The Work of the Holy Spirit

[awaken]

You did not engage my arguments at all.

Do you know why?

Because you can't.

You are duped. And you don't know how to deal with the facts, while at the same time you don't want to admit what you hold so dear is nothing more than emotional ecstasy which cults all over the world conjure as well as Christian tongue talkers do.

Your argument was all on a personal level! If you want to address the work of the Holy Spirit in scripture, my belief is easy to prove!

 

[Luke2427]

Your argument was all on a personal level! If you want to address the work of the Holy Spirit in scripture, my belief is easy to prove!

I have told you that the Scriptures show the pattern of miracles is that they appear for a brief span and cease. Deal with that.

 

[awaken]

I have told you that the Scriptures show the pattern of miracles is that they appear for a brief span and cease. Deal with that.

I must have missed that scripture that proved that any of the gifts have ceased...

 

[Luke2427]

I must have missed that scripture that proved that any of the gifts have ceased...

You don't need Scripture to say that they have ceased. That's the whole point. Are you not able to follow a line of reasoning, or what?

Where do the Scriptures say that the parting of mighty seas has ceased.

No where.

You don't NEED it to.

It is not mentioned again. Since Moses, it has not happened.

It is a miracle that has ceased.

There was an age of miracles in Moses day that confirmed the Word of God that he gave (the Torah). Then the miracles ceased.

THAT IS THE NATURE OF MIRACLES.

Can you not get that?

Miracles pop in for a time, serve their purpose and go away. There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO THINK THAT ANY MIRACLES SHOULD CONTINUE.

NONE.

You don't need the Scripture to SAY it- the WHOLE OF SCRIPTURE DEMONSTRATES IT.

Have you had visible tongues of cloven fire rest on your person?

NO.

You would say that that was a miracle for a specific people at a specific time.

DING, DING, DING!!!

Now, don't stop using your brain here.

So were tongues and the gift of special knowledge etc...

MIRACULOUS gifts cease. That is what the Bible demonstrates that they do.

Why can you not get that?

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Hi Awaken:wavey:

The only time someone spoke in tongues and they understood was Acts 2! The only ones that understood were the unbelieving Jews! There was no interpreter! The rest of the examples no one interpreted! The only time that an interpreter is needed is when you are in the assembly. They were praying in the spirit in church without an interpreter. That was the rebuke! NOWHERE DOES IT SAY THAT THE ONES SPEAKING KNEW THEMSELVES WHAT THEY WERE SAYING!

Where does it say in 1 Cor. 14 they were discerning if it was pagan? THey were just misusing "praying in the spirit" in the assembly and he was correcting it!

I don't think you have thought this through....According to this reasoning, the Holy Spirit Himself was causing the Corinthian Christians to do something for which Paul had to rebuke them?

If, according to your theory, the Corinthians were indeed praying "in the Spirit" without an interpreter (who, according to you, would also be led by the Spirit ) than either:
1.) The Holy Spirit was wrong for causing them to do something that God condemned (either by causing them to pray in "tongues" or by failing to provide interpretation
or
2.) The apostle Paul was wrong for rebuking them for praying "in the Spirit"

Which one is it?

 

[awaken]

Hi Awaken:wavey:

I don't think you have thought this through....According to this reasoning, the Holy Spirit Himself was causing the Corinthian Christians to do something for which Paul had to rebuke them?

If, according to your theory, the Corinthians were indeed praying "in the Spirit" without an interpreter (who, according to you, would also be led by the Spirit ) than either:
1.) The Holy Spirit was wrong for causing them to do something that God condemned (either by causing them to pray in "tongues" or by failing to provide interpretation
or
2.) The apostle Paul was wrong for rebuking them for praying "in the Spirit"

Which one is it?

Once you are baptized in the Holy Spirit you are able to pray in the spirit! It is always available to you! Paul's rebuke was not against praying in the spirit! Just in the assembly do it in order and with the interpretation.

We do not learn to speak in tongues...but we do need to learn order!
It says even the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. We can control WHEN we speak!

We also know that when we speak BY THE SPIRIT of God we can not call Jesus accursed. WHAT the Holy Spirit says through us is always the will of God! That we can trust!

 

[awaken]

You don't need Scripture to say that they have ceased. That's the whole point. Are you not able to follow a line of reasoning, or what?

Where do the Scriptures say that the parting of mighty seas has ceased.

No where.

You don't NEED it to.

It is not mentioned again. Since Moses, it has not happened.

It is a miracle that has ceased.

There was an age of miracles in Moses day that confirmed the Word of God that he gave (the Torah). Then the miracles ceased.

THAT IS THE NATURE OF MIRACLES.

Can you not get that?

Miracles pop in for a time, serve their purpose and go away. There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO THINK THAT ANY MIRACLES SHOULD CONTINUE.

NONE.

You don't need the Scripture to SAY it- the WHOLE OF SCRIPTURE DEMONSTRATES IT.

Have you had visible tongues of cloven fire rest on your person?

NO.

You would say that that was a miracle for a specific people at a specific time.

DING, DING, DING!!!

Now, don't stop using your brain here.

So were tongues and the gift of special knowledge etc...

MIRACULOUS gifts cease. That is what the Bible demonstrates that they do.

Why can you not get that?

You theory comes from authors that lean more to tradition than what the Bible really says! NO BIBLICAL SUPPORT AT ALL!

Miracles happen throughout the Bible. I would list them but it would take up a lot of space! These miracles took place outside most traditional theories! They took place outside JUST the giving of the LAW!
They took place outside JUST the giving of the prophets writings!
They took place outside JUST during the forming of the NT!

Sorry our miracle-working God does not fit in a man-made theory! His supernatural power explodes across all the pages of Scripture!

Your assumptions of miracles JUST to validate new doctrine or only at times when God is inspiring scripture...is just that an assumption! You need to research just where the idea of cessation of miracles and gifts arose!

There is no ordinary "spiritual gifts" and extraordinary "spiritual gifts." You can not separate miracles! A miracle is a MIRACLE!

I will close this with " But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they arE foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned' (1 Cor. 2:14).

MIRACLES WERE NOT GIVEN AS PROOFS; RATHER, THEY WERE A REVELATION OF GOD AND HIS CHARACTER. Supernatual gifts are a manifestation of God's kingdom!

The miracles you mention do not need to be repeated to prove that miracles still happen! What happen at Pentecost does not need to happen again...but the promise is mine AND TO ALL THAT BELIEVE!

Revelation 2 Jesus chides his church at Ephesus for leaving their first work and first love while remaining orthodox! What were the first works of the church???

 

[John of Japan]

No, we are not commanded to receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit! It is a gift! It was given to us by Jesus from the Father! Peter tells you what to do if you want to receive the Holy Spirit, it is not a command but an invitation!

This is a perfect example of your failure to understand plain Bible truth. I quoted to you Eph 5:18--"And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit." Either you don't know English grammar or you are willfully opposing Scripture. The form here is very clearly a command. The form in the Greek is also a command; it is in the present passive imperative form. Imperative means command. God commands us to be filled/baptized with the Spirit.

God commands us. You say "we are not commanded." Who should I believe?

 

[awaken]

This is a perfect example of your failure to understand plain Bible truth. I quoted to you Eph 5:18--"And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit." Either you don't know English grammar or you are willfully opposing Scripture. The form here is very clearly a command. The form in the Greek is also a command; it is in the present passive imperative form. Imperative means command. God commands us to be filled/baptized with the Spirit.

God commands us. You say "we are not commanded." Who should I believe?

So are you saying we are baptized in the Spirit more than once?
Filling yes! But I do not see where a person is baptized in the Holy Spirit more than once!

They received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost. This is the Spirit upon them. Yes! They were filled...but you can be filled over and over! But I do not see in scripture where any of them including the apostles were ever baptized in the Holy Spirit more than once!

 

[John of Japan]

So are you saying we are baptized in the Spirit more than once?
Filling yes! But I do not see where a person is baptized in the Holy Spirit more than once!

They received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost. This is the Spirit upon them. Yes! They were filled...but you can be filled over and over! But I do not see in scripture where any of them including the apostles were ever baptized in the Holy Spirit more than once!

In Acts 1:5 the prophecy is made that they will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. In 2:4 the event is referred to as the filling of the Holy Spirit. Therefore they are two terms for the same event. They are synonyms, so it matters not how many times each term is individually used in the NT.

You also have them being endued (clothed) with power from on high in Luke 24:49, another metaphor referring to the same event in Acts. Your view doesn't even take this term into account, otherwise you would say that we all should be endued with power--just once.

Again, the prophecy in Joel 2 of the same event has a different metaphor--the Spirit of God being poured out. This is probably a reference to the metaphor of water on a parched ground in Is. 44:3. The Spirit was not literally poured like water. You can't "pour" God. This is a reference to God's power being given.

What you must remember is that filling and baptism and being clothed and the water on dry ground are all metaphors for the power of the Holy Spirit being given for serving God. No one in the Bible was literally filled like a cup with God-like liquid, or immersed into God physically. Those are symbolic representations, not literal ones.

As for the idea that no one is baptized with the Spirit more than once, that only matters if you ignore the symbolism and concentrate on the "letter." If one baptism/filling was enough, then why were they again filled in 4:8 (Peter) and 4:31 (all)? They must have needed God's power more than once. I know I need it often.

 

[awaken]

In Acts 1:5 the prophecy is made that they will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. In 2:4 the event is referred to as the filling of the Holy Spirit. Therefore they are two terms for the same event. They are synonyms, so it matters not how many times each term is individually used in the NT.

So you are saying you can be baptized more than once, right? I see Acts 2:4 as saying when they were baptized in the Holy Spirit they were also filled! But I see "filling" happening more than once in scripture! I do not see someone getting baptized in the Holy Spirit more than once. Do you get saved more than once too?

You also have them being endued (clothed) with power from on high in Luke 24:49, another metaphor referring to the same event in Acts. Your view doesn't even take this term into account, otherwise you would say that we all should be endued with power--just once.

Again are you saying that you are baptized in the HOly Spirit more than once?

Again, the prophecy in Joel 2 of the same event has a different metaphor--the Spirit of God being poured out. This is probably a reference to the metaphor of water on a parched ground in Is. 44:3. The Spirit was not literally poured like water. You can't "pour" God. This is a reference to God's power being given.

I agree that God is not poured out! But it is the Holy Spirit that we are empowered by!

What you must remember is that filling and baptism and being clothed and the water on dry ground are all metaphors for the power of the Holy Spirit being given for serving God. No one in the Bible was literally filled like a cup with God-like liquid, or immersed into God physically. Those are symbolic representations, not literal ones.

I understand this!

As for the idea that no one is baptized with the Spirit more than once, that only matters if you ignore the symbolism and concentrate on the "letter." If one baptism/filling was enough, then why were they again filled in 4:8 (Peter) and 4:31 (all)? They must have needed God's power more than once. I know I need it often.

So you do not believe that the baptism in the Holy Spirit has anything to do with salvation, correct?

 

[HankD]

The Work of The Holy Spirit

John 16

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:​

 

[John of Japan]

So you are saying you can be baptized more than once, right? I see Acts 2:4 as saying when they were baptized in the Holy Spirit they were also filled! But I see "filling" happening more than once in scripture! I do not see someone getting baptized in the Holy Spirit more than once. Do you get saved more than once too?

Again are you saying that you are baptized in the HOly Spirit more than once?

Hmm. I thought I was clear. So I'll try again. There are at least four metaphors for what happened in Acts 2: the baptism of the Spirit, the fullness of the Spirit, the clothing of power from on high, and water on a thirsty land. All of these refer to the same event in Acts 2, wherein God gave power for His work to His believers. The fact that God gave power again and again to His believers shows that yes, the event is repeatable. We can be baptized/filled/endued/poured upon more than once.

Do you understand now? I don't know how I can be more clear or Biblical.

I agree that God is not poured out! But it is the Holy Spirit that we are empowered by!

Do you understand that the Holy Spirit is God?

So you do not believe that the baptism in the Holy Spirit has anything to do with salvation, correct?

In Acts the baptism of the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with salvation, but is for serving God. In 1 Cor. 12:13 we have a different event which does refer to salvation.

 

[awaken]

Hmm. I thought I was clear. So I'll try again. There are at least four metaphors for what happened in Acts 2: the baptism of the Spirit, the fullness of the Spirit, the clothing of power from on high, and water on a thirsty land. All of these refer to the same event in Acts 2, wherein God gave power for His work to His believers. The fact that God gave power again and again to His believers shows that yes, the event is repeatable. We can be baptized/filled/endued/poured upon more than once.Do you understand now? I don't know how I can be more clear or Biblical.
Do you understand that the Holy Spirit is God?

Yes! it is clear! I do understand the Holy Spirit is God! But surprising that you believe the baptism in the Holy Spirit happens more than once! Filling, yes!
I see all of them happening at the same time...but I do not see in scripture where the baptism happens more than once to a person! Can you elaborate on how you come to that conclusion!

In Acts the baptism of the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with salvation, but is for serving God. In 1 Cor. 12:13 we have a different event which does refer to salvation.

So you believe it is two separate experiences?

 

[John of Japan]

Yes! it is clear! I do understand the Holy Spirit is God! But surprising that you believe the baptism in the Holy Spirit happens more than once! Filling, yes!
I see all of them happening at the same time...but I do not see in scripture where the baptism happens more than once to a person! Can you elaborate on how you come to that conclusion!

Again, I thought I was clear. The Bible shows that both the filling and the baptism occur to the same event. How could they then be different events? The enduing and the pouring out also refer to the same event, but you apparently have not realized this. You've not responded at all to those Scriptures. How can you claim to understand Acts 2 without studying those other passages?

So you believe it is two separate experiences?

Am I writing in another tongue than English? Yes, they are different experiences.

 

[awaken]

Again, I thought I was clear. The Bible shows that both the filling and the baptism occur to the same event. How could they then be different events? The enduing and the pouring out also refer to the same event, but you apparently have not realized this. You've not responded at all to those Scriptures. How can you claim to understand Acts 2 without studying those other passages?

Am I writing in another tongue than English? Yes, they are different experiences.

Well, maybe you can elaborate on why it is different for others to understand! I believe salvation and the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a different experience! But I also believe it can happen at the same time!

I agree we are filled with the Holy Spirit at the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. Where we disagree is that I believe we have a one time experience when we are Baptized in the Holy Spirit but the filling happens often!

Just like salvation is a one time event/experience in our life...but walking it out is continuous! We do not have to get saved over and over.

 

[John of Japan]

Well, maybe you can elaborate on why it is different for others to understand! I believe salvation and the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a different experience! But I also believe it can happen at the same time!

I also believe that salvation and the enduement of power are separate events, but that they can occur at the same time. What is your point?

I agree we are filled with the Holy Spirit at the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. Where we disagree is that I believe we have a one time experience when we are Baptized in the Holy Spirit but the filling happens often!

I have given Scriptural evidence that the Baptism and filling are the same thing. You give no evidence for your position.

The key is that I have pointed out four metaphors for the giving of God's power. Again, they are metaphors that point to an event. Metaphors are not events, they are symbolic language.

We have metaphors in the Bible for salvation also: being born again, receiving the water of life, receiving Christ into one's heart, etc. They do not point to a separate event but to the same one.

Just like salvation is a one time event/experience in our life...but walking it out is continuous! We do not have to get saved over and over.

I believe this. But the enduement of power is not the same event as salvation, so what is your point?

 

[awaken]

I also believe that salvation and the enduement of power are separate events, but that they can occur at the same time. What is your point?

No point! Just shocked! Most here do not believe that! They believe it all connected! They say the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is salvation! That is all! I was just shocked to hear someone else believed this on this board!

I have given Scriptural evidence that the Baptism and filling are the same thing. You give no evidence for your position.

The key is that I have pointed out four metaphors for the giving of God's power. Again, they are metaphors that point to an event. Metaphors are not events, they are symbolic language.

We have metaphors in the Bible for salvation also: being born again, receiving the water of life, receiving Christ into one's heart, etc. They do not point to a separate event but to the same one.

I believe this. But the enduement of power is not the same event as salvation, so what is your point?

Well, we will just agree that they (salvation, baptism in the Holy Spirit) are separate events/experiences in a persons life!

As far as the other it is just what I see in scripture! I do not see the "wording" for baptism in the Holy Spirit more than once in a persons life. I can see why you think it does since you believe the filling and the baptism are the same! But I do not!

 

[Allan]

The answer is yes, if one distinguishes between regeneration and salvation.

Let me quote from A Systematic Study of Bible Doctrine bu John Paul Simmons, 1935)
Simmons makes a couple of other points;
1. It is the work of God
2. It is not hereditary
3. It does not issue from the old nature., nor can it.
4. It is not through the will of man, but is wrought by God.
5. Its initial application is unconditional, not dependent on repentance and faith.
6. The scriptures speak of repentance and faith as connected to salvation, but never to regeneration.
7/ It is a unilateral work of God to quicken (make us alive), us who were dead and incapable of response without it.
8. Regeneration produces a holy disposition which results in a willing repentance and faith for salvation.

Just a few things to chew on.

I know it is a bit off topic but since you brought it up... here is my opinion on the matter regarding regeneration/born-again and salvation.
FIRST, regeneration, salvation, born again, a new creation -are entirely the work of God and God alone, and SECONDLY, that 'faith' is not a work, according to Romans.
Sadly, like others, the guy you quote seems to miss, or just leave out some other aspects that make the work of God two separate actions or one and the same action.
Some state regeneration/born again is something different than salvation. In truth it is more a logical assumption based on the system of theology a person is using than something straight from scripture. Let me explain...

Do we ever find a distinction, established in scripture, that shows salvation and regeneration are separate things? No. Even the majority of the divines regarding Reformed systematic theology stated the Ordo Salutis (order of salvation) is primarily a logical order and not one that is empirically stated in scripture.. that being - regeneration before salvation.. it is a logical view, not stated from scripture.
Do we see in scripture that regeneration (and sanctification) is used to describe salvation? Yes. (Titus 3:5).. Note that we 'ARE Saved by"

Interestingly, "Regenerate" basically means - to be made alive.
Now here is an interesting exercise.. look in scripture and find all the verses that deal with people being spiritually alive, and tell the positional placement in relation to Christ? Answer - every single time, they are 'in Christ'. If we look at John 17:3 it tells us the very definition of 'eternal life' and that is having and being in a relation with God (paraphrase of course). Every time scripture speaks of 'life' in a spiritual sense, it always, always, always refers to this. Death is separation from God; Life is in union with God.

How is one 'alive in' Christ (but not yet saved) who is still dead in their trespasses and sins? If you are no longer dead then you are alive, and if alive, then 'in' or made one with, in unity with, Christ. So what happened to your sins?

What concord does Christ have with Beliel? or What unity does light have with darkness?
Are we saying the person has had their sins removed BEFORE they come to repentance??

It is of note that according to scripture that justification, sanctification, the Holy Spirit indwelling us, being made right, being made righteous (a changed nature), and the propitiation of Christ being applied are ALL said to have happened - BY FAITH. Now faith is NOT the will of man telling God to do something, nor is it man bartering with God for favor or life. Faith (acting on what you know is truth) is acknowledging that what God has said and done is true and in accepting/believing this, you place yourself under His divine and Sovereign right to do with you as He wills. It is His choice to save you or not; yet we know will of God concerning this matter toward those who will believe and repent.

Here is an OLD (2006) thread I did (Ordo Salutis 2 - The Regeneration) I did that discussed just this topic. Actually I have made 3 threads over the years to find people to discuss it but very few would do so. - hey, it isn't an easy theological discussion... but anyway.. here is my intitial post from a discussion with ReformedBaptist (whom I have great respect for) in which he held the view that regeneration preceded faith but that in the regeneration, one is 'In Christ', etc..

1. Is regeneration a prelude to salvation or it is salvation itself?
2. Is faith included in the regeneration or does it precede it?

In the thread "Ordo Salutis" as we were continuing our conversation on regeneration I previously asked ReformedBaptist this in a post:

Since the order of salvation is primarily a 'logical one' regarding Reformed theology I believe it is an important matter to ask "HOW regeneration makes a person reconciled without making a person justified, sanctified, filled with Holy Spirit, as well as being spiritually alive. When scripture states that one is only 'alive' when one is 'in Christ" which is only at salvation and therefore one can only be spiritually alive if one is saved.
Snippet of post # 21

RB replied to my question(s) by stating:

I am thinking there is some other kind of idea your posing your question here to other than my own. For example, it is very odd to me think along the lines that a person is regenerate without also being justified, sanctified, filled with the Holy Spirit and spiritually alive in Christ.
Snippet from the Thread - Ordo Salutis; post - #28

.... bold emphasis mine

Then I posted this post #60

RB,

I wanted to get back to this since this is more the crux in my mind that should be examined first.

Even though faith and regeneration are or at the very least nearly simultaneous it is the reformed belief or view that regeneration precedes faith in a 'logical' order. Thus to the reformed mind, regeneration is not actually salvation but that which comes before it. [some hold that long durations can might happen between regeneration and faith but they will eventually proclaim faith in Christ Jesus]

When I asked the questions to which you gave the above answers it was specifically with regard to regeneration 'before' faith is excersized and thus being actually saved.

So to re-cap and make sure I'm understanding you correctly:
You hold that before a person excersizes faith unto salvation after they are regenerate and this regeneration before faith entails the person being justified before God, sanctified unto God, filled with the Holy Spirit, placed in Christ (thus alive).
Soon there after I posted this which was an additional answer to his post #28:

I agree they are 'almost' simultaneous but unlike the Reformed belief I do not think it is a 'logical' order at all but a specific order that happens at the same moment in time. I say it is not a 'logical' order but a spelled out specific order based primarily upon the evidence of what I was asking you about regeneration (and all it entails) preceding faith (which is supposedly a part of that list). Let me show you what I am talking about.

You state that being regenerate precedes faith and that in this regenerating man is/has been given:
1. a new nature (old things are passed away behold all things have become new - IOW - you are no longer what you were);
2. the Holy Spirit indwells them;
3. their relationship to God has been reconciled (justified);
4. they have been sanctified unto God;
4. they are now IN Christ (thus alive);
5. and are given faith and repentance to be used for salvation.

This is the position you have declared so far (as far I understand you).

Now here is the problem I see with what you have stated. If all the above are imparted at regeneration (which includes faith) that precedes the excersizing of one's faith.
Then it would be true none of the above, biblically, are imparted to man prior to 'faith'.
YET as I have shown below:

It is 'by faith' we are justified (Rom 3:28)
It is 'by faith' we are sanctified (Acts 26:18,)
It is 'by faith' we are made righteous - a new creation (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)
It is 'by faith' the propitiation (substitutionary death) is applied to man (Rom 3:25)
It is 'by faith' we receive (obtain) the indwelling Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14)

It is not before faith is excersized that these are imparted to us (your view of regeneration) but 'after' we have believed.

Therefore if all of the above happened 'at' the regeneration, which includes the giving of faith (thus regen preceding faith), then we have a conflict with scripture which states the exact opposite. I do agree that all you have stated happen 'at' the regeneration (aside from faith). But scripturally if one holds that regeneration entails the above, regeneration can not precede faith for it is by faith all of the above is imparted to man. Then you must conclude (as I see it) that faith precedes regeneration.

In conclusion:
The verses I gave above show (and other verses as well) that unless faith is first excerized there is no new birth which constitutes all of the above; For they are all BY FAITH.

This is why I beleive regeneration IS salvation which is imputed to us 'by faith' and both terms (regeneration and salvation) are synonymos with the phrase - born-again (or the New Birth - you are no more what you were).
Thread - Ordo Salutis; post - #71

Additionally - I'm not picking on ReformedBaptist but am simply trying to continue our conversation (or anyone else who wishes to join in) but since he was the one I was speaking with it seemed necessary to show both our postings and or snippets of those postings.

For me, I find it biblically impossible to state that regeneration and salvation are separate things. To me it appears one must ignore a host of scripture that speaks to the very fact, essence, and nature, that they are the same thing.

 

[Yeshua1]

No where does it say that the gifts will cease when the canon was complete. Zero. Notta. When we die, or when Christ returns, ending this age of grace, will they cease. People who reject the gifts are powerless in their walk, which is really only talk. Has knowledge, wisdom, faith, and discerning of spirits passed? No. Yet the gifts that require proof or manifestation are rejected by those who cannot believe what Jesus said we will do. It is a conviction from scripture itself that the reader says to himself "Oh snap, I should be doing this because Jesus said I would." The skeptic then either has to take scripture in earnest and understand why he hasn't the faith , or find ways to escape his conviction that he does not meet the mark. Sadly the latter is more common. This is what separates true believes and those who try to believe with intellect, but reject in the heart, thus making them unbelievers of the full gospel.

Did the Apostles preach/teach the 'full Gospel?" MUST not have, for you make it seem that one would be healing and doing miracles even greater amounts than Jesus could, and yet they all suffered horrible deaths except fro John, and lost much of what this world has to offer, ALl they had what Jesus and the HS to empower them, so are you spirtually superior to them? Did they have lack of faith?