Regeneration

[GordonSlocum]

Probably not to your satisfaction, so I am not sure that I even want to try. I just want to point out that you are asking the question wrong. Regeneration and faith are both part of salvation. The question that you want answered is, does regeneration precede faith?

My answer - chronologically they are simultaneous, but logcally regeneration (aka "the new birth") must precede faith and repentance. No one can choose to be born again any more than anyone can choose to be born the first time.

8. But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching

Information needed - what information is that? "the word of faith" Plane and simple the gospel.


9. that if you confess with your mouth Jesus {as} Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Notice that for those who are included in verse 8 are told they have a choice. "that if you ......" That is correct they will be saved after they have faith in the word of faith. Any enlightenment men receive is from hearing the "word of faith and after they hear it they can reject it or accept it "if you ........"

10. for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Not rocket science just simple easy to understand Scripture.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Jkdbuck.

We do not and cannot choose if and when we are physically born.
Can we choose if and when we are spiritually re-born?

Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
Scripture says no. John 1:12-13.

Where Adam and Eve totally depraved originally?

Adam and Eve were sinless until God bound all men over to disobedience. Rom 11:32. God is Sovereign.

1) You shall surely die.....is that spiritual, physical, or does it depend on who I ask?

It was immediate spiritual death leading to physical death and decay and yes, it depends on who you ask.

2) Would they have lived forever in their original bodies had they not taken of the fruit?

Their bodies would have lasted forever.

john.

 

[johnp.]

Hello skypair.

And we know that OT saints could be "filled" with the Spirit. Filling is NOT regeneration.

That's a very good answer but whether John was OT or NT he was acting as a saint in the womb. Controlled by the Spirit of God.

Regeneration is faith being given.

And given to whom? Those that believe, right?

To those He chose. One must be born again before he can grasp God. Until then it's business as usual, the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Rom 8:7. What happens to your belief when faith comes in?

You're right -- faith orginates from God but it is only given AFTER belief.

They mean the same thing.

john.

 

[johnp.]

Hello MB.

Being shapened in iniquity and being conceived in sin are two different things.

They look pretty much like the same thing to me.

We are born in sin this is true but we are not sinners until we sin. It's true we have a sin nature but we are not sinners until we sin.

But it is sin that makes us sinners. We are not sinners because we sin we sin because we are sinners, it is sin living in us that causes us to sin. The things we do are only the symptoms of our illness not the illness itself. Why do babies die?

john.

 

[J.D.]

Can I ask a question or two?
1) You shall surely die.....is that spiritual, physical, or does it depend on who I ask?

2) Would they have lived forever in their original bodies had they not taken of the fruit?

I agree with JohnP's answers to your questions.

 

[skypair]

Why anyone that claims to believe the bible would embrace open theism is beyond my understanding.

I guess the thought of an absolutely sovereign God is too frightening for some people.

Hi, J.D.

I know that remark was made in love, but it reveals that you believe in an all-controlling God. If we are nothing but marrionettes, so be it. That is not what I find in scriptures though.

I find a God who more than once displayed dismay at His creation (before the flood and to Moses -- both times repenting and intending to destroy His work).

I find a God who wants those who believe, love, and trust Him to be with Him eternally -- not who are scared of their own Father. I spent a great deal of my youth afraid of my controlling earthly father, J.D., and I know it is not a healthy relationship. In fact, I repented but my next 2 brothers didn't and they lived through hell as teens!

The Sovereign God you claim to worship is scarey alright. But scarey is not loving as Dave Hunt points out.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Here's a thorough treatment of the subject:

http://www.dbts.edu/journals/2002/Snoeberger.pdf


I stole it from another forum that's running parallel to this one. Gorden started the same thread over there.

J.D. -- That is a very good argument from the side of the Calvinist. I find several thoughts very disturbing though.

1) Just as I surmised, the Reformers get their "regeneration tradition" from the Catholics who made baptism the "seed" of regeneration unto sanctification mistaking sanctification for salvation!

2) They acknowledge my same model of the human mind, emotion, and will being totally involved in the salvation decision but then totally renounce the will as capable.

3) The biggest flaw is this -- the author actually sees the argument and scriptural foundation for belief to precede faith and regeneration but then dismisses it! He even admits that some of the limited number of passages that show "belief unto life" are speaking of UNTO REGENERATION!!

J.D. -- it is my position that one is able to believe and from belief springs a commttment of the mind, emotions, and will to a) repent and b) receive faith unto eternal life.

I've copied the document so I can study it later. Thank you for providing it -- I hope you too will study it in the light of what I have just said.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Why do you guys keep saying things like this? Faith and belief are the same thing. The NT has only one word for it: pistis (pisteuo in the verb form). This is a distinction that flows from your necessity to defend a system. It does not flow from Scritpure.

In the article that J.D. provided and which you referred someone to, the author could easily discern and quote those verses that referred to "belief" and those that referred to "faith."

So get on board the train the rest of us are riding if you want to make any sense at all of the issue.

skypair

 

[skypair]

You can see that those who believe in regeneration preceding faith have strong biblical support.

Or if you are not interested, you can just go on saying something that isn't true.

YOU WHO?? Again, lar, who do you expect to respond if you omit their name?

skypair

 

[skypair]

Johnp, jkdbuck,

...

Quote:jkdbuck:
1) You shall surely die.....is that spiritual, physical, or does it depend on who I ask?

Johnp: It was immediate spiritual death leading to physical death and decay and yes, it depends on who you ask.

The "book" answer is their souls died immendiately, their spirits died pregressively, their bodies died eventually -- all 3 died.

Quote: jkdbuck:
2) Would they have lived forever in their original bodies had they not taken of the fruit?

Johnp: Their bodies would have lasted forever.

No sir! Not even close. Whether for good or bad/God or Satan, there is always something to be believed and something to be received. They would NOT live forever unless they ate of the "tree of life" also! Fact is many wonder if they had eaten of the tree of life whether they could even die after eating the forbidden fruit. What we DO know is that God sealed off with angels the tree of life after Adam and Eve fell.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Hello skypair.

That's a very good answer but whether John was OT or NT, he was acting as a saint in the womb. Controlled by the Spirit of God.

Regeneration is faith being given.

OK, I can agree that the Spirit/God made John do something that he would not have in his own capacity. I believe that about salvation as well -- that the sincere believer is filled with the Spirit and capable of doing something he wouldn't have done in his own power.

And regeneration is faith given -- that's true, too. I have agreed with that all along. It is belief that is not given and that is man's "side of the equation" of salvation.

To those He chose. One must be born again before he can grasp God.

No, as Paul points out in 1Cor 2, man must be born again before he can grasp the deeper things of God. But he can choose God by belief just as readily as he chooses an orange over an apple to eat.

Until then it's business as usual, the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Rom 8:7. What happens to your belief when faith comes in?

What happens? It is confirmed! Faith is the evidence of what we believe, John.

Calvinism has invented all kinds of 'devices' to get around it -- prevenient grace, personal faith, et. -- but the truth is that belief is one thing and faith another. How else do you explain people being born again under the very real (intellectual) fear (emotion) that they are going to hell in their present state? This is not "the mind of God" at work but the mind of that individual, friend.

They mean the same thing.

Christ and Messiah mean the same thing too -- or do they?

skypair

 

[MB]

Hi JD;

Here's a thorough treatment of the subject:

http://www.dbts.edu/journals/2002/Snoeberger.pdf


I stole it from another forum that's running parallel to this one. Gorden started the same thread over there.

After I finished reading your link, I see your point Calvinism doesn't insist on pre-faith regeneration. I almost over looked a very informative piece of information form you, I apologize. Most Calvinist do seem to hold to prefaith regeneration according to the Logic of this man named Turitin (Not sure of the spelling).
There is a problem with Logic in it being the science men use to figure things out. This is the wisdom of men. Paul said;
1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
God's word I believe is revealed from scripture by God. Which is why to the flesh it doesn't make any sense. The point of beginning Salvation isn't regeneration but the willingness to listen. Men are able to Hear and understand when it is the Holy Spirit who is revealing it to the man. Regeneration isn't needed by an all powerful God to do what may seem impossible to man. Man was given a choice and scripture clearly shows that man has always had a choice. Man doesn't do anything to gain Salvation but the man must receive it voluntarily. Submission is always voluntary and we need to submit to His righteousness.

Man is a sinner and in need of a redeemer. Man doesn't come seeking Salvation with out knowing such exist. It isn't because He can't seek God.

All men can hear, if they will only listen. The reason Christ asked some pharisee's why they didn't hear him wasn't because they couldn't but because they weren't listening. If they couldn't hear and Christ asked them any way would make make Christ seem as if He isn't as much God as we thought, because He would have known before He asked. Some may say well He was using this to teach. How can some one teach any one anything they simply can't understand? You may say by regeneration. If this is so then it should be provable from scripture with out the aid of man's logical science.
There is one other thing that I found in scripture.
The Word of God is the seed. If one receives the Word then one must be regenerated according to prefaith regeneration theory. Those in Samaria received the Word and didn't receive the Spirit until the Apostles got there.
Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
The starting point of Salvation is receiving the Word. These men had received it with out the indwelling of the Spirit. This clearly shows that regeneration is not needed for one to receive and understand the gospel.
MB

 

[Pastor Larry]

In the article that J.D. provided and which you referred someone to, the author could easily discern and quote those verses that referred to "belief" and those that referred to "faith."

If you want to make this distinction, then show it to us in Scripture. Remember, the Greek makes no distinction in this. And neither should you. You are operating on a false premise that these are different. The Scripture gives no indication of this difference.

YOU WHO?? Again, lar, who do you expect to respond if you omit their name?

The one who I was quoting.

 

[GordonSlocum]

Hi JD;


After I finished reading your link, I see your point Calvinism doesn't insist on pre-faith regeneration. I almost over looked a very informative piece of information form you, I apologize. Most Calvinist do seem to hold to prefaith regeneration according to the Logic of this man named Turitin (Not sure of the spelling).
There is a problem with Logic in it being the science men use to figure things out. This is the wisdom of men. Paul said;
1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
God's word I believe is revealed from scripture by God. Which is why to the flesh it doesn't make any sense. The point of beginning Salvation isn't regeneration but the willingness to listen. Men are able to Hear and understand when it is the Holy Spirit who is revealing it to the man. Regeneration isn't needed by an all powerful God to do what may seem impossible to man. Man was given a choice and scripture clearly shows that man has always had a choice. Man doesn't do anything to gain Salvation but the man must receive it voluntarily. Submission is always voluntary and we need to submit to His righteousness.

Man is a sinner and in need of a redeemer. Man doesn't come seeking Salvation with out knowing such exist. It isn't because He can't seek God.

All men can hear, if they will only listen. The reason Christ asked some pharisee's why they didn't hear him wasn't because they couldn't but because they weren't listening. If they couldn't hear and Christ asked them any way would make make Christ seem as if He isn't as much God as we thought, because He would have known before He asked. Some may say well He was using this to teach. How can some one teach any one anything they simply can't understand? You may say by regeneration. If this is so then it should be provable from scripture with out the aid of man's logical science.
There is one other thing that I found in scripture.
The Word of God is the seed. If one receives the Word then one must be regenerated according to prefaith regeneration theory. Those in Samaria received the Word and didn't receive the Spirit until the Apostles got there.
Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
The starting point of Salvation is receiving the Word. These men had received it with out the indwelling of the Spirit. This clearly shows that regeneration is not needed for one to receive and understand the gospel.
MB

Thanks MD for defending the truth. My God richly bless you.

 

[Pastor Larry]

The reason Christ asked some pharisee's why they didn't hear him wasn't because they couldn't but because they weren't listening.

Interesting perspective you have here. The most interesting thing about it is the fact that it is in direct opposition to what Christ said.

John 8:43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.

He said "you cannot." On what basis do you disagree with him? What gives you the authority to say that Christ was wrong and you are right?

 

[npetreley]

Interesting perspective you have here. The most interesting thing about it is the fact that it is in direct opposition to what Christ said.

John 8:43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.

He said "you cannot." On what basis do you disagree with him? What gives you the authority to say that Christ was wrong and you are right?

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LOL, this is why I get upset when people shorten the verse to "Faith comes by hearing the word of God". It doesn't say that. It says "Faith comes by hearing and hearing [comes by] the [uttered] word of God". Or, as I like to put it, "Faith comes by hearing and hearing comes when God says so." Your quote, along with Deuteronomy 29, simply adds weight to my interpretation.

Deut 29:4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.

 

[J.D.]

I only have time for a quick post but I would like to say that this thread has been very informative for me. I knew there was some variety among calvinists as to the order of salvation, as well as the decrees. But I didn't realize how much diversity is there.

The question becomes, whether one believes the "enabling" to believe is regeneration or not, from whence comes this enabling? Only the Pelagian and S/P believe it is from man's own nature. The Arminian and Calvinist alike believe it is from God. So what's the difference between C and A? Well the difference is that Calvinists believe that the Word WILL accomplish that which God has purposed - the Holy Spirit CAN NOT FAIL to bring the elect to faith and subsequently to glory.

 

[MB]

Interesting perspective you have here. The most interesting thing about it is the fact that it is in direct opposition to what Christ said.

John 8:43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.

He said "you cannot." On what basis do you disagree with him? What gives you the authority to say that Christ was wrong and you are right?

[/color][/size]

First my Bible doesn't say it that way.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Let's say they couldn't hear which in truth some Jews couldn't.

Even if some couldn't hear His word it still doesn't imply a disability for the rest of man or even the rest of the men at the time. This disability is the result of the logic of man. How is it you could apply a disability of some, to all? What makes one verse more powerful than all the rest that say men can hear.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Christ said;
Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
What normal man doesn't have ears?
Did Christ just say this to make them all feel better because they couldn't hear or was He infact saying let all men hear His word.
It's true some Jews were blinded. Can you show reason to believe that all men are blinded like they were? I don't think you can.
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
When a Jew picks up the New Testament and starts reading that veil is sometimes taken away. Is it by regeneration? Prove it with scripture and not the science of men and you may have something we all need to see. Science doesn't explain the word it's the other way around.
Even in there blindness they aren't kept from turning there hearts to the Lord by disability. Their blindness was the result of there own rejection of Christ and even then, this blindness wasn't complete. Simply there never was a disability, where they just couldn't hear. They could have if they wanted to turn their heats towards Christ as messiah. Mans desire to turn, is influenced, not forced. It is influence by the power of the Word of God not regeneration. Faith comes by hearing, not by regeneration. Rom 10:17
It's true man doesn't seek God but the cause is lack of knowledge not hearing.
MB

 

[MB]

Hi Pastor Larry;

Interesting perspective you have here. The most interesting thing about it is the fact that it is in direct opposition to what Christ said.

John 8:43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.

He said "you cannot." On what basis do you disagree with him? What gives you the authority to say that Christ was wrong and you are right?

[/color][/size]

One more thing I neglected to add before in my last post. According to my Greens interlinear. It appears this verse you brought up just may be two questions. The words ("it is")were not in it originally. These two words make it seem as if He is telling them and shouldn't be in there without being in Italiacs. The second phrase starts off with the word "because" this doesn't make it a question but it certainly doesn't mean it isn't either.

One verse doesn't make a doctrine.
MB

 

[Benjamin]

Not interesting, just a fact. My faith is in HIM, not in Jkdbuck76. If it were up to Jkdbuck76, I'd be dead by now.

I'm trying to understand something about the nature of the debate.
And I have framed it in the following way as a form of a statement:
We do not and cannot choose if and when we are physically born.
Can we choose if and when we are spiritually re-born?

So answer it or don't. Your quoting my statement of faith doesn't answer the question. I want to know what people think. I want to know what you think.

I apologize for the confusion, I had thought you responded negatively to my post that all men had the ability to choose which I gave in contrast to the dreadful doctrinal statement in the post that I replied to that tauntingly and full of pride said in his own assurance of having being predestined to the effect that why don’t Arminians go out and save some souls that Jesus couldn’t manage.

So yes, it was interesting to me, as I looked to see who replied to me and saw your statement of faith didn’t say, "my faith is in Him because God placed my faith", you said, “Because”.. “I”… “placed”… “my” “faith” which, frankly, I don’t know if you would stick to that or not, but I noted it because of you seemingly coming in contradiction to what I had just said about all men having the ability to choose in defense of the great commission that I felt was being stomped on! So understand the nature of the debate had gone sour in which you entered.

Now in retrospect, I will agree that God does the regenerating and put it that He does so in response to “our” faith. I was not implying we choose to be “spiritually re-born” but chose who to serve by “our” faith; so we might have had a misunderstanding; easy to do on a debate board. So anyway, since I’m temporarily involved here, might as well through in a proof text:


(Rom 10:9) because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


The word "you" appears four times in this verse alone. I am always surprised that some do not see how much "you" there is in a book and have been taught that supposedly it says that we do nothing.