Romans 9 and Calvinism

[Reformed1689]

As for myself, all I can tell you is that when I first read the words on the page, I didn't need anyone to tell me what they thought they meant...
I already knew what they meant without having to ask someone.
No books about theology were consulted, and no internet searches were made for me to figure it all out;

Exactly. I don't understand why people think those verses are so hard to understand. The plain meaning is well, plain and simple. It is not sugar-coated, people just don't like the reality.

 

[MB]

I can see that to you it is, my friend.

But if you'll notice, at least one person didn't think so, and I know from personal contact both inside and outside this forum that he once believed the whole thing very much the same as you seem to...as did I many years ago.
The difference is, we didn't stop where it seems that you are stopping with God's words...at "point of belief", or the "what" of the whole thing.

Yes, I agree with you that the difference between a saved person and a lost person is that the saved person believes on Christ.
But it's the "why" that catches my attention and that I'm more interested in, and Scripture itself goes on to tell us the "how" and the "why" that anyone believes on Christ during the preaching of His words...

Because of His grace and mercy towards a person that results in the new birth, spiritually, and not because they "willed themselves" to do so from a spiritually dead heart and mind.


As always I wish you well, sir, whether or not we agree.

yes it this is nonsense too
MB

 

[MB]

From your point of view, I imagine that it is twisted, MB.

But I've encouraged you, time and again, to believe the words on the page, no less and no more,
yet it seems that you cannot ( or will not ), for some reason.

God's word doesn't stop at Acts of the Apostles 16:31, MB, but it appears to me that you always do.
That the Philippian jailer came trembling in to the jail cell and asked what he must do to be saved, for example, is not where the Bible, in its entirety, stops.

An example of this is Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ( 3 chapters before ), which plainly tells me why certain Gentiles believed, when all others in the crowd did not...because they were ordained to eternal life.

Frankly, I'm at a loss as to why you keep replying to my posts, and, more importantly, why I keep answering yours...
Hope, I guess, that at some point the words of God will get through to you.

absolute garbage
MB

 

[MB]

From your point of view, I imagine that it is twisted, MB.

But I've encouraged you, time and again, to believe the words on the page, no less and no more,
yet it seems that you cannot ( or will not ), for some reason.

God's word doesn't stop at Acts of the Apostles 16:31, MB, but it appears to me that you always do.
That the Philippian jailer came trembling in to the jail cell and asked what he must do to be saved, for example, is not where the Bible, in its entirety, stops.

An example of this is Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ( 3 chapters before ), which plainly tells me why certain Gentiles believed, when all others in the crowd did not...because they were ordained to eternal life.

Frankly, I'm at a loss as to why you keep replying to my posts, and, more importantly, why I keep answering yours...
Hope, I guess, that at some point the words of God will get through to you.

your avatar is dressed like a Catholic Knight's Templar and you're just as wrong as he was.
MB

 

[thomas15]

I note you provide zero scripture.
thomas15, what does God say?

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." John 3:16-17

 

[Dave G]

If salvation is really truly a free gift then works and behavior really shouldn't matter as it's a free gift from the only being that is able to really keep his promises.

I agree.

That is the question to ponder when considering if Christ died for the ungodly or only the soon to become righteous.

I respect what you're saying, but to me the question to ponder goes far deeper than where it seems you're stopping.

To me, when Romans 5:6 tells me that Christ died for the ungodly, the passage is addressed to those who have believed on Christ.
When it says "when we were without strength", then the "we" are God's elect, not all of mankind.

How does an individual conceived and born in sin, steeped in bad behavior totally corrupt in all things find a teaching in the Bile that states that God so loved only those few select individuals who speak highly of others of the same thinking, that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him, and more important belongs to a special club of life thinking individuals, those shall have everlasting life?

By reading and understanding the words on the page, as the book of letters that is it.

But what I can tell you is, I didn't see it this way overnight...
It took a fair number of years before I began to see it that way.

Again and as in other threads where I've stated this, that is why I encourage all of my brothers and sisters in the Lord to study His words;
Find time to really dig into them daily, and read as much as possible...

The more the better.

 

[Dave G]

I suspect but cannot prove it and really don't feel the need to prove it but I think some here who freely proclaim that "for by grace are you saved through faith, this not of yourselves it is a gift of God, not by works so no man should boast" do not really believe the "it is a gift" part.

I agree.

Having posted here for over 3 years now,
I can tell you in all honesty that there are some who post here that claim that salvation is by grace alone and completely unmerited...
and then appear to turn right around and say that a person's faith or belief is what the Lord regards to determine who to save ( making it merit-based ), or that man's "contribution to the equation" is his or her faith ( again, making it merit-based )...

With the Lord doing all the rest.

To me, that takes the gift of God and puts it squarely in the realm of "reward".

We say, when it is convenient for our personal theology, that God has in the Bible certain precepts which give us a picture into the mind of God, to help us understand things that are not specifically taught in the Scriptures. God tells us somewhere in the bowels of His word that He cause the rain to fall on the just and unjust that he will bless the line of Ishmael although He hates the sin of Ishmael and for that matter the sins of all persons, believers and unbelievers. I think I can say say with a straight face that God loved Esau the man, because he certainly blessed him, and that Jesus died for the sins of Esau without taking the position that Esau and anyone else that isn't washed in the blood of the lamb will certainly see nothing but eternal condemnation. I think I can do that but I don't have an extended brain pan.

I respect your opinion, but I'll have to go with God loving Jacob, and that is why He saved Him,
and God hating Esau and deciding not to save him.

Vessels of wrath ( deserving of wrath ),
Vessels of mercy ( undeserving of mercy ).

Again, Romans 9.

 

[Dave G]

yes it this is nonsense too

absolute garbage

your avatar is dressed like a Catholic Knight's Templar and you're just as wrong as he was.

MB?
If you wish to find things to ridicule me for, that's OK, I will forgive you...
and I promise to be civil towards you and to not make fun of any of your posts, no matter how you personally treat me.

But one thing I'd like you to keep in mind is this:

I hope with all my heart that the Lord has forgiven you for His mercy's sake;
Because if He hasn't, you're going to have explain your behavior to the Lord when you see Him, and it would have been better if a mill stone were hung around your neck and you were dropped into the deepest sea, than to offend one of the little ones which believe in Him ( Matthew 18:1-6, Mark 9:42, Luke 17:1-2 ).

 

[Dave G]

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." John 3:16-17

" And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." ( John 3:14-21 ).

I'm curious, thomas.
What do you see in that passage when you plug John 3:16-17 back into the text and read the whole thing without stopping?

 

[canadyjd]

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." John 3:16-17

The “whosoever” of John 3:16 is directly connected with the previous verses, “the wind blows where it wills…..so is everyone born of the Spirit” which is directly connected to John 1, children “born not of bloods, nor by the will of man, but of God”

peace to you

 

[1689Dave]

Twice a week I attend a program with groups for people with disorders like schizophrenia, where there is one patient who is a Calvinist, from whose mouth comes always the doctrines of Calvinism, referring for proof to verses like those in Romans 9, which reads:



The bolded words are the words that he constantly refers to as proof of Calvinism. What do you think is the correct interpretation of this passage?

Thank you.

Few understand that circumcision made one a member of Israel. Even those in the bloodline of Abraham if not circumcised, God cut off (Genesis 17:14). So when Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross, only the circumcised in heart, that means, only the born-again remained as Israel. This also meant that only those who believed in Christ were Israel. The broken off remained Jews only in their customs but became gentiles even until this day. God also placed them under wrath until the end (1 Thessalonians 2:16.)


For the father's sake, God saved all the born-again Jews and added born-again believing gentiles to them, as Paul says; in this way, all Israel will be saved (Romans 11:26)


Today Biblical Israel is the church 1 Peter 2:9. And the Israelis are gentiles and hate Christ passionately. Although as Paul said, for the father's sake some God will save with other elect gentiles through the new birth, and faith in Christ.

 

[AustinC]

Few understand that circumcision made one a member of Israel. Even those in the bloodline of Abraham if not circumcised, God cut off (Genesis 17:14). So when Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross, only the circumcised in heart, that means, only the born-again remained as Israel. This also meant that only those who believed in Christ were Israel. The broken off remained Jews only in their customs but became gentiles even until this day. God also placed them under wrath until the end (1 Thessalonians 2:16.)


For the father's sake, God saved all the born-again Jews and added born-again believing gentiles to them, as Paul says; in this way, all Israel will be saved (Romans 11:26)


Today Biblical Israel is the church 1 Peter 2:9. And the Israelis are gentiles and hate Christ passionately. Although as Paul said, for the father's sake some God will save with other elect gentiles through the new birth, and faith in Christ.

Romans 2:28-29
For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

Romans 9:6-8
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

 

[Van]

Van, showing once again that he struggles to understand faith.

The faith we are given by God is credited to us by God's grace and the imputed righteousness of Christ. Paul is very judicious in laying this argument out in the letter to the Romans. It is my hope that Van will one day understand this great truth.

Calvinists accept the shoddy and rather unstudied views from the dark ages. Then make generalized statements such as Paul is judicious in Romans.

Romans 5:1-6 demonstrates Calvinism is false...

We gained access by faith into this grace wherein we stand. Thus we were saved by grace "by reason of our faith being credited as righteousness by God, by which we gained access to God's saving grace!!

Once again Calvinism struggles to understand that we access grace by reason of God accepting out faith, then first being accessed by God and given faith is precluded. So simple a child could understand it...

 

[SovereignGrace]

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." John 3:16-17

Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.[1 John 2:15]

 

[SovereignGrace]

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." John 3:16-17

And no Calvinist will disagree with these verses. The non-Calvinist interpretation of them? That’s a whole other matter.

 

[MB]

Romans 2:28-29
For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

Romans 9:6-8
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

One thing for sure Austin you can't claim Isaac's as a relative. This isn't speaking to the pretend or assumed elect but the real thing. Jews.
MB

 

[MB]

And no Calvinist will disagree with these verses. The non-Calvinist interpretation of them? That’s a whole other matter.

You are wrong. they do disagree with the clear meaning of the word "World"Which is totally ignorant of what is being said in the verse.
MB

 

[AustinC]

One thing for sure Austin you can't claim Isaac's as a relative. This isn't speaking to the pretend or assumed elect but the real thing. Jews.
MB

MB, it is noted that no other person agrees with you. Therefore we can conclude you are wrong. But, you can continue to live on the wrong side of all other views as is your custom.

 

[MB]

Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.[1 John 2:15]

Are you saying Jesus doesn't have the Father in Him? This below is what John is writing about.
1Jn 2:16 because all that is in the world—the desire of the flesh, and the desire of the eyes, and the ostentation of the life—is not of
the Father
God Loves the people of the world and He is saying do not love the things of the world.
Context is everything
MB,

 

[AustinC]

Calvinists accept the shoddy and rather unstudied views from the dark ages. Then make generalized statements such as Paul is judicious in Romans.

Romans 5:1-6 demonstrates Calvinism is false...

We gained access by faith into this grace wherein we stand. Thus we were saved by grace "by reason of our faith being credited as righteousness by God, by which we gained access to God's saving grace!!

Once again Calvinism struggles to understand that we access grace by reason of God accepting out faith, then first being accessed by God and given faith is precluded. So simple a child could understand it...

Simply writing the same wrong view over and over again does not make your view correct. Ypu have been corrected by the vast majority here at the BB, yet you persist in bad theology. There is no value in correcting you again as you kick against God's word.