Sure! Moslems have a zeal for God when they blow themselves up in the street. The Roman Catholics who burned the martyrs had a zeal for God. The flesh can be very religious (c.f. John 16:2). But that doesn't alter the fact that they are dead in trespasses and sins. Romans 10 doesn't trump Titus 3. You have to take the texts together.Oh boy? OK Martin Oh boy!You didn't happen to read as well Paul's statements in Rom 10:1-2 which states,
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God Rom 10: 1-2
ZEAL==> ζῆλος, ου, ὁ ---zelos----eagerness, zeal, enthusiasm
So...eagerness of God....zeal of God....enthusiasm of God.
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Review of Martin Luther and Free Will
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Yes.
I don't 'admit' it; I state it positively.
You're not listening. I said that God gives them a new heart and a new spirit, and changes their wills.
Do you?
Now you're being really silly! Do you not think that the boy in Mark 9:14-27, when Jesus had healed him, didn't love his father for rescuing him out of the fire against his will? Do you not have cause to thank your father or mother for preventing you from doing foolish things when you were younger? Did they not override your will? Aren't you thankful that they did? I know I am. How much more then should you be thankful to your heavenly Father for rescuing you against your will from death and hell. But of course, that's not exactly what He did. He changed your will, 'for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.'
I do more than admit it; I glory in it! 'Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but to Your name give glory, because of Your mercy, because of Your truth' (Psalm 115:1).
You could not be more utterly and completely wrong. I don't have a god who didn't love me enough to save me but waited for me to save myself. My God took me out of darkness into light when I was dead in trespasses and sin. He didn't give me the option to save myself and then sat back and said, "Let's see how he get's on." God forbid! I was like a child playing in the mud in the street and God scooped me up, as it were, out of the path of an on-coming truck. If He had merely called to me, "Look out! There's a truck coming," I would have taken no notice, but the Lord Jesus rescued me from death and hell. He didn't offer me rescue-- He saved me, at measureless cost to Himself.
Were talking about "quickening". not salvation
Rockson
Active Member
Are all Moslems blowing themselves up in the street? Are all Catholics and Calvinists physically persecuting those to whom they disagree? Yes the flesh can be very religious and can go right to the bottom of the barrel in exhibiting physical aggression.
Do all who have zeal do that however? I'm not saying religious people don't need to be saved but Calvinists have been over zealous in their wanting to put forth that not a single human being has had a good thought or don't even have a capacity for a desire to repent, and I'll add with the Holy Spirit bringing conviction and encouragement to do so.
“And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,” – Acts 17:26-27 (he's not far from us if we'll but seek him? and speaking to every nation of mankind?)
“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.” -Isaiah 55:6-7 (seems like there can be a window of opportunity for someone to be saved which of course would be true for someone could die. If one was going to be saved anyway why even say someone's time may run out?)
And he did evil, for he did not set his heart to seek the Lord.” -2 Chronicles 12:14 (which infers what? that he could have set his heart to serve the Lord)
Rockson
Active Member
Well irresistible grace is being forced to which violates God's character of LOVE.
Nonsense! I had read what you said. In your post #19 you stated God does not 'force His will' on anyone, and said "He changes our will by giving us a new heart, a new spirit, a new birth so that we delight to do His will" Against their will??? Of course you'd claim yes to that being a Calvinist and insist your readers to swallow hook, line and sinker all this bunch of nonsense from you in claiming something like, "It's not forced, it's not forced!"
That's similar to the analogy of the Emperor not wearing any clothes walking down the street and the garment makers trying to deceive the poor peasant smucks saying, "He is clothed, he is clothed! Doesn't matter what you think you see you ignorant people! He is wearing clothes!"
Sorry Bud your Calvinist buddies on here might pat you on the back but as far as the majority of the world's population they'd claim that's the most ridiculous, nonsensical thing ever put out by a person. Being changed against your will isn't force? I'm telling you most of the world's population would tell you it would be.
If you're quickened, you're saved.
no, you are able to be saved,
Rockson
Active Member
Don't give me this ridiculous "Do you?" You said God changes their will against their will and claimed you don't know anyone he did that too saying they don't love God! Well they wouldn't even know that they did genuinely love God unless they were given a free will choice to do so or not to do so.
Oh come on! That was a demon possessed boy who was taken over by this spiritual entity and the scripture says it threw him into the fire. You're claiming that was the boy's will to be in the fire? Please take more time to think through on what you're saying.
Your analogy collapses for this reason. Comparing adult sinners to little children and what parent do or don't do doesn't ask the question then why didn't God stop Adam & Eve from sinning??? Why didn't he stop them from doing a foolish thing??? It was foolish wasn't it? Oh he didn't love those children?? Obviously you can't use your parent little child analogy to try to rescue your doctrine. Small children and full grown adults who are passed the time of accountability are just different. Even most Calvinists know that unless you don't believe babies don't make heaven their home.
But that's not what he does in the way you're saying it. I do acknowledge with no hesitation that God does influence the will in the following
way....through the preaching of the gospel and it's primary message and we see how good and loving God was to send Jesus as our substitute and the knowledge of the goodness of God can lead one to repentance BUT....it's not a guarantee they will. Some knowing the good thing God has done still will turn themselves away from him. They choose to love darkness rather than the light
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atpollard
Well-Known Member
So when you are going about your life with no thought or intention of getting into any relationship with anyone, fully content with that, and then you meet someone and inexplicably fall in love ... are they a horrible, evil monster for forcing you (against your will) to fall in love with them and change the desire of your heart?
(I never thought about either God or my wife as 'evil' until you explained it to me.)
This is a bit of a straw man.
If salvation happens the way you describe, then why doesn't God just irresistibly draw/regenerate/save everyone? And do not give me the bologna of God doing as He pleases or "He'll show mercy to whom who wants to show mercy." God WANTS people saved and if He irresistibly makes them saved then He would save everyone.
We do NOT state thta the lost will ahve no good deeds ever, nor will always be badly acting,but we hold that none who are lost will want/desire to have Jesus save them, as they prefer to earn and work for their own salvation!
If God intended to ahve the deth of jesus being atonement for all sinners, intended to save all, then all would get saved!
Rockson
Active Member
Got to stop you right there. She didn't force you against your will. YOU SAW something MORE desirable than being alone. She wasn't abhorrent to you. You didn't hate her. Your falling in love with her was something you willingly chose to do. You're saying as a Calvinists all sinners hate and despise God! Big difference.
You're saying sinners aren't willingly choosing to fall in love with God because that's impossible. If you're going to say you fell in love with God because you to chose to fine, that's the way it should be. But you still had a choice.
On your wedding day I'm sure you probably said, "I DO"?? Isn't that the purpose of the wedding vows of "I DO" to demonstrate the person is doing this of their own free will volition? You chose to lock into relationship with her. Nobody made the decision for you. You're saying God makes the decisions about everything.
I never said God nor your wife were evil. I'm saying what you're thinking about God is sadly wrong.
Rockson
Active Member
Jesus already talked about the great banquette where many were invited but refused to come. Did he tell his angels to go out their and just drag them in? Lk14:15-24 And if he issued invitations doesn't that tell you he intended for them to attend? Or do you think that God has a party, gives out invitations and people show up and then he says he's changed his mind.
"I am the Lord, I change not..." Mal 3:6
They were not forced in one verse and then forced in another, "
If He irresistibly saves any He would save all.
Your statement expresses your opinion. My opinion, in response, is that God does not make trivial choices. He has no step-children.
no opinions without scripture,
Eph 2:1¶
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Rom 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to beconformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
When did "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, "?
When were you "to beconformed to the image of his Son,"?
notice how one can be called before being justified,?
notice how one is conformed before being called?
The Ones that God invited will be the ones coming in!
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