Problems with Orthodoxy and Catholicism

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Sean Connery is Scottish. And have you notice the best bonds aren't English. Though Daniel Craig is changing this opinion of mine.

Yes I know but cant you just hear the deep voiced "Indeed"

See the english go "Aaaaaah Hello" very fruitish.... but Connery (being a Jock) has the right tone.

Dan Craig.....how would you like your Martini sir? .... I dont care just give me the damn drink.... agreed, thats blue collar style.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I guess Paul and Timothy didn't get your memo, then.

No, they didn't get any memo from me because they didn't need it as that is their position as it is the position of Christ and the scriptures. However, your memo is what they rejected.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I guess Paul and Timothy didn't get your memo, then.

Ohh, thats good lol:laugh:

 

[Matt Black]

No, they didn't get any memo from me because they didn't need it as that is their position as it is the position of Christ and the scriptures. However, your memo is what they rejected.

Funny then how Paul included 'my memo' then but not 'yours'... How odd!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

how do you believe Jesus Christ, a Jew mind you, worshiped during his ministry?...where do you see Christ correcting His Disciples to throw away their liturgical form of worship they were accustomed to being Jews themselves and adopting this "new way of life and worship"?

Where AiC, show the class...

The only place in Holy Scripture we see, not really a "change", but an addition to the style of "worship" was at the Last Supper...here we still see a liturgical form of worship the Apostles were familiar with it...but Christ introduces the Eucharist...and from there we read in the Books, Letters and Epistles of the NT how the Eucharist is incorporated into worship.

show the class from early Church history that your way of worship today (in a non-liturgical form) is the "new direction" you speak of God starting?

we've had practicing Jews in our community visit our Orthodox Divine Liturgy and comment how closely our Liturgy is to theirs up until the Bread and Wine are brought to the altar and the Eucharistic liturgical form of the NT takes over.

we also throughout the year receive a number of protestants and Roman Catholics that are discouraged by the evolution of worship in their church. How dead and Hollywood production it's become...even the Baptist Fundamental Church I was raised in now has a Bluegrass band that performs...absolutely ridiculous..

I praise God that He's lead me into the Orthodox Christian Church...were our liturgical structure has remained the same for 2,000 years...the ONLY evolution of our Liturgy came in the form of shortening the liturgy...

My relatives complain and moan about the changes in their Church...I just smile at them...they tell me..."you just wait, your church will change too"...I just continue to smile...It'll never happen...

you really need to stop drinking the kool-aid...seriously, it's bad for you...

God didn't "orchestrate persecution" to scatter his Church...LOL...The NT shows St. Paul, setting up Churches throught Aisa Minor...what are you even talking about...The Apostles are doing extactly as Christ commanded them to do...Go forth into all the land and make desciples...the Apostles didn't all hang around Jerusalem and wait until persecution and then "scatter"...seriously, you need to learn HOW to think and not WHAT to think...this fairy tale is old...

In XC
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I find this odd the Catholics, my family tells me, are going back in their liturgy moving away from a lot of the 1970's inovations and heralding back to a closer version of the Triniditine Mass which in comparison is more similar to the Chrysostom Liturgy. In fact, at my Father's church, Most of the liturgy is sung in Gregorian style. His only complaint is that some of the prayers are done in Latin. And Protestants, well, worship is a lot more fun for protestants than the classical churches.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Funny then how Paul included 'my memo' then but not 'yours'... How odd!

Don't forget to ensure all your TPS reports have a coversheet. Thank you.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Don't forget to ensure all your TPS reports have a coversheet. Thank you.

Do it in color will you....And show a little effort ....pleeeese

 

[Alive in Christ]

Targus...

"Why is 2 Tim 1:13 no longer profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in rightiousness?"

Who said it wasnt profitable? God was in it the same way He was involved in the written revelation we now turn to exclusivly.

Are there any other portions of Scripture that Alive in Christ would like to discard?

Discard scripture??

Needless to say, that is pure nonsense, and even slander.

But thats OK. I'm a big boy. :wavey: I can handle it.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

I find this odd the Catholics, my family tells me, are going back in their liturgy moving away from a lot of the 1970's inovations and heralding back to a closer version of the Triniditine Mass which in comparison is more similar to the Chrysostom Liturgy.

I've also been told by Roman Catholic converts, that they're waking up to the fact that regardless of their Church heralding back to their roots, their roots should've never been altered to begin with...so they're seeking out the Orthodox Church, a Church who's held fast to the Traditions of the Church.

Also, before I converted to the Orthodox Church and taking RCIA classes, we visited 4 Roman Catholic Churches here in Kansas...of the four, three had worship bands, with worship leaders...i actually couldn't tell the difference between those Churches and the United Methodist Church we had be visiting before...except for the RC liturgy was more defined...The only RC Church that wasn't like the others was the Cathedral downtown, where the Bishop resided.

In fact, at my Father's church, Most of the liturgy is sung in Gregorian style. His only complaint is that some of the prayers are done in Latin. And Protestants, well, worship is a lot more fun for protestants than the classical churches.

As you may know, our Liturgy is sung at different "tones"...one can hear prayers or hymns in either Latin, Greek, Arabic or Russian...since our Church is multicultural...

In XC
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[Alive in Christ]

AgnusDei...

"how do you believe Jesus Christ, a Jew mind you, worshiped during his ministry?

Perfectly.

...where do you see Christ correcting His Disciples to throw away their liturgical form of worship they were accustomed to being Jews themselves and adopting this "new way of life and worship"?

Teaching regarding the new covenant is found primarily in the new testament, although Christ alluded to it at times.

If you spend some time in the new testament scriptures Agnus, with a sincere heart to learn the truth, you might discover something very beautiful happening.

(((Truth))) regarding this issue will be found and understood.


To the scriptures. Always the scriptures.

May God bless you as you seek

 

[targus]

Who said it wasnt profitable? God was in it the same way He was involved in the written revelation we now turn to exclusivly.

Great !!!

Agreed !!!

Can you tell me how 2 Tim 1:13 is profitable to you?

 

[Alive in Christ]

Can you tell me how 2 Tim 1:13 is profitable to you?

It edifies me that God still provided, even before His written revelation..which we turn to now exclusively..was compiled.

Praise God.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Funny then how Paul included 'my memo' then but not 'yours'... How odd!

Jesus certainly missed your memo as he NEVER used oral traditions as authority for anything He believed or taught.

Paul supported oral teaching in keeping with the overall Biblical relationship between oral and written scripture which clearly demonstrates oral precedes written but written supersedes oral. This is Peter's point in 2 Pet. 1:17-21 and it is Peter's memo you didn't get.

 

[Dr. Walter]

It edifies me that God still provided, even before His written revelation..which we turn to now exclusively..was compiled.

Praise God.

The only ORAL tradition you can prove to be apostolic is what is written by the Apostles. I dare anyone to prove anything outside of the Scriptures is apostolic oral tradition! If it is a quotation attributed to the Apostles it must be confirmed by the written scriptures and if there are no written scriptures to confirm it there is no evidence it is.

I dare anyone to prove "the traditions of the elders" that Israel at the time of Christ referred to and followed were inspired by God or equal in authority to the written scirptures.

I dare anyone to prove the oral traditions that preceded the Mosaic writings are equally authoritative as the Mosaic writings without using the Mosaic writings to authenticate each oral tradition.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

The only ORAL tradition you can prove to be apostolic is what is written by the Apostles. I dare anyone to prove anything outside of the Scriptures is apostolic oral tradition! If it is a quotation attributed to the Apostles it must be confirmed by the written scriptures and if there are no written scriptures to confirm it there is no evidence it is.

I dare anyone to prove "the traditions of the elders" that Israel at the time of Christ referred to and followed were inspired by God or equal in authority to the written scirptures.

I dare anyone to prove the oral traditions that preceded the Mosaic writings are equally authoritative as the Mosaic writings without using the Mosaic writings to authenticate each oral tradition.

therein lies you hang-up...you don't properly understand what Holy Tradition is, what tradition is and how we don't pit Holy Tradition and Holy Scripture against each other...Everything we believe and teach in the Orthodox Church in regard to Holy Tradition is supported by Holy Scripture and vice versa...tradition (small "t") doesn't have to be found in Holy Scripture...there is a difference.

the table of contents of the Holy Scriptures is based on Holy Tradition...the writings of the certain Apostolic Church Fathers and Early Church Fathers lists what letters, books and Epistles were authentic.

In XC
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[Dr. Walter]

therein lies you hang-up...you don't properly understand what Holy Tradition is, what tradition is and how we don't pit Holy Tradition and Holy Scripture against each other...Everything we believe and teach in the Orthodox Church in regard to Holy Tradition is supported by Holy Scripture and vice versa...tradition (small "t") doesn't have to be found in Holy Scripture...there is a difference.

the table of contents of the Holy Scriptures is based on Holy Tradition...the writings of the certain Apostolic Church Fathers and Early Church Fathers lists what letters, books and Epistles were authentic.

In XC
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Jesus never placed any kind of oral tradition on an authoritative level with scripture - Never! Not once! He never used oral tradition to support Scripture and never used Scripture to support oral tradition - Never! Not once. Your position is not the position of Christ nor the authority of Christ.

The Biblical position in regard to the use of oral tradition does not support your position. The Biblical position is that oral tradition is temporary and is superseded by scripture (2 Pet. 1:17-21) rather than permenant and contemporary with scripture.

The Biblical writers, whethe Moses, the prophets or Apostles REPLACED oral traditions with the authority of Scriptures rather than used scriptures to prolong, define or defend oral traditions as a contempoary authority with Scriptures.

Hence, your whole position is the undermining of the final authority of scripture by MISINTERPRETATION of scripture to support and defend what Moses, the prophets, Christ and the Apostles never claimed. They never claimed that scripture could be used to support previous oral traditions as authoritative. Scripture always superseded oral traditions - always.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The Roman Catholic Church is equivilent to the Religous leaders in the day of Christ when it comes to the issue of oral traditions.

Jesus intentionaly refused to use oral traditions as any source or kind of authority to base His teaching upon. He always used the scriptures and NEVER used oral traditions as a source of authority to support, teach, correct, admonish, instruct his disciples in regard to defining truth. Never! He did not simply reject oral tradition as "an" authority but rejected the use of oral tradition altogether in teaching the doctrines of God.

Moses, the prophets and the Apostles had the gift of prophecy and their oral teaching was authoritative IN THEIR EARTHLY MINISTRY but ALWAYS replaced and superseded by scripture written by them under inspiration.

The Holy Spirit reminded the apostles of the words of Christ and then led them to put them into print as authoritative scriptures to supersede and replace everything they said orally IN THEIR EARTHLY MINISTRY.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Dr Walter posted...

Hence, your whole position is the undermining of the final authority of scripture by MISINTERPRETATION of scripture to support and defend what Moses, the prophets, Christ and the Apostles never claimed. They never claimed that scripture could be used to support previous oral traditions as authoritative. Scripture always superseded oral traditions - always.

And still does. Its just so obvious.

Unfortunetly, there is some >>severe<< blindness here on this thread.

 

[DHK]

Neither of the above are good proof texts for your arguments: the former excludes all the NT and the latter most of it. I suggest you start over...

Isaiah 8:20 and 2Tim.3:16? Surely you jest?
The Bible is just as applicable today as it was in Isaiah's day and in Paul's day. Mankind has not changed. God has not changed. His word, and the truths contained therein have not changed. Your logic is amiss. The Exodus took place 1440 B.C. Thus approximately 3,400 years ago the Ten Commandments were written and given to Moses. But according to you, they are no more relevant because they were written in the time of Moses when there was very little of God's Word written, if any--you would conjecture.

The fact is that these truths are timeless. Unless man abides by them he is condemned to walk in darkness. That is the truth taught in Isaiah 8:20. Nothing has changed since. Nothing has changed since Malachi wrote 2,500 years ago:

"I am the Lord, I change not!"

 

[DHK]

As you may know, our Liturgy is sung at different "tones"...one can hear prayers or hymns in either Latin, Greek, Arabic or Russian...since our Church is multicultural...

In XC
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Did you mean to say that is what God hears??
That eliminates all the prayers of the OT saints, most of whom prayed to Jehovah in Hebrew or Aramaic. You certainly have limited God. It also has limited most of North Americans who only know English.