Should women work rather than stay home

[Bunyon]

Texassky,

That is one judgemental and presumptive post.

Texas-"Andrea Yates murdered 5 children because ....."--------------------------------------------------

Do you really believe that her dicision to stay at home was what caused her to kill. Or that the only way to stay saine was to go to work.

Texas-"She was a happy, functioning member of society until people convinced her and her spouse that it was "against God's will,"...."---------------------------------------------------------------

You are really saying she did this because someone convinced her to stay home with her children and try to eek out a living on her husbands NASA sallery of 80,000 DOLLARS PER YEAR! I guess if she would have went to work as a clerk for 15,000 per year she, so that she could have bumbed that measely nasa sallery up a bit, she would have remained sane and not killed her children.

Texas-"My sister loves her children dearly, but she is not a "children" kind of person."-----------------------------------------------------------------

Any mother who is not a children kind of person is a person with a emotional and spritiual problems. Your sister is a product of the times, that is all. If our grandmothers were as you say, we would not be here because they would have killed us all, because they were almost all doing the stay at home and raise kids on a single salery thing. And they were earning way less than the Yates even adjusting for inflation.

It is fine for you to work, but if you put your babies in daycare at 6 weeks of age, i'd say you and they lost out.

Quick, all you stay at home moms, get a job before you kill your babies!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And besides the proverbs 31 wife did not work outside the home in the manner we are discussing anyhow. But to each his own.

[ November 13, 2005, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: Bunyon ]

 

[Wife of One]

Oh my ...

 

[PamelaK]

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
My observation is that the Baby Boomer's needed two incomes to live the American dream (buy a house, two cars, vacation in the summer, etc.) whereas their parents in the Great generation only needed one, the father's. Women working has not been to buy luxuries but rather to literally put a roof over their heads and food on the table.

I would disagree with you here. It all depends on your priorities. (I'm not talking about catastrophic situations here; I know those exist.) Why does a roof over your head have to be owned? Why do you need two cars? Why do you need vacations?
I see a dangerous trend today, among young Christian couples. "A", they want everything, and "B", they want it all now. We know many in our church who are engaged or are recently married. Many times they have asked me or my husband how we did it all, and when they hear we rented and did not have our own washer/dryer for the first 8 years of our marriage, and have not always had two vehicles, they look at us like we just landed from Mars. One couple has already bought a home which they will both move into next month after the wedding. They are not even married yet and have already realized they will not be able to afford this house and have the young lady stay home with their children, which is the desire of both of them. Does this make sense?
We do know one young couple in the church who are the only ones who are just married and not owning their own home. They are interested and are looking, but have not been able to because the young man refuses to have his wife's current income considered for the mortgage loan. They want children and want to raise their own children, not mortgage their lives for a home they will not have time to be in anyway because they are both always working. The young man's view is, "If we can never own a home, so be it."
This is a rare attitude these days, but in my opinion, a wise one.

 

[Bunyon]

Today, we suffer from affluenza. We think so many things are essentials when actually very few are. I never got more attention at my former church than when I showed up in a new truck. If I got anything close to that kind of attention from my chuch when my child was born or when I graduated from school etc. I would have been a happy man. But a new car or house, now that was always an attention getter!

 

[Bunyon]

Texas-"Andrea Yates murdered 5 children because she and her family thought the Godly thing to do was stay at home with her kids, and do without financially"-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Originally posted by TexasSky:


Andrea Yates murdered 5 children because she and her family thought the Godly thing to do was stay at home with her kids, and do without financially.

Surely this cannot be taken seriously. She killed her children because she was a stay at home mom?!?!?!

 

[TexasSky]

Not because she was a stay at home mother - - because she received so much pressure from people who were judging her for working, and who were pressuring her to stay home that she literally collapsed under the strain.

Don't you remember the headlines during that trial?

1) She was an apparently normal, well adjusted person for the first years of her marriage.
2) She had some post-natal depression, but nothing serious.
3) She and her husband joined a fundamentalist group that set unrealistic expectations upon them.
4) The fundamentalist group stated that it was wrong for her to use birth control. The group also stated it was wrong for her to work.
5) She and her husband gave up their comfortable home and moved into a cheap trailer with all of their children so they could survive without two incomes.
6) She began to suffer from major depression. She hated being at home. She felt like a failure as a wife and mother because she hated it.
7) She began to see herself and her children as "evil" and as "unable to please God."
8) She killed her children so they wouldn't grow up to be "evil like me."

ANYONE who pressured that woman to live according to their unrealistic standards shares guilt in the deaths of those children.

 

[TexasSky]

There is also a simple fact.

In Paul's day there were no "ovens and cook stoves that just required turning a knob".

There were no grocery stores where you hopped in the car, grabbed a gallon of milk, a loaf of bread, and a nice pre-skinned/de-boned chicken.

You ground your wheat.
You spun your thread, and then wove your fabric and then cut and sewed it by hand.
You made your bread by hand.
You wrung the chicken's neck, plucked its feathers, and cooked it.
You didn't have a washer and dyer either.
Or a dishwasher.

All cleaning was done with your own two hands.

The women in Christ's day who did not stay home, had families that didn't eat.

This isn't true today.

 

[Bunyon]

Texas, My memory is she had a history of mental illness that did not just start with her staying home. She was fine when she was on her medicne, but I think I remember that she was not taking it like she should when she was staying home. But if she could not handel staying home with her kids, how in the world do you expect she could handel a career and taking care of her kids. That kind of double duty takes a stronger and more adjusted person, such as yourself, not a less strong and less well adjusted person. I just don't think you can blame it on staying at home. And I think that displays a attitude towards stay at home moms on your part. Your previous post seem to place stay at home moms in a less favorable light than working moms. One thing you fail to regonize is there is just as much bias in the other direction too. Since, working Moms outnumber stay at homes by a wide margin, I think they experience more judgment and pressure from working moms, than working moms do form them. I think you have displayed some of that here.

I have no intrest in scrutinizing individual families discisions because there are alway exceptions to any rule and I am not in any other family but my own, but It is clear to me that the modern phenomenon of two career families has, in general, been detrimental to the family.

 

[Bunyon]

"and who were pressuring her to stay home that she literally collapsed under the strain......."

And she would not have colapsed if she had to maintain a career AND raise her kids at the same time. That just does not make since. Some of the working moms have written post that make working and raising kids sound like exquisite stress.

 

[Bunyon]

Texas,

I read up on the story. It is clear that the religious influences did not cause her mental illness. It started just after the birth of their first son, before the religious influence you mentioned started, and she had a family history of mental illness. In short, this happened because of mental illness. I do believe the religious influences caused pressure for her, but the stay at home mom part really has nothing to do with it, and I am stunned that you would introduce this line of thought into this discussion.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Spiritual pressure + mental illness =

a) 5 dead kids
b) extranged, bitter children
c) a or b depending on the circumstances

Let me speak from the voice of experience. Mental problems all by themselves can cause an otherwise loving normal person to do things not nice to even their children. Add to that a certain fear that the Lord is unhappy with you, or that if you don't do things a specific way (or if your children don't) your children will go to hell......You tell me, which would be preferable, dead kids now with their souls in heaven, or live kids now destined to hell for eternity?

All my life I was told I was going to hell for one reason or another. It wasn't the truth(and I knew it) but my(mentally ill, stay at home) mother believed it. There were many, many things she did while my father was at work that were off the wall, abusive and once even directly lifethreatening. Since my father didn't see them(because he was working multiple jobs to support us because he also thought God's best was for Mother to stay at home with us) he often didn't believe what my brother and I told him. Even if he did, he usually told us that Mother was sick and we should forgive her because God tells us to honor our mothers. He mostly didn't see the worst of it cause she was careful enough to do that while he was away(the night she subtly threatened my life and then mocked me when I tried to protect myself he was working a 24 hour shift as a fireman).

I survived by the grace of God.

My dad found out how bad she was after my brother and I were married. Not because he ever believed what we told him, but because once we were gone she had no one but him to abuse. During one of her more diffult to deal with episodes she threatened to shoot him with the very same gun she had threatened me with.

I remained estranged from the both for years and now will not leave my children in their care unsupervised. I can't take the chance that my Dad will excuse Mother's behaviour like he did when I was a kid. Forgivness on my part is also by the grace of God. I couldn't/wouldn't have without Him.

My brother disowned both of my parents because of Mother's continued bad behaviour that culminated in a 15 minute rant against my sister in law, when in reality Mother was mad at me.(because I once again refused to leave my children in their care)

In all of this we were told that we were the ones God's wrath would be upon because we didn't believe/act/do what Mother thought God was telling her/dad we should do.

If both my parents had worked, perhaps my father would have been home enough to get an idea of just how bad Mother was and my childhood might not have been so miserable.

 

[Bunyon]

"If both my parents had worked, perhaps my father would have been home enough to get an idea of just how bad Mother was and my childhood might not have been so miserable. "---------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps, but none of this justifies the inference that staying at home is a contributer to mental illness and murder. It is just unfortunant that we had to go there.

But I can relate to your story. It is simular to mine but without the religious abuse, my mom was agnostic. But I know my mom's staying at home had nothing to do with it.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Perhaps, but none of this justifies the inference that staying at home is a contributer to mental illness and murder. It is just unfortunant that we had to go there.

Maybe not generally, but in specific cases, such as the Yates case, it most certainly can be.

It's fine to say that "God's best" is two parent homes with stay at home mothers. It's fine even to believe it (I do btw), however it is not fine to assume that this is in actuality going to work in our imperfect world and demand that everyone follow our perspective and make everyone for whom this hasn't worked out feel like less than Christians.

It kills me when I get a whiff of "if you only did things the way I do, God would bless" like God won't bless if you don't! Man, if I heard that once growing up I heard it a million times and not even from my crazy mother. My dad was the one who spouted that. He just couldn't get over the blessings God gave my brother(very well off financially) because my brother didn't do things the way my dad does.

My own blessings(and I'm not poor) evidently come from the fact that I haven't completely disowned my parents and I'm generally a good girl(this from my father and I'm 41).

This "you have to do it my way, for it to be God's best" atttitude is what I've gotten from Glory to God's posts. This makes me feel like she thinks I'm less of a Christian because I simply don't feel that everyone must believe it and I am a stay at home mother. That's what's best for me at present. It hasn't always been that way. I didn't get to stay home until the birth of my second. We simply couldn't afford it before then. And if for some reason I had to go back to work, I'd do it in a heart beat, knowing that if it wasn't God's will, He'd change the circumstances if I gave him the chance. God looks at our hearts, not at our job situation.

 

[bapmom]

I can't believe that this is being thought of by otherwise sane-thinking individuals!

Ladies! From what I remember hearing, Andrea Yates had a problem which became worse PARTIALLY because of postpartum depression! DEPRESSION people.....and wasn't it some you talking like this now that were so worked up awhile back (understandably, btw) at some discussions she felt were unfeeling towards DEPRESSED people?

I even remember them talking about suing her OB/GYN because he didn't recognize the symptoms of her depression! She had a 6-month-old.......she was still being influenced by that. And SOMETIMES postpartum depression, when not treated right, gets WORSE with each successive child. Im thankful to tell you that MINE got better with each one. But, Yates' condition was also exasperated by a pre-existing mental condition that she wasn't taking her medication for!

Her "religious pressure" really had nothing to do with it. And for you guys to continue to even GO here in this discussion I think is......how can I say it nicely?

Reprehensible perhaps?

menageriekeeper....I cannot tell you how sorry I am that you had such an experience. I am so impressed that you have been able to forgive your parents, and yet you still have the sense to not leave your children in their care unsupervised. Yet you do it without bitterness. Truly, I am being sincere.

But come on, don't equate your mother's problems with her staying at home. I seriously doubt that it would have made any difference if your mother HAD worked outside the home, except to MAYBE make it worse for you since she would have been under double the pressure. That being said, perhaps in your one instance you would have found a refuge of sorts in a daycare....but perhaps you would have been in a daycare that didn't give a rip what was happening at your house.

As others have said, we need to stop using anecdotal examples to try to prove our points in here. This is a GENERAL discussion, not one in which we can judge each and every person's individual experiences or cases.

Lets get away from throwing things around like...stay at home moms are more likely to be abusive!

We could give you examples of ladies who worked that did just as bad things to their kids....

Susan Smith was a single mom, so obviously she worked outside her home. She killed her kids because she thought it was what would get her boyfriend to marry her.

Can't remember the lady's name, but how about the one who was the subject of "Mommy Dearest." She was a movie star....obviously worked outside the home there, too.

Its just not fair, and it gets people like me....who have tried to be detached from this discussion....to get all riled up.

 

[Bunyon]

With all due respect, manaeriekeeper, I wonder if their is a little guilt involved here, because I don't think she (glory to god) was really that way.
If you had to work, you had to work. I am cool with it, God is cool with it, and I bet Glory to God is to, in fact she made that clarification in one post. I believe, generally speaking, that the current situation where we have two working parents in most situations and we send our kids to daycare at 6 weeks is very unfortunant. But I am aware that people like you really did have to go to work even if that is not what you wanted, so I don't take that general attitued and apply it to individual cases. But I think that most people who have to careers homes do it for the wrong reasons. I don't think anyone person should take that personally.

But let me turn it around on you. How do you think the average stay at home mom would feel about a post that equates Yate's staying at home with multimurder?

You know it sucks having a childhood like we did, dosen't it. I know you, like me, are doing your best to ensure your children don't have to feel the way we did

I have never left my kids in my parents care either, would have been nice to have loving parents who I could have relyed on that way though.

 

[TexasSky]

Bunyon,

I live in Texas and we got extensive news of coverage of the Andrea Yates case here that the rest of the nation didn't carry.

From an article in "Crime and Punishment" called "Profile of Andrea Yates" the following statements are taken.

"Andrea (Kennedy) Yates was born on July 2, 1964 in Houston, Tex. She graduated from Milby High School in Houston in 1982. She was the class valedictorian, captain of the swim team and an officer in the National Honor Society. She completed a two-year pre-nursing program at the University of Houston and then graduated in 1986 from the University of Texas School of Nursing in Houston. She worked as a registered nurse at the University of Texas M.D. Anderson Cancer Center from 1986 until 1994."

Sounds normal.

In reference to her husband the article says "They were married on April 17, 1993. They shared with their guests that they planned on having as many children as nature provided."

Again - no sign of illness.

Now notice when friends begin to notice something is wrong.

"Friends say that she became reclusive. The decision to home-school the children seemed to feed her isolation."

Now, this article does not say why Rusty decided to "live light," but other articles indicate that Rusty made the decision based on religious beliefs that all his money belonged to the church, not to he and Andrea.

The next year. Rusty decided to purchase a 350-square-foot, renovated bus which became their permanent home. Luke was born bringing the number of children to four. Living conditions were cramped and Andrea's insanity began to surface.

And the article specifically says: Michael Woroniecki was a traveling minister from whom Rusty purchased their bus and whose religious views had influenced both Rusty and Andrea. Rusty only agreed with some of Woroniecki's ideas but Andrea embraced the extremist sermons. He preached, "the role of women is derived from the sin of Eve and that bad mothers who are going to hell create bad children who will go to hell." Andrea was so totally captivated by Woroniecki that Rusty and Andrea's family grew concerned.

Her first suicide attempt was in 1999. AFTER the purchase of the bus from Woroniecki, after the preaching from Woroniecki that her children would end up in hell because of her.

She was hospitalized after that attempt. They let her go home. At home she refused to take the pills, began to "self mutilate" and refused to feed her children.

She threatened to kill herself again that same year. She was hospitalized again.

The family pressured her husband to get her a normal house. He did. She improved. The doctors told them, "don't have more children." She got pregnant again.

It says that in 2000 she began to "frantically read the bible," stopped talking, refused liquids, mutilated herself and refused to feed the new baby.

When she killed her children and confessed to the murder she specifically said that it was because she was a bad mother and didn't want her children to go to hell because of her, and that she needed to be punished for not being a good Christian.

 

[bapmom]

If all this that you just posted is true (I dont doubt your veracity, Im just skeptical about media

) then her "religious issues" were due to something that sounds more like a cult. And prior mental illness often manifests itself in religious obsessions.
But you gals were sort of making it sound like you were talking about a mainstream, common viewpoint that its better for the woman to stay home and take care of the children that God has given her.
This is very different than the teachings you have just described.

 

[TexasSky]

Bunyon and others -

I am NOT saying that "being a stay at home mother makes people insane."

Again - I wish I COULD have been one.

What I am saying is - do NOT put pressure on women who feel that they cannot and should not be "stay at home mothers" to become stay at home mothers. THAT can be terrible for mother and child.

I have amazing friends who are stay-at-home mothers that I love with all my heart. They are wonderful women, wonderful mothers.

I know a woman though who frightens me. She was widowed early and decided that her husband died because God was punishing her for things she did prior to knowing Christ. She remarried and she decided to home school her kids. One day she came to Sunday School and announced that she was never going to allow her daughter to date, that she would arrange her marriage because that was how the bible wants it done. She began to pull her daughter out of all social activity in the community, and then out of all church social activity, stating that the church was "liberal."

Eventually one of the deacons went to her new husband and said, "You have to do something. You have GOT to MAKE your wife socialize more with Christians outside her own head."

Her husband, thankfully, saw that she was on a very dangerous path. She had become totally reclusive, she decided whatever she thought the bible said was what it really said and was getting no outside training or outside Christian fellowship. Her daughter was beginning to talk about running away from home.

Was she mentally ill?
I suspect so.

Was pressure for her to become more and more reclusive the right move for anyone to make in that regards? No.

God encourages fellowship.

Again, my point is not to attack Stay at Home Mothers. I admire them.

My point is to tell people that they MUST not tell women they HAVE to be stay at home mothers.

The fact is, the bible does NOT say, "You must be a stay-at-home-mother."

It does say that women who "wander from house to house; not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not," are wrong. (I Timothy 5:13)

It says that to prevent this kind of behavior young widows should remarry, bear children, guide the house, and give no one reason to speak ill of them.

Now - in that age. You couldn't be a mother and wife and be idle. In our day and age you definately can be.

If you are a stay-at-home Mom with too much free time, do church work. (Most do.)

If you are a stay-at-home Mom with too much free time on your hands and don't do church work - what ARE you doing with the free time?

If you are like most stay-at-home Moms, you're probably doing about 90% of the church work, and I commend you.

Don't know the women who are NOT working though or you violate 1 Timothy by being "a busybody".

 

[TexasSky]

Bapmom,

There are so many reports of Andrea Yates' life from various sources that agree that I believe it is accurate.

I agree that it was cult like. It is a cult in fact. A cult that the Baptist church welcomed into sanctuaries all over the USA. For a long time Michael Woronecki was a VERY popular speaker in Baptist Churches all over the country. Churches hired him to speak to youth groups. He claims to have been a former Satanist Priest turned Christian.

As to the belief being "odd." I agree, it isn't what the SBC teaches - however - the teachings are becoming more popular in fundamental Baptist circles.

The risk is getting higher too. In the past if a woman was a risk to her children, the public schools could catch it. If not, then their husbands or their extended family caught it.

Today - the husbands are working extra hours so they don't see it. The extended families don't live in the area - so they don't see it. The children are home-schooled so the public doesn't see it.

If a dangerous mother becomes reclusive, and home schools and quietly drops out of church - who notices?