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The Five Solas

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MB

Well-Known Member
I realize that you're replying to atpollard,
but I'd like to take this occasion to make my own reply, since you keep bringing up this idea of believing Gentiles not being elect...
which, if true, also means that they are not justified, either, according to Romans 8:33,
and that Romans 8:1-39 does not apply to Gentile believers at all.

Or does it?:Sneaky

In my opinion, we've covered this many times, MB.
I can show you at least 3 passages where Gentiles are elect / chosen, and are addressed as such.

1) Ephesians 1:4-5 ( chosen = elect ), and they are addressed as Gentiles in Ephesians 3:1.
2) Romans 8:28-30 ( foreknown, predestinated, called, justified and glorified ), Romans 8:33, and they are addressed as Gentiles in Romans 11:13.
3) Titus, a Greek ( See Galatians 2:3 ) addressed by Paul according to the faith of God's elect.

So, the next time you state that no Gentile believer is elect, please don't say I didn't show you Scriptures, MB.

Shall we go over the Scriptures again?
I'll be more than happy to show you where I get my "assumptions", and you can tell me if I'm reading and understanding what the words on the page actually say.

Let's start with Acts of the Apostles 13:48.
As before, please tell me what this states, at face value, if it doesn't say what I think that it does:

" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Question A:
How many believed Paul's preaching in the crowd?
Answer A:
As many as were ordained to eternal life.

Question B:
How many did not believe?
Answer B:
As many as were not ordained to eternal life.

If you disagree with my view of this passage,
then please offer something definitive and that takes into account every word on the page.

What do you see when you read it, if I may ask?
Actually Acts 13:48 was written like this as in the YLT.
Act 13:48 And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe—as many as were appointed to life age-during;
Things are some times lost in translation.
MB
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
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Actually Acts 13:48 was written like this as in the YLT.
Act 13:48 And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe—as many as were appointed to life age-during;
Things are some times lost in translation.
MB

As many as were appointed to eternal life believed, period. What is it that you're imagining was lost in the translation?
 

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
As many as were appointed to eternal life believed, period. What is it that you're imagining was lost in the translation?
Romans 16:13
Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.

Salute (put your name here) chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.

Also Paul's mother is mentioned here, and seems she was a believer.


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
 

kyredneck

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Romans 16:13
Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.

Salute (put your name here) chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.

Also Paul's mother is mentioned here, and seems she was a believer.


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


??? ...whoosh....right over my head. Sorry, I've totally missed your point. :D
 

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
??? ...whoosh....right over my head. Sorry, I've totally missed your point. :D
Simply that, to be appointed to eternal life, would have meant to be chosen in Him.
As in all those chosen in Him from before the foundation of the earth, will be appointed to eternal life and so then when Christ is preached to them n this life in God's perfect timing for them, they will believe.
 

kyredneck

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As in all those chosen in Him from before the foundation of the earth, will be appointed to eternal life and so then when Christ is preached to them n this life in God's perfect timing for them, they will believe.

Acts 13:48 reiterates Jn 1:12-13 (and other passages):

12 but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God -- to those believing in his name,
13 who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten. Jn 1 YLT
 

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Acts 13:48 reiterates Jn 1:12-13 (and other passages):

12 but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God -- to those believing in his name,
13 who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten. Jn 1 YLT
Another one here is 1 John 5:1

ESV version, Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

KJV Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

NKJV Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.

You believe because God regenerated you. (born you of Himself, so that your His newborn babe, so then a member of the family of God, so then by your new nature of one spirit with Him)

I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.
 
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kyredneck

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You believe because God regenerated you. (born you of Himself, so that your His newborn babe, so then a member of the family of God, so then by your new nature of one spirit with Him)

Amen!

7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above; Jn 3

14 and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them, because spiritually they are discerned; 1 Cor 2
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
You have lost sight of the meaning of Sola Fide and the error it was fighting to correct. At the core is the question “Does God MAKE you righteous or IMPUTE righteousness to you?” ...


Sola Fide

Often referred to as “the material cause” of the Reformation, the doctrine of justification sola fide (by faith alone) was a key point of debate between the Protestant Reformers and the Roman Catholic Church in the sixteenth century, and it has remained a point of disagreement ever since. Martin Luther and his followers expressed the importance of the doctrine of justification by faith alone by teaching that it is “the article by which the church stands or falls.” Was Luther correct in affirming the central importance of this doctrine? In order to answer this question, we must grasp the meaning of justification itself as well as the differences between the Protestant and Roman Catholic doctrines.

The Roman Catholic doctrine of justification is most clearly expressed in the Decree Concerning Justification produced in the Sixth Session of the Council of Trent in 1547. According to this Decree, fallen human beings are “made just” through the “laver of regeneration.” In short, the instrumental cause of justification (being made just) is baptism. Justification is said to involve remission of sins and “also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man.” Justification is not by faith alone, according to the Council of Trent, because hope and charity (i.e. love) must be added.

The Reformers rejected the ideas that justification means “making just” by a faith that is not alone and that it is accomplished through the instrument of baptism. But why? In order to answer that question, we must have some understanding of the basic issues underlying the debate. The first point to observe is that God is absolutely just and righteous, and He will judge the world in righteousness. So, what is the problem with this? The problem is that although God is perfectly just and righteous, we are not. We are fallen, sinful, unjust, and unrighteous creatures (Rom. 3:9–18). This raises an infinitely serious question for each of us: How can I, an unjust sinner, stand before our infinitely righteous and holy God at the final judgment?

Rome offered one answer. In order for a person to be declared righteous by God, he or she first has to be made righteous by God. As we saw above, justification for Rome means to be “made just.” The following is something of an oversimplification of a much more complicated doctrine, but at its heart, the Roman doctrine of justification includes the idea of sanctification and renewal. The grounds of justification, the basis upon which the declaration of righteousness is made, therefore, is an infused righteousness. It is a grace that is infused, or poured, into our souls. If a person cooperates with this infused grace, he or she is renewed and sanctified. The person cooperating with grace, therefore, has an inherent righteousness. One can lose this state of grace through mortal sin. However, if this happens, the sacrament of penance is a means by which a person can be restored to a state of justification.

According to the Reformers there were serious problems with the Roman doctrine. In the first place, the standard of God’s judgment is absolutely perfect righteousness (Matt. 5:48). He cannot require less without denying Himself and His own holiness. A person cannot be declared righteous and survive the judgment of God, therefore, on the grounds of anything less than perfection. Since the fall of Adam and Eve, however, only one man has ever lived a life of perfect righteousness, and that One is Jesus Christ (Heb. 4:15). The Reformers argued, therefore, in opposition to Rome’s idea of infusion for a doctrine of double imputation. To impute something means to reckon it legally. The doctrine of double imputation means that our sin is imputed to Christ and His righteousness is imputed to us (2 Cor. 5:21).

It is also important to note here that for Rome, justification is by faith, but it is not by faith alone. For Rome, faith is necessary, but faith is not sufficient. Recall that for Rome, the instrumental cause of justification is baptism. The Reformers argued, on the contrary, that the sole instrument of justification is faith, and that even this faith is a gift of God. It is by grace (Rom. 3:28; 5:1; Eph. 2:8).

The Reformed doctrine of justification is clearly expressed in the classic Reformed confessions and catechisms of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. The Westminster Larger Catechism, for example, provides a concise statement of the biblical doctrine:

Question 70: What is justification?
Answer: Justification is an act of God’s free grace unto sinners, in which he pardons all their sins, accepts and accounts their persons righteous in his sight; not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them, but only for the perfect obedience and full satisfaction of Christ, by God imputed to them, and received by faith alone.
 

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Jesus tells us of His other sheep, who when hearing His voice will join the flock along with them.
Jesus says these others are His sheep but they have not yet heard Hs voice, but they will, and they will believe.
These other sheep are His sheep and have not yet believed in Him as they have not yet heard His voice, but they will, Christ said HE MUST BRING THEM ALSO.

Who is it that gives to Christ His children?, it is GOD the Father who gives to Christ His family.

John 10:15-17
New King James Version
15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.

Hebrews 2:13
And again: “I will put My trust in Him.” And again: “Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”
 

kyredneck

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You have lost sight of the meaning of Sola Fide and the error it was fighting to correct.

No, I understand perfectly well what the Reformers were trying to correct, it was the very same struggle Paul had with the religion of the Jews, but, Paul emphasized justification by faith in contrast to justification through works of the law, NOT justification by faith alone in contrast to justification through works of the law, The Reformers went too far.

All you need to do to correct yourself is to cease adding that one little word 'alone' to the gospel. Don't be a parrot of error, exercise your right to private judgment.
 

kyredneck

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@atpollard

...my favorite 'Reformer':

"The Bible is a plain book. It is intelligible by the people. And they have the right, and are bound to read and interpret it for themselves; so that their faith may rest on the testimony of the Scriptures, and not on that of the Church. Such is the doctrine of Protestants on this subject.

It is not denied that the Scriptures contain many things hard to be understood; that they require diligent study; that all men need the guidance of the Holy Spirit in order to right knowledge and true faith. But it is maintained that in all things necessary to salvation they are sufficiently plain to be understood even by the unlearned.

It is not denied that the people, learned and unlearned, in order to the proper understanding of the Scriptures, should not only compare Scripture with Scripture, and avail themselves of all the means in their power to aid them in their search after the truth, but they should also pay the greatest deference to the faith of the Church. If the Scriptures be a plain book, and the Spirit performs the functions of a teacher to all the children of God, it follows inevitably that they must agree in all essential matters in their interpretation of the Bible. And from that fact it follows that for an individual Christian to dissent from the faith of the universal Church (i.e., the body of true believers), is tantamount to dissenting from the Scriptures themselves.

What Protestants deny on this subject is, that Christ has appointed any officer, or class of officers, in his Church to whose interpretation of the Scriptures the people are bound to submit as of final authority. What they affirm is that He has made it obligatory upon every man to search the Scriptures for himself, and determine on his own discretion what they require him to believe and to do......"

Perspicuity of the Scriptures. The Right of Private Judgment | Monergism
 

MB

Well-Known Member
As many as were appointed to eternal life believed, period. What is it that you're imagining was lost in the translation?
What is lost in acts:13:48.It was misinterpreted. The YLT below and also Greens interlinear.
Act 13:48 And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe—as many as were appointed to life age-during;
Simply put they were appointed to eternal life after they believed.
MB
 

utilyan

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You’d be hard pressed to find the word, TRINITY in the Bible, yet it its pages you must come to the conclusion that the TRINITY is a Scriptural doctrine.

So too, Sola Scriptura.

Rob
Two wrongs don't make a right. My belief of trinity doesn't hang on scripture.
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
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That is a serious claim.

What do you think James is talking about in James 2 and how does that reconcile with Ephesians 2?
How is a man justified before God?

If you seriously believe that Luther was wrong on Justification by faith alone and not by works, then you agree with the Catholic Church that opposed him that Faith alone could not save a man. They added the Sacraments as a necessary work of obedience for a man to be saved. What do you add as a required work of man to be saved?
We Catholics don't care where works does or does not work to "salvation" because we are not obsessed with Salvation.

THE GOOD WORK and the ONLY GOOD WORK is Loving God and Neighbor.

What reward, what heaven, what salvation, what gift is greater than LOVING GOD?

All we Catholics are saying is who tricked you to look away from the bigger picture from what is most important?


Go on and tell me what is more rewarding than Loving God? What takes a HIGHER PRIORITY?
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Go on and tell me what is more rewarding than Loving God? What takes a HIGHER PRIORITY?
Honoring God as God and not seeking to share in the GLORY that belongs to HIM alone. (see Proverbs 9:10, Proverbs 15:33, Proverbs 16:6, Isaiah 11:3)
 

Yeshua1

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Wrong:

but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; who will render to every man according to his works: Ro 2:5,6

We're ALL going to be judged by our works:

4 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;
36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Mt 25

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Mt 25
Saved judged by their good works for eternal rewards, or loss of them, while lost judged by them for degree of hell....
 
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