The Sabbath was not Changed

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The Holy Spirit is essential for worship and He chose to come on the first day of the week worship service in Acts 2:1. Again Pentecost is set up like the 50th year jubilee. The 50th year jubilee occurs on the FIRST YEAR of the week of years after 7 REGULAR Sabbath years or seventh year of the week of year sabbaths.

The first day of the week is the worship day in Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2; Rev. 1:10. 1 Cor. 16:1-2 refers to the first day of the week as a GENERAL REFERENCE POINTfor the Corinthians as the day when they meet just as in Acts 20:7.

Your Biblical gynastics to deny these things simply will not work.

MY, <Biblical gynastics>? I wasn’t too bad a ‘gymnast’, when I was young. At 45 still could do grand circles and somersaults on the floor. [Very male chauvinistic with no feminist airs.] Never thought I could be considered a <Biblical gynast> …

If my ability <to deny these things> attest to my proficiency as a ‘Biblical gymnast’, then I really feel proud of myself. No thankful for a plain “thus it is written … not, proud of myself, definitely, NO!

In Acts 20:7 “the First Day of the week” is NOT the worship day. The Perfect Participle ‘sunehgmenohn humohn’ DICTATES “The disciples having been assembling together BEFORE for to Eat the Lord’s Supper, on the First Day of the week having been assembling together STILL, Paul discussed matters with them …” Sabbath’s Lord Supper is presupposed.

In 1Corinthians 15-16, Paul wrote his sermon as if he was preaching. And like everywhere he proclaimed the Gospel of Christ he would close his sermon ---e.g., as per 15:58.
Then before the congregation would disperse, Paul would make announcements concerning urgent matters and inform the congregations on his plans for the future – exactly as recorded in chapter 16. Therefore, in chapter 16, Paul tells the believers how they must plan and save up for future collection of charity for the victims of the famine in Judea. He told the Congregations after the Sabbath services, “On the First Day of the week, let everyone of you by himself put aside in store …”. Sabbath’s worship hour is presupposed.

It is amazing you dare contradict so directly the detail contained in 15:58 to 16:3. It is wholly unfounded your claim, <<1 Cor. 16:1-2 refers to the first day of the week as a GENERAL REFERENCE POINT for the Corinthians as the day when they meet just as in Acts 20:7.>>

Shame on you! For Paul ordered “Upon the First Day of the week [NOT on the Sabbath Day!] let EVERYONE of you by HIMSELF, STORE, as God give prosperity. That there won’t be ingathering (only) when I will come … I will SEND to bring your liberality.”
All as it were from the pulpit on Sabbath Day announced “concerning the collection” on an UNKNOWN FUTURE date, for which every individual at his own house had to work out his own prosperity and accordingly had to store his contribution in readiness for when Paul’s delegates may arrive to collect everyone’s at his own home. NO Sunday service charity collection is supposed; it’s a complete untruth and a shame for the hawkers in its wares.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

You have completely avoided the most important question. Bob, I'm asking YOU. What is YOUR perspective on the purpose of following The Law. Why are YOU so inclined to obey the 4th commandment so ademently? What benefit is it TO YOU, BobRyan? Do you feel that you will not be saved if you do not follow the commandments? Do you feel that your salvation is effected in any way if you do not follow the commandments?

Based on your comments, it seems you are indicating that you gain your salvation through faith, but then you can lose your salvation if you do not obey The Law and The Commandments. Is this an accurate summery of your position?

If I may intrude …

The impression I as an 'out-stander' get from this challenge to poor old Bob, is that it is no challenge to him as Guppie wants him to believe.

My impression is Gup is in conversation with himself; and if not with himself, in conversation between himself and supposedly God.

Well, my advice to you Gup?

Wait for resurrection day.

I personally would not wait for judgment day; that is far too risky. Especially with so much unequivocal affirmative witness in favour of the "Sabbath Day's Rest still valid for the People of God SINCE JESUS GAVE THEM REST"!

You are of the People of God, aren't you, Gup?

.

 

[Gup20]

If I may intrude …

The impression I as an 'out-stander' get from this challenge to poor old Bob, is that it is no challenge to him as Guppie wants him to believe.

My impression is Gup is in conversation with himself; and if not with himself, in conversation between himself and supposedly God.

Well, my advice to you Gup?

Wait for resurrection day.

I personally would not wait for judgment day; that is far too risky. Especially with so much unequivocal affirmative witness in favour of the "Sabbath Day's Rest still valid for the People of God SINCE JESUS GAVE THEM REST"!

You are of the People of God, aren't you, Gup?

.

I don't mind the intrusion. The question is so that BobRyan can rationally consider his motivation for performing works of The Law. Since he agrees with me that no one is saved by works of the law, then it is inconsistent and irrational for him to fear that he should lose his salvation through failing to perform works of the law.

If his motivation for following the 4th commandment and observing sabbaths is to avoid damnation, I would say he's missing the mark. Salvation and justification are an inheritance for those who qualify as sons of God through faith in Jesus Christ. Since it is an inheritance, it is not something that can be gained or lost by our works. God promised Abraham that all of his spiritual descendants would inherit this promise.

However, if his motivation for keeping the sabbath day is his love for God, and the things of God I would let him be, albeit with an encouragement not to inflict that on others.

Col 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—
17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.​

I'm not exactly sure what "people of God" are. Is there a scripture that uses that phrase? I am a child of God - a joint heir with a Christ.... a believer in the gospel of Jesus Christ - the spiritual seed of Abraham... these are Biblical terms that I can affirm.

 

[The Biblicist]

MY, <Biblical gynastics>? I wasn’t too bad a ‘gymnast’, when I was young. At 45 still could do grand circles and somersaults on the floor. [Very male chauvinistic with no feminist airs.] Never thought I could be considered a <Biblical gynast> …

If my ability <to deny these things> attest to my proficiency as a ‘Biblical gymnast’, then I really feel proud of myself. No thankful for a plain “thus it is written … not, proud of myself, definitely, NO!

Well, can't help but like you GE but your Sabbath position is simply wrong. Traos like Corinth was a predominantly Gentile church and "evening" was Roman reckoning of Sunday evening rather than the Jewish reckoning. They had been gathered since Sunday Morning and continued right on into the evening and did not leave until Monday morning. Sunday morning they gathered for the Lord's Supper and continued meeting throughout the day as the Lord's Day or the day of worship.

Neither was the first epistle of Corinthians or the Second written to be a sermon with closing remarks. It was a letter that addressed specific problems and offerings for the poor in Jerualem was one of them. Paul merely declared the regular day of worship when they gathered together as in Acts 20:7 to be also the day offerings were brought into the "store" house.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
The moral law of God is not a means of earning our way to heaven - it does not matter if you are talking about Lev 19:18 Deut 6:5 or Exodus 20:8-11.

I feel that God said to NT saints that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19 and in Rev 14:12 the saints are those who keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus".

I feel that Paul said "do we then nullify the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31

If keeping the law is not a means of earning salvation, then why is keeping the law what matters? What does it matter for? Is there something better than salvation?...

So let me ask another way - since you and I agree that you cannot earn salvation by works, it is only by faith - what benefit is works? Since the law has no effect on salvation by faith (though faith certainly has a huge impact on The Law) what purpose and effect does following The Law and the commandments have in the life of the Christian?

And obviously - my answer was (and still is)

1Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" - is a statement of Paul as inspired by God.

1John 2:
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.


John says -
Rev 22:
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.(KJV)

Christ said

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


Exodus 20
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

John 14
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.


1 John 5
2 By this
we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rev 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

1 Cor 7:19 .. "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

You have completely avoided the most important question.

How so?

You asked and I gave you my response - showing that it fits perfectly with scripture.

Bob, I'm asking YOU. What is YOUR perspective on the purpose of following The Law. Why are YOU so inclined to obey the 4th commandment

Yes - "that was ME posting" that response. Spot on.

I thought you were up on that.

Or do you hold to some sort of implied doctrine that our reasons for obeying God cannot possibly be what is written in scripture on that point??

If so - I have never seen you post that sort of idea before.

Do you feel that you will not be saved if you do not follow the commandments? Do you feel that your salvation is effected in any way if you do not follow the commandments?

Have you read 1John 2:3-6 lately??

1Cor 6 starting with Paul's "Do not be deceivied" comment??

1John 3 starting with John's "do not be deceived" comment??

Based on your comments, it seems you are indicating that you gain your salvation through faith, but then you can lose your salvation if you do not obey The Law and The Commandments. Is this an accurate summery of your position?

I am not a Calvinist so - no man-made tradition about OSAS here.

I prefer to accept what the Bible says - in places like Matt 18 warning us about "Forgiveness revoked".

In Romans 11 telling those who "Stand only by our faith" to fear - "for if He did not spare them - He will not spare you either"

1Cor 9 "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the GOSPEL to others I MYSELF should be disqualified" for it is the goal of Paul in that case to be a "Fellow PARTAKER in the Gospel"

I prefer to take heed when the Bible warns us about "falling from Grace" and being "Severed from Christ" Gal 5:4.

I prefer to listen when the Bible warns us that those who ARE Severed from Christ are then "gathered into bundle to be burned" John 15:1-11.

In my view - accept the Bible is better than clinging to a man-made-tradition about OSAS not matter what the Bible says to the contrary.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

You're welcome to worship on whatever day you like, but if you still see a day of the week as the Sabbath, then you've missed the point of the Sabbath.

Ok Here what God actually said -

Ex 20
8 ""Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 "" Sixdays you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
11 "" For in six days the LORD made theheavens and the earth, the sea and allthat is in them, and rested on the seventh day;therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day andmade it holy.


Is it your claim that God simply slipped up by inserting all that "day of the week" language in the commandment?


Is this a further failure on God's part - to point out a specific day of the week?



[FONT=&quot]Ex 16[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
23 then he said to them, ""This is what the LORD meant: [/FONT]Tomorrow is the Sabbath observance, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over put aside to be kept until morning.''
24 So they put it aside until morning, as Moses had ordered, and it did not become foul nor was there any worm in it.
25 Moses said, ""Eat it today, for today is a Sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field.
26 "" Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.''
27 It came about on the seventh day that some of the people went out to gather, but they found none.



Would it be better to reach for man-made-tradition instead?

The Baptist Confession of Faith - section 19 points to the Gen 2:3 command - given to Adam and Eve - before the fall - as the 4th Commandment - within the TEN Commandments.

Did God simply get that wrong in His Gen 2:3 statement?


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

This one too:

Mat 12:3 But He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he became hungry, he and his companions,
4 how he entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat nor for those with him, but for the priests alone?
5 "Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?
6 "But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.
7 "But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent.
8 "For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."​

Matt 5:17-20 Christ confirms that He has not come to trash his Word - His Law - His Exodus 20 commandments.

Your own reference above - points to the fact that from the days of Sinai on the priests were working on Sabbath and that in the context of the Sabbath - it was proper for them to do so.

The idea that the work of the priests at Sinai - was a hint to Israel to go around breaking the Sabbath would be an extreme eisegetical insert.

Even the Westminster Confession of Faith does not allow it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

Ok Here what God actually said -

Ex 20
8 ""Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 "" Sixdays you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
11 "" For in six days the LORD made theheavens and the earth, the sea and allthat is in them, and rested on the seventh day;therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day andmade it holy.


Is it your claim that God simply slipped up by inserting all that "day of the week" language in the commandment?

No slip up at all but clearly intentionally because if he had added "of the week" then he would have violated His own law in applying it to other days of the week in Levitius 23 and to the first day of the week in the New Testament. So, no slip up but clear intent to provide a PRINCIPLE that can be EQUALLY applied to other days of the week by arbitrary choice - divine choice.

Is this a further failure on God's part - to point out a specific day of the week?



[FONT=&quot]Ex 16[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
23 then he said to them, ""This is what the LORD meant: [/FONT]Tomorrow is the Sabbath observance, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over put aside to be kept until morning.''
24 So they put it aside until morning, as Moses had ordered, and it did not become foul nor was there any worm in it.
25 Moses said, ""Eat it today, for today is a Sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field.
26 "" Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.''
27 It came about on the seventh day that some of the people went out to gather, but they found none.

No slip up at all. Here the PRINCIPLE is APPLIED to a specific day of the week just as the same PRINICIPLE is APPLIED to other days of the week in Leviticus 23 and to the resurrection day in Psalm 118:24/Acts 4:10-11.

The Baptist Confession of Faith - section 19 points to the Gen 2:3 command - given to Adam and Eve - before the fall - as the 4th Commandment - within the TEN Commandments.

Did God simply get that wrong in His Gen 2:3 statement?

No, He provided a PRINCIPLE with APPLICATION - period However, the PRINCIPLE is sufficient broad for DIFFERENT APPLICATIONS and the proof is Leviticus 23,25; Psa. 118:24 and Rev. 1:10.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I don't mind the intrusion. The question is so that BobRyan can rationally consider his motivation for performing works of The Law. Since he agrees with me that no one is saved by works of the law, then it is inconsistent and irrational for him to fear that he should lose his salvation through failing to perform works of the law.

If his motivation for following the 4th commandment and observing sabbaths is to avoid damnation, I would say he's missing the mark. Salvation and justification are an inheritance for those who qualify as sons of God through faith in Jesus Christ. Since it is an inheritance, it is not something that can be gained or lost by our works. God promised Abraham that all of his spiritual descendants would inherit this promise.

However, if his motivation for keeping the sabbath day is his love for God, and the things of God I would let him be, albeit with an encouragement not to inflict that on others.

I do not say Bob Ryan is not wrong; but I am sure he is not so unintelligent as to think or teach or believe whatever you have said or have tried to say here.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

No slip up at all. Here the PRINCIPLE is APPLIED to a specific day of the week just as the same PRINICIPLE is APPLIED to other days of the week in Leviticus 23 and to the resurrection day in Psalm 118:24/Acts 4:10-11.

No, He provided a PRINCIPLE with APPLICATION - period However, the PRINCIPLE is sufficient broad for DIFFERENT APPLICATIONS and the proof is Leviticus 23,25; Psa. 118:24 and Rev. 1:10.

No; you try - unsuccessfully - find justification of or for YOUR, <ARBITRARY>, <application> of the 'Sabbath Commandment' and or "the day The Seventh Day Rest-Day of the LORD GOD" -- FIRST AND FOREMOST -- to your, <ARBITRARY> selected pet text, Mark 16:9.

For certain I myself am of the conviction that application of the 'Sabbath Commandment' and or "the day The Seventh Day Rest-Day of the LORD GOD" is valid, correct and faithful in the cases of Psalm 118 and Revelation 1:10.

But it is unlawful and unfaithful to TRUTH to make the same 'applications' to VAGUE Scriptures like <<Leviticus 23,25>> or IRRELEVANT Scriptures like 1Corinthians 16:2 or Mark 16:9 where ‘application’ IN JESUS CHRIST is out of the question, but actually applies on NATURAL <basis> and <principle> namely that of ‘yearly’ that is to say ‘seasons’ and ‘moons / months’, ‘basis’ and ‘principle’ --- or, in the case of Mark 16:9, on the <basis> and <principle> of “a day of the week” : “the First Day-of-the-week”—“first-with REFERENCE TR FROM, the Seventh Day Sabbath-Rest-Day or and its <Law> the Fourth Commandment—which pin-points both the First Day as the First Day after the Sabbath, and the Sabbath as the day before the First Day-OF-THE-WEEK.

<ARBITRARY> is WILD; is out of order; is out of control; and is UN-‘REST’-FULL. The day The Seventh Day Rest-Day-Sabbath of the LORD GOD <in principle> is the opposite of such things.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

No slip up at all but clearly intentionally because if he had added "of the week" then he would have violated His own law in applying it to other days of the week in Levitius 23 and to the first day of the week in the New Testament. So, no slip up but clear intent to provide a PRINCIPLE that can be EQUALLY applied to other days of the week by arbitrary choice - divine choice.

<<by arbitrary choice - divine choice>>!!

Are you Muslim? an Islamist?

<<if he [God] had added "of the week" then he would have violated His own law in applying it to other days of the week in Levitius 23>>

That is you, Biblicist, AFFIRMING God did NOT <apply it> -- that is, God neither <applied> <the week> nor "the Sabbath" --- neither its <basis> nor its <principle>, <<to other days of the week in Levitius 23>>.

Eventually it had to come out.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

If this …

No slip up at all. Here the PRINCIPLE is APPLIED to a specific day of the week just as the same PRINICIPLE is APPLIED to other days of the week in Leviticus 23 and to the resurrection day in Psalm 118:24/Acts 4:10-11.

… is not the DIRECT CONTRADICTION of this …

No slip up at all but clearly intentionally because if he had added "of the week" then he would have violated His own law in applying it to other days of the week in Levitius 23 and to the first day of the week in the New Testament. So, no slip up but clear intent to provide a PRINCIPLE that can be EQUALLY applied to other days of the week by arbitrary choice - divine choice.

… then what is a contradiction, and what, a SELF-DESTRUCTIVE CONTRADICTION?!

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
The Baptist Confession of Faith - section 19 points to the Gen 2:3 command - given to Adam and Eve - before the fall - as the 4th Commandment - within the TEN Commandments.

Did God simply get that wrong in His Gen 2:3 statement?

No, He provided a PRINCIPLE with APPLICATION - period However, the PRINCIPLE is sufficient broad for DIFFERENT APPLICATIONS and the proof is Leviticus 23,25; Psa. 118:24 and Rev. 1:10.

Sadly for your wild assumptions there is no such thing as "keep any one day as a holy day of worship " Called "The Sabbath Law" - so "you make it up" and "quote yourself" to do so.

God did not say in Ex 20 or in Gen 2:3 or in Ex 16 "I am now going to apply the Sabbath Law to the weekly Sabbath of Gen 2 or the Ten Commandments" as you seem to "imagine".

God states His own intent in Ex 20:8-11 without any reference to some other "Sabbath Law" as if he is creating an instance of some other law.

The only way this is a legitimate instance of something else - is that it is an instance of "God's Sovereign choice" and "God making Law".

Thus each Sabbath - whether it is the one that applies to all mankind in Gen 2:3 and Ex 20:8-11 or the annual Sabbaths for Israel in Lev 23 - all are instances of God's Sovereign choice, His commands.

NEVER is it said that Passover or anything else is an instance of Gen 2:3 weekly Sabbath.

(Hint - never debate a bogus idea about instances of base class objects with one who creates instances of actual base class objects for a living)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
The Baptist Confession of Faith - section 19 points to the Gen 2:3 command - given to Adam and Eve - before the fall - as the 4th Commandment - within the TEN Commandments.

Did God simply get that wrong in His Gen 2:3 statement?

Sadly for your wild assumptions there is no such thing as "keep any one day as a holy day of worship " Called "The Sabbath Law" - so "you make it up" and "quote yourself" to do so.

God did not say in Ex 20 or in Gen 2:3 or in Ex 16 "I am now going to apply the Sabbath Law to the weekly Sabbath of Gen 2 or the Ten Commandments" as you seem to "imagine".

God states His own intent in Ex 20:8-11 without any reference to some other "Sabbath Law" as if he is creating an instance of some other law.

The only way this is a legitimate instance of something else - is that it is an instance of "God's Sovereign choice" and "God making Law".

Thus each Sabbath - whether it is the one that applies to all mankind in Gen 2:3 and Ex 20:8-11 or the annual Sabbaths for Israel in Lev 23 - all are instances of God's Sovereign choice, His commands.

NEVER is it said that Passover or anything else is an instance of Gen 2:3 weekly Sabbath.

(Hint - never debate a bogus idea about instances of base class objects with one who creates instances of actual base class objects for a living)

in Christ,

Bob

Lekker!

Tell him!

Beautiful!

 

[DrJamesAch]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
The Baptist Confession of Faith - section 19 points to the Gen 2:3 command - given to Adam and Eve - before the fall - as the 4th Commandment - within the TEN Commandments.

Did God simply get that wrong in His Gen 2:3 statement?




Sadly for your wild assumptions there is no such thing as "keep any one day as a holy day of worship " Called "The Sabbath Law" - so "you make it up" and "quote yourself" to do so.

God did not say in Ex 20 or in Gen 2:3 or in Ex 16 "I am now going to apply the Sabbath Law to the weekly Sabbath of Gen 2 or the Ten Commandments" as you seem to "imagine".

God states His own intent in Ex 20:8-11 without any reference to some other "Sabbath Law" as if he is creating an instance of some other law.

The only way this is a legitimate instance of something else - is that it is an instance of "God's Sovereign choice" and "God making Law".

Thus each Sabbath - whether it is the one that applies to all mankind in Gen 2:3 and Ex 20:8-11 or the annual Sabbaths for Israel in Lev 23 - all are instances of God's Sovereign choice, His commands.

NEVER is it said that Passover or anything else is an instance of Gen 2:3 weekly Sabbath.

(Hint - never debate a bogus idea about instances of base class objects with one who creates instances of actual base class objects for a living)

in Christ,

Bob

So which day do you go to church on?

 

[BobRyan]

I believe that Christ was raised from the dead on the first day of the week - Sunday. (Even GE who differs with me on this point will admit that Sunday is the first day of the week).

Interesting how when someone says "I attend church on the first day of the week - the day that Jesus rose from the dead" - no one responds with "yes but we don't know what day of the week is the first day of the week - so are you going to church on Tuesday? Wednesday? What?"

I keep the original 7th day as God gave it - Saturday.

In Ex 16 God said "tomorrow is the Sabbath".


in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

If this …



… is not the DIRECT CONTRADICTION of this …



… then what is a contradiction, and what, a SELF-DESTRUCTIVE CONTRADICTION?!

There is no contradiction at all between what I said in either quote. You are just failing to consider the carefully chosen words and reading into it what you like instead of considering what I carefully stated.

I make a careful distinction between PRINCIPLE and Application. If God would have added "of the week" it would have contradicted his VARIOUS applications to other days of the week. That does not mean the particular application to the seventh day "of the week" is wrong, but is in keeping with his VARIOUS applications of that PRINCIPLE. Now, read it again and carefully notice exactly what I said in both quotes.

 

[DrJamesAch]

I believe that Christ was raised from the dead on the first day of the week - Sunday. (Even GE who differs with me on this point will admit that Sunday is the first day of the week).

Interesting how when someone says "I attend church on the first day of the week - the day that Jesus rose from the dead" - no one responds with "yes but we don't know what day of the week is the first day of the week - so are you going to church on Tuesday? Wednesday? What?"

I keep the original 7th day as God gave it - Saturday.

In Ex 16 God said "tomorrow is the Sabbath".


in Christ,

Bob

My question about what day you WENT to church on was actually a trick question

" See, for that the Lord hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day." Exodus 16:29

As Jews, my family never left the house during Shabbat.

 

[The Biblicist]

Did God simply get that wrong in His Gen 2:3 statement?[/I]

Again, nothing in Genesis 2:3 says anything about any day "of the week." Genesis 2:3 is a faithful record of what God did in six days and then rested on the seventh day.

Sadly for your wild assumptions there is no such thing as "keep any one day as a holy day of worship " Called "The Sabbath Law" - so "you make it up" and "quote yourself" to do so.

Wrong again! We live in the Post-cross era and God has clearly designated the resurrection day on the first day "of the week" (Psa. 118:20-24/Acts 4:10-11) and commanded it to be observed ("made" translates same hebrew word used in the 4th commanded as "observe"). This is the day the Lord hath made to be observed and we find it faithfully observed in the New Testament record (Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2) as "the Lord's Day" (Rev. 1:10) and consistently as the "Lord's Day" right up to Constantine. It is the first Sabbath in a new series of Sabbaths (Mk. 16:9 "proto" "sabbatou) and it is the better Sabbath day observance now for the people of God (Heb. 4:9) due to the better and greater work of redemption by Christ (Heb. 4:10,14) that still points to a yet future fulfillment (Heb. 4:11) of a new heaven and a new earth in the eighth and eternal millennium where once again God can look upon all he has created and say "very good."

God did not say in Ex 20 or in Gen 2:3 or in Ex 16 "I am now going to apply the Sabbath Law to the weekly Sabbath of Gen 2 or the Ten Commandments" as you seem to "imagine".

I never said He did as you imagine I did. The fourth commandment presents the principle based upon what God did in Genesis 2:3-4 and God applies that principle to various days of the week and you cannot possibly deny that as it is spelled out in Leviticus 23. This demonstrates that the principle of six days preceding and following the seventh day Sabbath is sufficient broad enough to include these various applications of Sabbath law. The idea of a "sabbath" originates with the fourth commandment not somewhere else.

The seventh day "of the week" is not inconsistent with the sabbath Law as a Principle. It is a reasonable application and from all the evidence it seems that this is how it was applied by God to Israel in the Old Testament. However, the same law is consistent with a change of APPLICATION (not law) to the first day "of the week" in the New Testament since all applications by God are arbitrary as there is nothing sacred about any 24 hour period of time. God can sovereignly apply Sabbath law to the FIXED DATES in the Messianic Feasts which fall on various days "of the week" as He can apply it to the seventh day "of the week" or the first day "of the week" if that is His choice.

God states His own intent in Ex 20:8-11 without any reference to some other "Sabbath Law" as if he is creating an instance of some other law.

God calls upon Israel to remember the Creation pattern of six days preceding the Seventh day Sabbath and then provides specific application to them "Tomorrow is the Sabbath..." However, in the Messianic Feasts he demonstrates that the Sabbath is much broader in application to any limited day "of the week" as He applies to various days of the week and various longer periods of time (Lev. 25/Gen. 2:4). However, you and GE are attempting to limit in APPLICATION what God does not limit in application simply because you fail to see that the PRINCIPLE of the Sabbath Law is broader than you choose to interpret it. It is sufficiently BROAD to justify God's various applications and your intepretation does not allow for that and therefore condemns God's own applications of the Sabbath law.

Thus each Sabbath - whether it is the one that applies to all mankind in Gen 2:3 and Ex 20:8-11 or the annual Sabbaths for Israel in Lev 23 - all are instances of God's Sovereign choice, His commands.

NEVER is it said that Passover or anything else is an instance of Gen 2:3 weekly Sabbath.

Couldn't agree more!!!

(Hint - never debate a bogus idea about instances of base class objects with one who creates instances of actual base class objects for a living)

Hint - Never demand an interpetation of a law that forces you to condemn God's own application of that Law.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I keep the original 7th day as God gave it - Saturday.

In Ex 16 God said "tomorrow is the Sabbath".


in Christ,

Bob

<<the original 7th day as God gave it>> IS NOT <<Saturday>>!