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Regeneration
- Thread starter GordonSlocum
- Start date
Is there a reason you don't use Scripture to delineate the difference? Of course there is. Scripture doesn't recognize this distinction does it?
I bet trying to get you to support this distinction from Scripture will be as bad as trying to get the Psalm 109:31 to support his idea that election comes after faith from Scripture. It hasn't happened to this day. The only thing he has given is his opinion.
skypair.
You have placed a philosophy around the word belief when all you need is the definition of it.
faith faith noun 1 trust or confidence. 2 strong belief
belief noun 1 a principle or idea, etc accepted as true, especially without proof • belief in the afterlife. 2 trust or confidence 3 a person's religious faith.
trust noun 1 belief or confidence in, or reliance on (Chambers)
They are defined as having the same meaning and that is how the translators translated it and everyone else understands it. Strong's.
believe (4100) : to think to be true
faith (4102) : conviction of the truth of anything, belief
They have the same meaning.
john.
You have placed a philosophy around the word belief when all you need is the definition of it.
faith faith noun 1 trust or confidence. 2 strong belief
belief noun 1 a principle or idea, etc accepted as true, especially without proof • belief in the afterlife. 2 trust or confidence 3 a person's religious faith.
trust noun 1 belief or confidence in, or reliance on (Chambers)
They are defined as having the same meaning and that is how the translators translated it and everyone else understands it. Strong's.
believe (4100) : to think to be true
faith (4102) : conviction of the truth of anything, belief
They have the same meaning.
john.
Belief IS required. Belief is NOT a work. Discern, john. Rom 4:5 -- "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."johnp. said:Are you three doing some sort of research on us?
Belief is required by God for eternal life and Jesus says belief is a work.
JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
Now compare that with Jesus saying that believing is what God requires (the question was, "Then said they unto him, What shall WE do, that WE might work the works of God?" (Jn 6:28) First off, it is NOT God that is doing these works according to the question and answer Jesus gave! Therefore, belief is NOT a work!
Basically you are misinformed and passing untruth!
Second, Stop it! Once you know the truth, it is sin to pass false interpretation! The Bible NOWHERE says belief is a "work!" It is CALVIN that says that! You are preaching Calvinism, not Christ!
skypair
Your sarcasm is nauseating, Larry. I have give you Gal 3:22 and Rom 3:22. "...that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe." "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:" I don't see how you get around these verses, Larry.Pastor Larry said:
Psa 109:31?? I'm sure your fans will be "snowed" by scripture citation without actually quoting the words. Not me.
"For he shall stand at the right hand of the poor, to save him from those that condemn his soul." So tell us, Larry -- how does this prove anything that you accuse me of? Are you "poor?" Am I condemning your soul? See, at this point I'm having trouble with your relevance to the discussion.
skypair
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Now let's see why that distinction is important, BELIEF is required for JUSTIFICATION -- FAITH is required for SANCTIFICATION!!
skypair
I appreciate you proving my point!! Faith does appear to be a "cut above" belief, doesn't it?johnp. said:
Thank you again!!
Now let's see why that distinction is important, BELIEF is required for JUSTIFICATION -- FAITH is required for SANCTIFICATION!!
skypair
Hi John P
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
The only thing our faith does is place us in the faith of Christ.
MB
We aren't saved by our faith or our belief. We are saved by the faith of Jesus Christ.johnp. said:
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
The only thing our faith does is place us in the faith of Christ.
MB
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
emote: to show or affect emotion.
skypair a true believer should be emotional when quoting Scripture.
No! However, I thought that considering your command of Scripture you would be able to do so!
I retract my remark on your command of Scripture. The above response is nonsense. The words believe and faith in Romans 3:22 and Galatians 3:22 come from the same Greek word pistis.
It is sheer nonsense to attempt to distinguish between believe and faith. Simply checking a Strong’s Concordance [#4100 & 4102] will show this.
I believe you are guilty of a faux pas or worse. Quoting from your response to npetreley earlier today [1:27 PM to be exact].
Nonsense. This passage says nothing about the deeper things of God. Can you show me Scripture that talks about the deeper things of God. That sounds like Gnosticism to me.
Nonsense! They cannot discern the Gospel!
John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Matthew 16:1-4, KJV
1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
Jesus is speaking of His resurrection, an essential part of the Gospel. Those who are unregenerate reject the resurrection and all the Gospel.
And be careful how you use the phrase mind of God.
johnp. said:Yes, the work. The work you do? Nothing else to do but the work. The work to believe.
What must we do for eternal life? The work you must do is believe.
Belief is works.
I assume you mean 'Believing is not "works"...' And I say you contradict Jesus and English Blammo.
john.
Yes, obviously I meant "is" not.
And I say I think you are being dumb on purpose. Did you even read my post? If so, this is the laziest answer I have ever received.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Scripture
Belief can come from anything.
Faith can only come to us through the words of Jesus.
I do believe in the scripture over the dictionary.
Faith cames in this matter. First we hear , then we trust in the Lord over our own understanding and He will direct our path.
Only by opening the door and letting God in does He do the work to understand what, and how, and why we believe.
You cannot not do anything without God directing your path or you are just going astray and going your own way.
You will never believe, understand what God wants to teach you through Jesus unless you come to Him as a child and you allow Him to bring you to all the truth.
Jesus is the only one who can remove the vail that we have made and open our eyes to see.
We do not believe in our work, because we cannot do anything without the Lord directed us and that only happens when you trust in Jesus and not your own understanding, so He will direct your path.
The messenger is not greater than the one who sends Him
If we are His child we would believe in Jesus over what we believe.
Jesus came into His own and His own acepted Him not.
So what did Jesus say He would do.
If we disown Jesus before men, He will disown us before His Father in Heaven.
Belief can come from anything.
Faith can only come to us through the words of Jesus.
I do believe in the scripture over the dictionary.
Faith cames in this matter. First we hear , then we trust in the Lord over our own understanding and He will direct our path.
Only by opening the door and letting God in does He do the work to understand what, and how, and why we believe.
You cannot not do anything without God directing your path or you are just going astray and going your own way.
You will never believe, understand what God wants to teach you through Jesus unless you come to Him as a child and you allow Him to bring you to all the truth.
Jesus is the only one who can remove the vail that we have made and open our eyes to see.
We do not believe in our work, because we cannot do anything without the Lord directed us and that only happens when you trust in Jesus and not your own understanding, so He will direct your path.
The messenger is not greater than the one who sends Him
If we are His child we would believe in Jesus over what we believe.
Jesus came into His own and His own acepted Him not.
So what did Jesus say He would do.
If we disown Jesus before men, He will disown us before His Father in Heaven.
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Hello skypair.
Your charge is unfounded, unsupported and forgiven.
JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
"The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
You can protest as much as you like but it will not change the fact that Jesus said belief is a work. Does that annoy you?
Liar and false prophet is nothing compared to some other opinions of me.
If He wants to stop me He will, He has my best interests at Heart. He actually told me to preach this message, you tell Him to tell me to stop. I wouldn't dream of it.
Does Calvin say that as well, as well as Jesus I mean? Where does He say this please? Why do you quote a man in response to scripture? Why do you quote a man that accepts the scripture as if he was something dark when in fact he speaks scripturally? Have I mention Calvin in support of scripture? That'll be the day. The scripture speaks for itself: JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
Belief is a work, the work, works.
I haven't failed at all with strong belief because a strong belief is defined as trust or confidence and belief is also trust or confidence. Your trying to cherry pick. Why didn't you quote: trust noun 1 belief or confidence in, or reliance on (Chambers)
Belief, in your case, then is the cause of your salvation. It is something you do therefore it is a work. Jesus is my Saviour, belief is yours.
john.
Your charge is unfounded, unsupported and forgiven.
JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
"The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
You can protest as much as you like but it will not change the fact that Jesus said belief is a work.
Does that annoy you?Liar and false prophet is nothing compared to some other opinions of me.
If He wants to stop me He will, He has my best interests at Heart. He actually told me to preach this message, you tell Him to tell me to stop. I wouldn't dream of it.
Does Calvin say that as well, as well as Jesus I mean? Where does He say this please? Why do you quote a man in response to scripture? Why do you quote a man that accepts the scripture as if he was something dark when in fact he speaks scripturally? Have I mention Calvin in support of scripture? That'll be the day. The scripture speaks for itself: JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
Belief is a work, the work, works.
I haven't failed at all with strong belief because a strong belief is defined as trust or confidence and belief is also trust or confidence. Your trying to cherry pick. Why didn't you quote: trust noun 1 belief or confidence in, or reliance on (Chambers)
Belief, in your case, then is the cause of your salvation. It is something you do therefore it is a work. Jesus is my Saviour, belief is yours.
john.
It might be obvious to you.
And an even lazier reply. Now I'm dumb on purpose, I suppose that's guile. HaHa! Deceiver for believing JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
At least I made a point, why do you fail to get to grips with it?
Q: What must we do for eternal life Blammo?
A: (Clue: 'The work you must do is believe.')
Q: Saying belief is not a work contradicts Who?
A: Jesus. JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
Continue with the insults but begin with some answers please.
john.
You are right, that makes no sense and I did not say that. I said this: JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
I have not said the faith of God at all. The work of God is what? To believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and that is a work. If you have trouble with that you are having trouble with scripture not me.
john.
I still don't see where you are getting faith as a work. The work of God is simply the fact that man cannot come to Christ left up to themselves...that's all the text is saying. I don't have a clue why you are using that as your proof text that faith is a work.johnp. said:
Posted by Skypair:
The Bible NOWHERE says belief is a "work!" It is CALVIN that says that! You are preaching Calvinism, not Christ!
JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
Posted by Johnp:
"The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
You can protest as much as you like but it will not change the fact that Jesus said belief is a work.
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GordonSlocum
New Member
johnp. said:
Here is a word for word literal translation of the verse: "Answered Jesus and said to them: This is the work of the of God, that you believe in whom sent that one."
The Jews ask the question, "What may we do to do the work of God?"
I believe in the normal literal way of understanding language. This is my approach to Scripture. To take the position that this dialogue with the Jews is a proof text to force the definition on the word faith that "faith" theologically means working for one's salvation is just simply not (1) factual and (2) a violation of common sense understanding when reading the context and background of the passage.
In these verses the word work is better to be synonymously used in place of the word plan. What is the work of God? What is the plan of God? God's plan is his work and God's work is his plan?
God is the creator. He can create and operate his plan as He decides and He has. So His plan is His work. This is the work of God. What is? That you believe.
The structure of the language in no way makes faith a work. Jesus tells the Jews that the work of God is for them to believe. He knows their heart. Jesus goes on to say in the preceding verses His purpose.
The Jews still did not understand. Notice that the Jews come back with the off base statement that they want to see a miracle to prove that Jesus is from God. God's will is God's work. God's will in God's plan. God's plan is God's work - His doing. Not man's.
To me it is another classical error that is made in forcing meaning onto a word that is not there.
Notice that the Jews asking Jesus these question still don't get it. Their mind set is on works and their heart is set in that direction. The idea of surrender of their will to God's will is not present in their desires. To rely on God's work and forsake their work by believing does not meet their understanding and motives.
Their motives are not pure or correct. They have as their fixed understanding that to do the work of God they have to do something of themselves but Jesus re-directs their thing and points them to "faith" or "believing". God's plan, method, work, way etc.
Notice verse 40 in the continuing discourse with these who just don’t get it. Also notice that the term "will" has not take the place of the work "work". What is the will of God or What is the work of God, or we could say what is the plan of God. The plan is that the ones beholding or believing are the ones that God has given to Jesus. All who believe are the ones God gives to Jesus and Jesus will not lose any of them.
Salvation is God's work. Jesus/God did the dying for our sin and we can not work for it we must simply believe or have faith in the work of God or the plan of God or the will of God which is for us to believe.
When we believe we have done the work of God, not our work. Faith is not work but believing is the plan/work/will by which we are saved. It is God's method.
It is as simple as saying or stating it this way:
How do I get to God? My way or work or God's way or work. The Jews asking the question saw getting to God was by the means of what they did but Jesus clearly tells them it is not their plan but God's - you must believe. Do it God's way or the highway so to speak.
Faith in Jesus by us is the work of God but faith is not works, or working for salvation. There is a big difference. You want to be saved do the work of God - how trust in Him don't try to enter any other way because that is your way, your plan, your doing, your work. You can not get in by your method - only mine - and that is "faith".
God says to everyone, my work for you is that you trust, believe, have faith.
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