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Sheep or Goat?
- Thread starter Iconoclast
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Seatpost 18 thread is about can a goat become a sheepThank you very much!
Exactly. People are not born good and corrupted by society as political liberals believe. We are all lost until we become saved. John 3:16 says that by friend Whosoever can be saved.
I don't agree with you.
Ok...can you show any verse that teaches a goat turns into a sheep?
I would settle for one verse as I have never seen one say so.
Now if you look and do not see one verse saying that, I am going to suggest that it is not me you disagree with. It is scripture itself that you find fault with.
I have not looked into it very much (you know me, I'm lazy that way
).But does Scripture, pre-Judgment, describe any person (lost or saved) as a "goat"?
The reason I ask is that some conversations seem to be inching very close to what many evangelicals would consider a heresy in viewing two "races" of lost people (along the lines of Daniel Parker). I'm just wondering if the Bible actually makes the difference between "sheep and goats" regarding the lost in this lifetime.
The issue is that if there are no passages referring to the lost as "goats" except in how God separates the nations (like a shepherd separates sheep from goats - sheep on one side, goats on another) at Judgment then it may be pushing the bounds of exegesis and heading towards eisegesis to apply such an application now.
If there are passages that call the lost pre-Judgment as comprised of "sheep" and "goats" then that would be the verses that need to be discussed at this point.
I can find a verse that says that a lost person can be saved:
John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
No. We actually see sheep and goats mentioned in Matthew 25:31-33 which reads, " 31 But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left." While Jesus is speaking of the nations in verse 32, He becomes more specific in verse 34 when he addresses individuals ("those on His right").
church mouse guy, I was led to believe God knows every soul at/from conception, whether sheep or goats.
However, Mathew 7:23 disproves that belief:
Mat 7:23 KJV - And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
I conclude that those He never knew are the goats.
What say you?
Hell was made for Satan and the fallen angels and not for man. However, some people choose hell and a God of Love allows them to choose what they want. Hell was enlarged because of drunkenness once. Isaiah 5:11-14 (KJV) Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, [that] they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, [till] wine inflame them! And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands. Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because [they have] no knowledge: and their honourable men [are] famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst. Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
Is this at Judgment (on "that day" when there are no more "lost sheep") or during this age?
I believe Matthew 25:31-46 is about the judgment, the final judgment before the eternal state.
Well of course you can find a verse that a lost person can be saved.
Jesus came to seek and save His lost sheep.
The OP.was about how someone posted saying a goat can become a sheep.
I know of any such teaching.
Now in John 10:26 Jesus said to those Jews ...YOU believe not You are not my sheep. DO you see what that verse says?
As we are to present gospel truth to all men in a way it does not come into play.I have not looked into it very much (you know me, I'm lazy that way
But does Scripture, pre-Judgment, describe any person (lost or saved) as a "goat"?
The reason I ask is that some conversations seem to be inching very close to what many evangelicals would consider a heresy in viewing two "races" of lost people (along the lines of Daniel Parker). I'm just wondering if the Bible actually makes the difference between "sheep and goats" regarding the lost in this lifetime.
The issue is that if there are no passages referring to the lost as "goats" except in how God separates the nations (like a shepherd separates sheep from goats - sheep on one side, goats on another) at Judgment then it may be pushing the bounds of exegesis and heading towards eisegesis to apply such an application now.
If there are passages that call the lost pre-Judgment as comprised of "sheep" and "goats" then that would be the verses that need to be discussed at this point.
Jesus is saving His sheep, His wheat,His elect.
Now we are not told who they are,but we are told that they exist and those teachings are biblical.
If you ask any Christian what is described by the words,goats,tares,reprobate, they know.
I see this as the Judgment when man are already in a final spiritual state (saved or lost). That is why I question the application of "goats" to a different context.
Matthew 25:41-46 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘ Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
If God uses the imagery of being the Great Shepherd of the sheep,I believe we need to understand what is clearly revealed.Just for laughs shall we point out the hermeneutical absurdity of taking an illustration device from passage and applying it in another passage.
A lost person becomes a saved person when God redeems them.
“Don’t read into ‘rams and he-goats’ (Ezekiel 34:17) the New Testament image of ‘sheep and goats’ as found in Matthew 25:31–46, because in Bible times, it was customary for shepherds to have both sheep and goats in the flocks.” (Wiersbe)
The issue in the passage is that the Shepherds have exploited God's people. God says He is against the Shepherds. Now if we would transfer that device into a passage in the New Testament, we would claim God is also against the good Shepherd. Which of course is as nonsensical as claiming the lost cannot be saved.
Lets see, God does not really desire that all men be saved, nope, only the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Note Matthew 10:6 does not say "His lost sheep." And God's plan was not first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. Nope. John 3:16 does not say everyone believing, it really means only those God enables to believe.
Are the lost ever said to be goats? Nope. Jesus is said to separate the lost from the saved as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
On and on it seems, the bible is misrepresented to push a man-made doctrine.
Are the lost ever said to be goats? Nope. Jesus is said to separate the lost from the saved as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
On and on it seems, the bible is misrepresented to push a man-made doctrine.
So a goat in one passage may not be used as the same image in another passage. Good, you seem to get it.
"Of my sheep" does not equal either "My sheep" or "the sheep."
"Of my sheep" refers to unsaved people who are open and receptive to God"s word.
"My sheep" refers to those who were "of My sheep" that God has transferred into Christ.
"The sheep" usually refers to mankind, as in all have gone astray like sheep without a shepherd.
(Now in John 10:3-4, we see "the sheep" used to refer to those who hear and follow Him, but in the other verses, the sheep refers to all mankind such as in John 10:15.)
There are a few distinctions that probably should be made.
Just as Scripture presents the image of "goats" being separated from "sheep" at the final Judgment, Jesus also explains the tares among the wheat in the same way in Matthew 13.
In both instances the lost are separated from the saved "on that day" and are thrown into the furnace or the lake of fire.But this is a context beyond the present age. There are no "lost sheep" at Judgment. There are only those who are found "in Christ" and those who are "not known" by Him.
I am just not sure it is appropriate to take "tares" and "goats" out of the context Scripture provides and into the present age. If it is, I don't know that we can be dogmatic about it. No one disagrees that those who are lost "on that day" are separated as one would pull out "goats" or as one would throw away "tares".
Just something to consider as I know our goal is to speak as biblically as possible.
The OP. Was focused on are goats made into sheep as a poster had offered.
I believe scripture indicates the sheep were given to Jesus in what is referred to as the Covenant of Redemption. The number of the sheep is eternally fixed.
I can only suppose the poster was trying to avoid this reality with a novelty not found in scripture.
If he or she notices the thread perhaps they could clarify what they meant.
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