OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Very sad that the Holy Spirit doesn't teach you the truth about John 5:28, 29 which teaches a general resurrection and judgment! Or is you simply won't put a dot beside that Scripture!
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The Context of the Parenthesis Church
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Very sad that the Holy Spirit doesn't teach you the truth about John 5:28, 29 which teaches a general resurrection and judgment! Or is you simply won't put a dot beside that Scripture!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You are shuffling your feet. Answer the question:
If a price was paid someone had to receive the payment. Name that person!
Quote me saying this.
The answer has already been given...
...my hasty and haughty friend.
Of course. God is Sovereign.
Doesn't negate the fact that we clearly see Him, through the events of the Tribulation...assert full control over the current creation:
Revelation 11:15-19
King James Version (KJV)
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Revelation 12:9-12
King James Version (KJV)
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
God bless.
Right. The Holy Spirit has led you to remove from Scripture the other two resurrections besides the First Resurrection (which you ignore) and the thousand year period He mentions six times.
And it is not the Holy Spirit that keeps you from answering one simple question: how many resurrections in Revelation?
There are three, yet you somehow only see one.
God bless.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
As you do the following:
John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Here is another example of payment:
Revelation 18:5-7
King James Version (KJV)
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
Also something that is a consistent theme in Scripture:
Isaiah 47:7-9
King James Version (KJV)
7 And thou saidst, I shall be a lady for ever: so that thou didst not lay these things to thy heart, neither didst remember the latter end of it.
8 Therefore hear now this, thou that art given to pleasures, that dwellest carelessly, that sayest in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me; I shall not sit as a widow, neither shall I know the loss of children:
9 But these two things shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments.
And perfectly within a Tribulation framework:
Matthew 24:37-39
King James Version (KJV)
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
If you would actually study the Bible rather than Church Fathers...you might begin to see the big picture, and refrain from questions like these.
God bless.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You still will not answer the question but are throwing up a smoke screen. Is that smoke coming from the rapid shuffling of your feet.
If the Great Tribulation is payment for the redemption of the earth, as you and rm claim, to whom is the payment made. It really is a simple question so answer it. Someone had to receive that payment. Name that person!
I have not neglected to account for this resurrection:
Revelation 20:12-15
King James Version (KJV)
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Now the resurrections you flee from and cannot speak about and reject:
Revelation 11:7-12
King James Version (KJV)
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Revelation 20
King James Version (KJV)
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
And clearly none of these three resurrection meet the criteria for the Rapture.
This is Scripture you take away from the Word of God to contrive and perpetuate a doctrine of men.
God bless.
First, I never said the Tribulation was "payment for the redemption of the earth," it is simply a matter that God exacts vengeance on those who's wages are given to in the Tribulation.
Secondly, your deflection will likely go unnoticed by those who have to support your weak teachings which ignore much of Scripture. You are a one verse pony, my friend, and your exclusion of Scripture is quite evident.
Lastly, I will ask for some honesty among the a-mils and those sitting on the fence: do you agree with BR that the question has not been answered.
He has asked "who gets paid?" and the answer has been supplied.
Is there even one among you that will be honest enough to point out that the question has been answered?
God bless.
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He taught me what it means and the only general resurrection is that of the unbeliever at the end of the 1000 reign. Where every unbeliever who has ever lived will face the Great White throne judgment. After they are sentenced for their unbelief the New Heaven and New earth are ushered in.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
We see Ephesians 4:8-10,
8 "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)"
Coupled with,
1 Peter 3:18-20,
18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."
Seems quite evident that He did preach to all in the graves. When did this occur, well He was in the Grave 3 days and 3 nights, and He did tell the thief today you will be with me in Paradise, that fits perfectly with John 5:28 "...the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice."
Every person in the grave heard His voice.
Then we see verses 29 "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
They shall come forth when He comes, they that have done good or bad, first the believers as ween in 2 Corinthians 5:9-11,
9 "Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences."
Seems we will face the BEMA (judgment) seat as believers, that is not seen anywhere in the book of Revelation. In fact the only thing we see in Revelation concerning rewards as seen in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15,
11 "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
Nowhere is the BEMA seat seen but we see one thing that could be our key, the 24 elders are wearing Crowns and seated upon thrones. They are dressed in fine linen clean and white, which is what Jesus said those who overcome would be wearing.
We don't see this term again until the marriage of the Bride, who is said to have prepared herself "And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."
Revelation 19:8 and 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."
Where was she preparing herself, as was the Jewish marriage tradition shows at the Grooms home during the week.
Then the second part of John 5:29 "...they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation"
We see Revelation 20:5-7A,
5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired,..."
A distinct general resurrection of the unbelieving the dead, for as Believers we are not dead, we were made alive in Christ and no longer dead in Trespasses and sin.
We see what happens at this resurrection Revelation 20:11-15,
11 "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Notice it doesn't say they face the "Judgment (BEMA) seat) but they face the Great White throne judgment.
Two separate Judgments two separate Resurrections. The first for the Bride, the Church at the beginning of the Tribulation and concluding at the 2nd coming for the Tribulation saints and Old Testament Saints.
The second resurrection of the rest of the dead at the end of the 1000 years. Thus fulfilling John 5:28-19.
Greetings brother,
Though some believers see the Bema and Great white throne as one and the same (judgment to both believers and unbelievers) other scripture says this in support of your exegesis:
1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
HankD
Who received the price for the blood of Jesus? Believers receive the benefits of the Payment but we aren't the one who the payment was due.
Who placed the curse upon creation? For He is the one who requires redemption for all that was cursed. Therefore as the O.T. Kinsman redeemer had to reclaim first the person who was in Bondage and then the property so too is our Kinsman redeemer meeting the terms of the Redemption of the earth.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Just name the person to whom payment was made!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I don't know who BR is but the question has not been answered.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Don't blame me if Revelation is beyond your ability to comprehend!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You simply ignore it. You certainly have not accounted for it. The Revelation of GOD is to be taken in its entirety, not splintered as you people do!
The same person who received the payment for our sins. The same one which Revelation says His wrath is coming upon the earth. If you can't answer who received the payment for mankind's sins then you can't answer who will receive the payment for the redemption of the entire creation.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You are dancing around, shuffling your feet but you will not name a person. Saying it is the same person who received payment for our sins is not an answer because there are different views on that!
By what you say we can take this without going to the real story in Genesis not splinter then, Hebrews 11:7 "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."
God commanded Noah to build an Ark and he did. He prepared an Ark and put His house on it: the world was condemned, we know you believe it was just that region, but this say the world was condemned so we need to take it that way. No animal life was saved nothing but Noah, because we can't go back to Genesis to get the full story that would be splintering God's word, wouldn't it?
You mean you think I'm doing what Jesus did when He asked by what authority He had done something and He asked the leaders of Israel one question, was John's Baptism of God or another and they wouldn't answer.
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