earth to be habitated by man.

I agree but He created everything else first so that man would have the fruit of the earth to eat.

MB

 

[Ed Edwards]

Science1 = the branch of Mathematical Logic which Assumes there is a Creative God and this God's attributes enable human beings to determine more of His attributes by studying His creation: the Universe(s).


Science2 = the illogical branch of the World Order (AKA: World governance /plural/ ) which by statement of God is doomed to failure.

 

[Alcott]

No, there is no such evidence. You should read the whole thread and read the posts by Havensdad re this. Scientists assume millions of years then fit the data into that assumption. There is now way to measure this amount of age.

This is completely incompetent. Among scientists and creationists, it is creationists who assume the answer and struggle to find and fit data, and when they don't they further assume and deny... and that's not science. I will repeat my only position on this, lest it be forgotten: there is no reason God had to create space-time as man-time before any days of creation then begin working a 6-day week according to the rotation of a planet that did not yet exist.

For one scientific example, you have probably seen cave formations at some time. Observation shows that rainwater trickling through the earth combines with carbon dioxide to form a weak acid, carbonic acid, which, when it reaches the limestone drips and leave a tiny portion of suspended lime and makes the formations; and that it takes about a century for 1/2 inch of such formations to form. Many formations are several feet. So if it would take approx. 24 centuries for one foot to form, the largest any such formation could be is 2 1/2 feet with a 6000-year-old earth. But I've seen thousands of such formations much larger. So... do you accept the scientific conclusion of how cave formations come about, but deny it takes as long as obsevations indicate? Do you think the rate of formations is changed, presumably by the will of God? Or do you think He put it all together to lead to a logical conclusion to indicate the Bible is wrong?

 

[MB]

This is completely incompetent. Among scientists and creationists, it is creationists who assume the answer and struggle to find and fit data, and when they don't they further assume and deny... and that's not science. I will repeat my only position on this, lest it be forgotten: there is no reason God had to create space-time as man-time before any days of creation then begin working a 6-day week according to the rotation of a planet that did not yet exist.

For one scientific example, you have probably seen cave formations at some time. Observation shows that rainwater trickling through the earth combines with carbon dioxide to form a weak acid, carbonic acid, which, when it reaches the limestone drips and leave a tiny portion of suspended lime and makes the formations; and that it takes about a century for 1/2 inch of such formations to form. Many formations are several feet. So if it would take approx. 24 centuries for one foot to form, the largest any such formation could be is 2 1/2 feet with a 6000-year-old earth. But I've seen thousands of such formations much larger. So... do you accept the scientific conclusion of how cave formations come about, but deny it takes as long as obsevations indicate? Do you think the rate of formations is changed, presumably by the will of God? Or do you think He put it all together to lead to a logical conclusion to indicate the Bible is wrong?

Let me distance my self from you. The Bible doesn't say how long it was between Genesis 1:1 and verse 2. The Bible has never been proved to be wrong ever. The rate of formations depends entirely on the amount of moisture involved and anyone should be smart enough to figure that out.
The very water that drips from the celing at Carlsbad Caverns very's according to rain fall. With climate changes it would be impossible to base anytime figures on there formations. I have no idea of your sorce but they are wrong.
MB

 

[Marcia]

But there is a way to measure more than 13,000 years and certainly more than just 6000. "Carbon 14" They found the remains of trees that were older that what you might say is the age of the earth at the bottom of the great lakes.

These are all based on theories. They have no real way of measuring this - check it out.

I didn't say He had to do anything. Never the less eternity is a continuing duration with out beginning or end. God wasn't just sitting around waiting to think up His creation. Since He is all knowledgable He knew for eternity that He desired to create the Earth and man.

OK not sure what your point is.

I believe that is a scinetific theory
Never the less there is a past and a future for things in eternity.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Is that theory right or is the Bible?

Surely you are not saying that this means the word 'day' anywhere in the Bible can mean 1,000 years! It is a statement that fits that particular context. In many cases, the word "day" just means a day, as in using a number with a day, like the first day, the second day, etc. as in Gen. 1. This was already discussed on previous pages of this thread. You should read the thread.

If God didn't need why did He create. That really doesn't make any sense. God desires our love not only that but He deserves it too. Man was created to Love God and the only way we can give Him genuine love is by our willingness to do so.

To say God needed something or someone makes him less than God. God does not need anyone or anything! Yes, he desires our love but he does not need it.

Just sitting there doesn't sound like the God who now holds the universe together. Maybe He just got tired of sitting around doing nothing.

What??? I can't believe you are saying this. How could God get tired of existing? He is perfect - he has no needs or wants. This sounds like a God made in man's image.

I do not believe I evolved from monkeys. I was procreated after my partents kind and we all Came from one man Adam. All animals and men were made from the same stuff they return to after death. The dust of the Earth. Adam was fully man when he was created. Evolution just doesn't fit scripture. But then placing limits on God doesn't fit it either.
Not every Archeologist is an atheist or should I say Darwin idolizer

Well, what are you saying? Are you a theistic evolutionist?

 

[Marcia]

This is completely incompetent. Among scientists and creationists, it is creationists who assume the answer and struggle to find and fit data, and when they don't they further assume and deny... and that's not science. I will repeat my only position on this, lest it be forgotten: there is no reason God had to create space-time as man-time before any days of creation then begin working a 6-day week according to the rotation of a planet that did not yet exist.

For one scientific example, you have probably seen cave formations at some time. Observation shows that rainwater trickling through the earth combines with carbon dioxide to form a weak acid, carbonic acid, which, when it reaches the limestone drips and leave a tiny portion of suspended lime and makes the formations; and that it takes about a century for 1/2 inch of such formations to form. Many formations are several feet. So if it would take approx. 24 centuries for one foot to form, the largest any such formation could be is 2 1/2 feet with a 6000-year-old earth. But I've seen thousands of such formations much larger. So... do you accept the scientific conclusion of how cave formations come about, but deny it takes as long as obsevations indicate? Do you think the rate of formations is changed, presumably by the will of God? Or do you think He put it all together to lead to a logical conclusion to indicate the Bible is wrong?

Sorry, I did a lot of reading on this to equip my son for the pro-evolution stuff he would get in school. There are way too many holes in evolution to say it is rock solid or even that it has good evidence for its theories. Also, look at how often they have to change what they teach! They are always coming up with stuff that disproves their previous theories.

Did you read about the volcano at Mt. St Helen's and how the formations there formed in a matter of weeks - formations that are similar to formations that evolutionists say take tens of thousands of years?

I think the truth of these formations and the true age of anything is in tune with God's word but evolution is a theory from man and not based on real facts. It's an interpretation of the way things are and how they happened.

 

[Alcott]

Let me distance my self from you.

Permission granted.

I have no idea of your sorce but they are wrong.

"Average growth rates for dripstones (stalactites) are about ½ inch for every 100 years (Figure 2a and 2b)." fr. http://www.uwec.edu/jolhm/Cave/caveform2.htm

 

[Ed Edwards]

Alcott: // ... carbonic acid, which, when it reaches the limestone drips and leave a tiny portion of suspended lime and makes the formations; and that it takes about a century for 1/2 inch of such formations to form. //

That is right.

It takes way longer to make the limestone bed, some several miles thick, at the bottom of shallow seas -- much longer then to make lime-cicles after the sea disappears and the limestone bed rises out of the sea.

http://encarta.msn.com/media_461547380_761565838_-1_1/limestone_with_fossils.html

Limestone is a sedimentary rock that forms either by the accumulation of shells, shell fragments, or coral fragments, or by the crystallization of the mineral calcite from water. The first kind, called fossiliferous limestone, can provide geologists with a record of the evolution of prehistoric animals. Geologists call limestone containing large fragments of shell or coral 'coquina'.

Which pretty well says what I had in my head from my school studies back in Biology in the U.S. High School, 9th grade, some 50 years ago. (I don't have the foggiest what I did yesterday but I remember long ago -- go figure ... )

sedimentary rock -- rock settled in other material (usually water) layer by layer

God's Sedimentary Plan for Doctrine building:
Isa 28:10 (KJV1611 Edition)
For precept must be vpon precept,
precept vpon precept,
line vpon line,
line vpon line,
here a litle, and there a litle.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Marcia: // Are you a theistic evolutionist? //

Remind us what theistic evolutionist means.
I believe that God created the universe, including evolution.
I was NOT invited to that creation (unless it is ongoing?)
even though I think of myself as a fair engineer (retired).