The Peace Of God That Passes All Understanding

[Helen]

Depression is a type of emotional pain. It is just as real and has just as many causes as physical pain does.

I might also add that one can be terribly depressed and yet still have, underneath it all, peace from God that healing will come and this part of life will end. One can be terribly depressed and still be able to see a little above and beyond to know that Jesus is still here, still loving, and always the healer.

That was the way I was when my husband of 20 years left -- looking up at worms' bellies emotionally. I cried myself to sleep for a year. If it had not been for the children, I would not have gotten out of bed some days.

And yet, from the very beginning, I knew God was still in control, even if I didn't understand a thing that was happening. As my life spun out of control in my eyes, I knew it was not out of control in His, and that knowledge gave me a peace below the pain.

But it didn't stop the pain.

That had to be walked through. Friends walked me through. Christ walked me through. My children walked me through. And I them. I did have some sleeping pills for awhile. I needed them to keep going as a Mom.

Just a bit of "been there done that" .

Want some Bible verses? Here are some I clung to:

The Lord will fight for you; you need only to be still (Exodus 14:14)

Be still, and know that I am God.

I will never leave you nor forsake you.

Come to me, all ye that burden and are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest...

I identified so strongly with some of the Psalms:

Psalm 5:
Give ear to my words, O Lord,
consider my sighing.
Listen to my cry for help,
my King and my God,
for to you I pray.
In the morning, O Lord, you hear my voice;
In the morning I lay my requests before you
and wait in expectation.

Psalm 6:
Be merciful to me, Lord, for I am faint;
O Lord, heal me, for my bones are in agony.
My soul is in anguish.
How long, O Lord, how long?

...I am worn out from groaning;
all night long I flood my bed with weeping
and drench my couch with tears.
My eyes grow weak with sorrow...

Psalm 22
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent...

Did David undergo depression?
Yes.
But he was a man after God's heart.

Did Jeremiah undergo depression?
Yes. He was known, in fact, as the weeping prophet.
But he was God's voice to Israel at that time.

Depression does not indicate a lack of faith. It indicates deep emotional pain.

Remember how Jesus asked the man "do you want to be healed?" There is a truth there, too. Some people are more than happy being sick, either physically or emotionally all the time. But the vast majority of us are not like that. And so when emotional pain hits, we slog our way through it, weeping, until the sun comes out again. And God bless the dear friends who do not judge us but walk with us through those dark, muddy waters.

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by kate B...007:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Kate,

You quoted doctors, I quoted the Word of God.

I have also quoted scripture and you refuse to acknowledge it. </font>[/QUOTE]

That is simply not true.

Originally posted by kate B...007:
Once again I challenge you if you do not believe doctors and medical science why do you do yourself and your children a disservice by using doctors and the medical knowledge you condemn? Please answer, as if I really expect you too, you never have.

The Bible implicates that going to a doctor for physical ailments is acceptable.

I don't take my kids to psychologists for the same reason I don't teach them evolution. Once science steps over the line and teaches things contrary to the Word of God, then I no longer find them credible. You do realize that most scientists will tell you that you evolved from an ape right? Why not believe that too? We don't believe it because the Bible tells us otherwise, and I believe ALL of the Bible.

~Lorelei

 

[rlvaughn]

Originally posted by kate B...007:
And yet you deny me this very same right...

NO, far from it. You are posting in all of these topics and expressing your opinion. So are the people who disagree with you. The people disagreeing with you are not denying you any right. They are expressing the fact that they think you are wrong. That is two different things. And to reply specifically to your statement, "yet you deny me this very same right," I remind you of what I actually said:

If you do not feel there is a contradiction between the science of mental illnesses and the Bible, then fine. But don't judge others as being inconsistent when they do feel there are problems between these truths.

Perhaps you are confusing what someone else said with what I said.

[ March 02, 2003, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]

 

[rlvaughn]

Originally posted by kate B...007:
I was the very first person to post on this topic, but my post does not exsist. Why? What happened to it? Wasn't it just a few weeks ago some tried to say there was no censorship on the BB.

Kate, I don't think there is any conspiracy to censor your posts, and I think you may have this topic confused with another one. There was one that I noticed started by Mark Osgatharp (last night I think) and you were the first one who responded to it. I looked for it this morning and the entire topic (not just your post) does not exist any longer.

 

[Lorelei]

Helen,

I don't argue that people in the Bible were not depressed, I argue that they didn't need anything other than God to cure them.

Please show me where any of them were freed from their depression outside of the grace of God. Did they go to a therapist? A doctor? Did they take drugs? Or did they learn to lean on God even more than before?

I also do not consider every emotion "depression". We can be sad, such as when a loved one dies, or we can feel pain over something that has happened to us or someone we love, but that should never turn to "hopelessness" or "despair" for God is always in control. You can be sad and still believe and trust in God, but you can not be depressed and be doing the same. Depression does not occur over night and it never occurs for no reason. When we continue to focus on the sadness or the pain then we begin to become depressed. We MUST learn to focus on God through the struggles, not on the struggles themselves. There is a big difference. Depression is not defined as sadness, but extreme sadness, it is not defines as sad, but as hopelessness.

Everyone is so quick to say I don't know what I am talking about, when in fact I DO know the peace that I have received in the midst of everything I have been through. I have not always felt the peace, but before, I never really leaned on God. I thought I did, but until I HAD to, I never really comprehended His power to overcome.

~Lorelei

[ March 02, 2003, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

 

[rlvaughn]

Originally posted by kate B...007:
And yet you deny me this very same right. Thats what these two topics on depression are all about.

No, these topics on depression are not, nor have they ever been, about denying you of any of your rights. As best I can tell, they have been a discussion between opposing viewpoints as to what are the cause(s) and cure(s) of depression.

 

[Helen]

For those who think that the Bible does not consider physical/chemical help for depression, please consider Proverbs 31:6-7

Give beer to those who are perishing,
wine to those who are in anguish;
let them drink and forget their poverty
and remember their misery no more.

Not a favorite verse for many Baptists, I know, but there it is.

For those who prefer -- for a short time -- what a doctor prescribes rather than wine or beer, I don't see a problem. If alcoholic beverages ever had a purpose in their existence as far as God was concerned, it just might well be for depression rather than beach parties...

 

[C.S. Murphy]

I just woke up to find that I have been blessed to receive this thread in the fundamental forum Now as Lorelai has asked I am wondering why it was moved here( I am certain I
mispelled you name, sorry P.S. thanks for the nice picture of you and your baby)Since it is here now please continue the discussion but let's all be nice to one another. If we cannot discuss without calling names then let's not discuss. As granny always told me if you can't say something good don't say anything Now I haven't had time to read all 6 pages but I will be involved from this point on so happy posting.
Murph

 

[ByGrace]

Lorelei says:

"Please show me where any of them were freed from their depression outside of the grace of God. Did they go to a therapist? A doctor? Did they take drugs? Or did they learn to lean on God even more than before?"

Please show me in the Word where it says NOT to take medication for for depression. How do you know that they didn't also go to doctors or take medication? Just because it doesn't spell it out for you doesn't mean it never happened. God gave us brains to reason with. Before pharmaceutical companies, people used herbal remedies, i.e. St. John's Wort.

Lorelei says:

"How many people who read these threads may be dealing with alcoholism. Should we not tell them that the Bible says not to be drunk? How many people may be lairs? Should we not share that God wants us to speak truth?"

I believe that the Bible says to "speak the truth in love," not condemnation. The Bible also says, "If I speak with tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. . .now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love."

In His love,
Grace

 

[ByGrace]

Helen says:

For those who prefer -- for a short time -- what a doctor prescribes rather than wine or beer, I don't see a problem. If alcoholic beverages ever had a purpose in their existence as far as God was concerned, it just might well be for depression rather than beach parties...

And now that I think about it you don't see too many depressed people at beach parties....LOL

I like your sense of humor.

Grace

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
I will be involved from this point on so happy posting. [/QB]

Hi Murph;

I am glad to see a moderator here! Three of these threads have been shut down in the last two weeks, (I think this is a GOOD thing). Every time a thread is shut down, someone else opens a new thread, with a new title, but it is still about depression!

There is no such thing as 'happy posting' when it comes to this topic. And I don't think there are any comments left to be made, or scriptures left to be quoted that have not been made and quoted over and over and over and over.

We have one side telling people who have been or are depressed that they have a 'lack of faith' in God because they seek, (or have been advised by a medical doctor), to use both medicine AND God's Word to become healed.

On the other side, we have people who have been or are depressed trying to defend the fact that they are using both medicine AND God's Word to become healed and that does not constitute a 'lack of faith' in God.

It should be titled the "Never Ending Debate" because that is what it has become.

People who are dealing with depression, or any number of other mental, nervous, or emotional problems, are getting hurt by these threads. They have been condemned, called names, told they are in rebellion against God, do not trust God, do not believe God's Word, are living a life full of sin, etc.

The two sides will never agree; but unlike other debates; people are being hurt even more emotionally, spiritually and physically with this one. How is that helping ANYONE?

I wish someone could show me how these threads are edifying to God OR man. I'm sure Satan is having a field day. He is the 'prince of the power of the air'; he is in control of threads like this and he is certainly using them to spread discord among the brethern.

This will be my last post on this thread. I refuse to put God in a box and tell Him how, or what, to use to heal me. I leave it in His hands and we both do fine. I am moving on to a more edifying thread. This one has run it's course...

GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL

Blessings on His people who are suffering.
Sue

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by kate B...007:
Some poeple are so closed minded they don't want to let God out of the box they stuck Him in. I've used scripture, medical proofs, nothing changes the mind of someone whose hardened their heart against God's people.

Why is it us that are closeminded? You have used all of these things in a questionable or refutable manner. No one here on our side is putting God in a box. We are willing to let God handle problems the way he said to handle. It is you who have put God in a box by insisting that pills and therapy must be used to solve problems. God never said that; God gave ways to solve those problems.

There is no self-righteousness here from our side. You seem bent out of shape because someone dares to tell the truth about this. In the words of Paul, Have we become your enemy because we tell you the truth??

Depression is about the way we think. That is the bottom line. Our thought processes can be affected by things around, things in us, or things with little seeming relevance or great impact. But it is about the way we think and Scripture gives very clear commands regarding what we are to do with our thoughts.

The most caring and compassionate thing you can do is turn people to God's word. It is only there that we are promised a transformed life.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
people are being hurt even more emotionally, spiritually and physically with this one. How is that helping ANYONE?

Have you stopped to think that this hurt is coming because some are denying these people true hope?? The problem with your perspective is that you have assumed you are right and everyone else is wrong. Therefore, anyone who dares to give a view of Scripture that differs from you is automatically bringing hurt. I assure you this is not the case. There would be no hurt here if people were not being told that they have no hope apart from expensive therapy and medication. The hurt comes when people are not told the truth.

My point is, that while you and I will disagree on this, you cannot assume the your position without proving it. And it most certainly has not been proven, either here or in the real world.

I wish someone could show me how these threads are edifying to God OR man.

God is edified by our side because he is being held up as the answer to the problems that men and women are facing in this issue. Man is being edified because he/she is being shown that there is hope for those who are willing to pursue it.

GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL

On this we agree, and it is the very truth that God used to get me through the hardest and darkest days in my life without any therapy or drugs. His word was the medicine for my soul.

 

[Helen]

Depression is about the way we think. That is the bottom line. Our thought processes can be affected by things around, things in us, or things with little seeming relevance or great impact. But it is about the way we think and Scripture gives very clear commands regarding what we are to do with our thoughts.


I respectfully disagree, Larry. Depression is sometimes caused by the way we think, but what depression is, is the pain of the soul in the same way cuts and scrapes and breaks are pain of the body. Some people have an incredible physical pain threshhold and can go to the dentist and have teeth drilled and just sit still and not wince even. I am awed by them. I am NOT one of them!

And some people can get a grip on their emotional pain and focus, perhaps, on something else and just tough it out. I am willing to bet that the vast majority of these are men, by the way, because you guys have this incredible ability to focus on one thing and shut out everything else. That is probably a great help in dealing with emotional pain.

But some people are not like that. And some depressions are not caused by thinking the wrong way.

Kate has dealt with some physical causes and she is very aware of them. I am the same way. It was not thinking wrong that plunged me into a post-natal depression for a couple of days. It was not thinking wrong that caused me to react to certain local anesthetics and medications with deep depression for a couple of days after. And it was the opposite of thinking wrong that caused the year-long depression when my husband left me. Why was it the opposite? Because that depression was the result of having loved, trusted, believed in, worked for, invested in a marriage he walked out on. It was the result of loving and caring, actually. If I had not cared, it would not have mattered less to me!

Does God heal? Of course He does! Is He the only one who can heal completely? Absolutely!

But just as we give pain-killers for awhile for harsh physical pain, while the healing is taking place, so sometimes help is needed for harsh emotional pain while the healing is taking place. It is not a reflection on the person. It is not denying anyone hope. It is not denying Christ or the Gospel. It is helping the person get through the worst of the pain and still function. It should be short term, and the problems that arise when medication goes past that are the same problems that arise when physical pain killers are abused. But that does not deny their help.

Add them to the Gospel when needed. I know that there was once not even morphine could deaden the pain I had after one surgery. I woke up from pain and passed out from pain for two days, or three -- I honestly can't remember. But I remember just surviving from minute to minute because of physical pain. And, quite honestly, when people read the Bible to me, I couldn't even hear it, really, let alone pay attention. My full and entire concentration was surviving the pain.

Emotional pain can also be like that.

That time after surgery in the hospital, what helped the most was just someone being there and sometimes holding my hand. That was all. That was enormous for me. It was also all I could handle.

Sometimes emotional pain can be like that.

Depression is emotional pain. Think of it that way and understand some people have a higher pain threshhold than others. It don't know if that is good or bad, it's just the way it is.

Sometimes, what needs to be done first is just survival.

It's sort of along the lines of
Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, 'Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,' but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?

That clothing and daily bread, emotionally, can translate into time with the person. Just be there. After the worst is receding, the Gospel will be welcomed from a person who has been there and hung in there with the damaged person. Healing will be welcomed from the Savior. But it is very possible that survival had to come first -- and, just like physically, sometimes medications can help during the worst of the times.

No one is denying the Gospel.

But two points are vital for the edification of the saints here:

1. Not all depression is the result of sin, especially the sin of thinking the wrong way. Emotional pain, which is what depression is, can have any number of causes.

2. Short-term medications through the initial severe phase can be of great help -- sometimes just so that time can be inserted between the cause and the present.

And then, always, Christ. But don't expect the person on the emotional stretcher to be able to get up and walk to Jesus. We sometimes have to carry them -- in love and prayer and lack of judgment. Only Christ knows their hearts. We have no right to lay the kind of judgment on them that some are seeming to indulge in here.

If some of you can get through a major time of depression without help, God bless you. Some of us couldn't. That does NOT mean psychiatric evaluation or any of that -- I am speaking here of short-term direct chemical intervention in the form of anti-depressant drugs or, as in my case, a few nights' worth of sleeping pills (as lack of sleep makes everything worse).

There is a purpose for these threads. Look at the pain of those who are begging for understanding. Give it to them, please. Offer the love of Christ to hurting people, don't just throw Christ AT them.

 

[Thankful]

I want to address a few things that have been
said in this thread:

The thread that I started that is now closed as it
should be was intended for information concerning
the fact that the Baptist General Convention of
Oklahoma recognized that there was a problem with
depression in staff members and were providing
counseling through the cooperative program. In
no way was it supposed turn into a debate about
depression. If there was a debate, it should
have been about the cooperative program spending
money.

Mark:


But medication will not cure the underlying cause of
depression which is lack of faith in God.
It doesn't matter what issues one is depressed over,
the fact still remains that the depression comes from
trouble in the mind.

What I am saying is that depression is always a state
of mind brought on by unbelief and the resultant
disobedience to God.

You will note that Mark is saying that it is caused by lack of faith in God.

By Grace:

While some depression may indeed have its roots
in willful disobedience and lack of faith. . .ther
is also a physical reason (caused by a chemical
imbalance in the brain) in many instances.
To lump everyone who is depressed together,
and label them lacking in faith, etc., is a terribly
uncompassionate, insensitive, and erroneous assumption
to make.

You will note that ByGrace is saying that it may be
lack of faith, but not always.

Dr. Bob:

Depression can have any number of physical causes
that have NOTHING to do with one's spiritual condition.

Thank you Dr. Bob. Those who are suffering from this kind
of depression will appreciate this statement.

Pastor Larry:

It is you who have put God in a box by insisting that
pills and therapy must be used to solve problems. God
never said that; God gave ways to solve those problems.

Pastor Larry, I don't believe that anyone here is advocating
that pills and therapy MUST be used to solve problems, but may
be necessary.

Now to set the record straight, to my knowledge I have never
suffered from depression that would require treatment.
I have been depressed, yes and I have turned to God for my
strength. I think we all agree on this.

But I do know that sometimes it is necessary for people
to be treated for depression by a professional and these
people are faithful, trusting Christians, who believe the word
of God with all their hearts.

Just last week, I learned that I had a B-12 deficiency and
that B-12 deficiency if not treated can lead to depression.

I do hope that we can stop this debate because it is very
hurtful to people who are struggling with depression. I am not
saying that it is anyone's fault that it is hurtful. Let's
put an end to this discussion.

Just last week a young woman told me that she had prayed
prayed and prayed that God would take away her depression..
That she trusted that He would. She felt that the Lord
led her to her doctor(family doctor). He prescibed medicine
and now she is fine and serving our Lord with Joy and
thanksgiving.

 

[Thankful]

There is a purpose for these threads. Look at the pain of those who are begging for understanding. Give it to them, please. Offer the love of Christ to hurting people, don't just throw Christ AT them.

Amen, Helen.

We must love one another and try to understand their pain.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Helen,

I appreciate your comments. Please allow me to clarify mine. My specific wording was "Depression is about the way we think." I tried to clarify that a number of factors can cause depression, not all of them simply our thought process. However, someone who thinks right thoughts will never be depressed.

Their thought process maybe affected by things such as thyroid, hormonal imbalance, etc. And I believe it is a worthy issue of debate whether or not these "require" medical treatment or whether there is safer and more biblical ways to solve it.

So I do not mean to say that all depression is caused by the way we think. While that case can be made, I believe, that was not my point. I was addressing the broader issue that depression is about the way we think, no matter what the cause of that thinking process is.

Perhaps a small distinction, but a valid one nonetheless.

I also agree that we should not "throw Christ at them." I have not seen that spirit here from anyone. I would urge again, don't let the direct talk and the nature of a text based forum make us read things into posts that aren't there.

Someone above brought up a B12 deficiency, which is a prime case of a medical problem that can be tested and treated appropriately. But consider the problem of someone who is depressed over a job situation, a family struggle, or "life in general." These two things should be treated very differently. To treat the first with a vitamin supplement, and to try to find out why B12 is deficient is a worthy cause. To treat the second with an isotropic drug is completely illegitimate. If I am upset about my job, that is an issue of believing that God is in control, even over my job. If I am worried about finances, "Does not your heavenly Father know that have need of all these things, oh ye of little faith?" The master counselor told us how to address problems of anxiety. Should we not trust that he, the creator of the soul, knows what he is talking about?

I just think we need to make some vital distinctions between medicine and thought, the body and the mind. When these distinctions are made, then this problem becomes much more crystallized for us.

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Helen:
We have no right to lay the kind of judgment on them that some are seeming to indulge in here.

Since when is trying to seek the answers in God's Word casting judgment? I am simply revealing what the Word of God has said about this subject. I see no evidence that God thinks that depression is physical, but rather it is something we can control.

We are not told to seek a doctor when anxious, we are simply told NOT to be anxious. The Bible says this, not me. I simply point this out and suddenly I am being judgmental.

The Bible says we have hope, peace and joy. I showed several verses, to which I am being judgmental by suggesting that they have relevance to ALL of us.

How come we can not discuss the Bible on this issue? When we show what it says, suddenly, many people become defensive. Sorry, I will continue to state what the Bible has to say, if it offends someone that is not my problem. We are told to preach the word, even when it is not in season to do so.

As for the verse in Proverbs. You failed to mention that those insructions were not for everyone. Kings were NOT to use wine. Kings were to be responsible. It told us that if the Kings drank wine they would forget the law and pervert their judgment. Surely you don't suggest that we are allowed to remain in a mind set that will cause us to forget God's law and pervert our judgment. Let's keep it in context.

We must also remember that in the Old Testament folks were under the law and the Spirit of God dwelled in the temple, not in their bodies. We have the Spirit of God within us and we are told that the fruit of that Spirit consists of Joy, love and peace. We are told to walk in that same Spirit or we will show fruit that is not of that Spirit. No where in the NT is anyone told to seek wine for depression. In fact they are instructed on how to avoid such feelings. We are instructed on how to have emotions that are opposite from depression. Was it judgmental of Paul to suggest such a thing?

Paul does tell us that he felt despair, but it was to show him that he needed to lean on God not himself. If we are going through any struggle, we need to learn that same lesson.

2 Cor 1:8-11
8 We do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about the hardships we suffered in the province of Asia. We were under great pressure, far beyond our ability to endure, so that we despaired even of life. 9 Indeed, in our hearts we felt the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead. 10 He has delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us. On him we have set our hope that he will continue to deliver us,
NIV

The Bible never suggests that these feelings of depression are diseases. Let us not fall prey to the mind set of this world that we are not repsonsible for our actions or our emotions. Let us not forget that these same conditions you are condoning are being used to get away with things like murder. Those hormones you tell me I can't control, are being blamed for the death of children. Those emotions you say we can't control are being used to excuse murder, rape, incest, drunkeness and many other things that we know are not optional. If we can NOT commit murder, then we must realize that God made it possible for us NOT to commit murder. If we are NOT to worry, then we must realize that God made it possible for us NOT to worry. There are some things that we are responsible for and our emotions are one of them.

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by ByGrace:
Please show me in the Word where it says NOT to take medication for for depression. How do you know that they didn't also go to doctors or take medication?

Do you really think anti-drepressants and psychology were around when the Bible was written? Do you honestly believe that they thought depression was caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain? Did they even know how the brain worked?

Secondly, I know this because the Bible tells me how not to be depressed and that answer is not found at a Doctor's office but in God who offers peace. Read Philippians chapter 4, read the psalms, the answer was always found in God and as David said in God alone.


Lorelei says:

Originally posted by ByGrace:
I believe that the Bible says to "speak the truth in love," not condemnation.

I think it is your opinion that I have not spoken the truth in love. Sometimes the truth just hurts. It also says that love rejoices in the truth. In fact if we water down the truth then we are not showing real love.

Paul called the Galatians "foolish", was he unloving to do so? Sometimes we have to tell it like it is.

I ask again, can we stick to discussing the topics and stop judging the motives of other people?

~Lorelei

 

[Thankful]

If I am upset about my job, that is an issue of believing that God is in control, even over my job. If I am worried about finances, "Does not your heavenly Father know that have need of all these things, oh ye of little faith?" The master counselor told us how to address problems of anxiety. Should we not trust that he, the creator of the soul, knows what he is talking about?

We are not told to seek a doctor when anxious, we are simply told NOT to be anxious. The Bible says this, not me. I simply point this out and suddenly I am being judgmental.

When did this thread take a turn from discussing depression and the treatment there of and to anxiety or worry?

To me these are two different problems.

I used to be a worrier. (I was not depressed) I worried about everything. Did it accomplish anything? NO. I turned to God for my strength and gave him all my cares and concerns. He takes care of me and I do not have to worry or be concern.