There is none who seeks for God

[Van]

Romans 3:11 makes this statement and some read this as saying "there is none who seeks for God" at any time." However the intended contextual message might be "there is none who seeks for God" all the time, or when they are going against God by sinning."

Contextually, since Paul is saying "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23) so "there is none who seeks for God"...when going against God by sinning is most likely the inspired message.

 

[revmwc]

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Appears there are those who diligently seek Him.

Isaiah 41: which Paul is quoting states,
24 Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you.

25 I have raised up one from the north, and he shall come: from the rising of the sun shall he call upon my name: and he shall come upon princes as upon morter, and as the potter treadeth clay.

26 Who hath declared from the beginning, that we may know? and beforetime, that we may say, He is righteous? yea, there is none that sheweth, yea, there is none that declareth, yea, there is none that heareth your words.

27 The first shall say to Zion, Behold, behold them: and I will give to Jerusalem one that bringeth good tidings.

28 For I beheld, and there was no man; even among them, and there was no counsellor, that, when I asked of them, could answer a word.

29 Behold, they are all vanity; their works are nothing: their molten images are wind and confusion.

Isaiah speaking to the Jews that in their day their was not one on earth who would show, declare or hear the words of God when He came. But men come seeking Him, the Magi came seeking why because they had been told of His coming and to look for a certain sign in t he sky, it is believed Daniel taught them this.

 

[Benjamin]

From my notes on seeking God:

Seek the Lord


(Deu 4:29) But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.


(1Ch 16:11) Seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually.


(1Ch 16:12) Remember his marvelous works that he hath done, his wonders, and the judgments of his mouth;


(1Ch 22:19) Now set your heart and your soul to seek the LORD your God; arise therefore, and build ye the sanctuary of the LORD God, to bring the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and the holy vessels of God, into the house that is to be built to the name of the LORD.


(1Ch 28:9) And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off forever.


(2Ch 11:16) And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers.


(2Ch 12:14) And he did evil, because he prepared not his heart to seek the LORD.



(2Ch 15:2) And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.


(2Ch 15:12) And they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul;


(2Ch 15:13) That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.


(2Ch 30:18) For a multitude of the people, even many of Ephraim, and Manasseh, Issachar, and Zebulun, had not cleansed themselves, yet did they eat the passover otherwise than it was written. But Hezekiah prayed for them, saying, The good LORD pardon every one


(2Ch 30:19) That prepareth his heart to seek God, the LORD God of his fathers, though he be not cleansed according to the purification of the sanctuary.


(Ezr 7:10) For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the law of the LORD, and to do it, and to teach in Israel statutes and judgments.


(Psa 14:2) The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.



(Psa 22:26) The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live forever.


(Psa 27:4) One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to inquire in his temple.


(Psa 27:8) When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek.


(Psa 34:10) The young lions do lack, and suffer hunger: but they that seek the LORD shall not want any good thing.


(Psa 40:16) Let all those that seek thee rejoice and be glad in thee: let such as love thy salvation say continually, The LORD be magnified.


(Psa 69:6) Let not them that wait on thee, O Lord GOD of hosts, be ashamed for my sake: let not those that seek thee be confounded for my sake, O God of Israel.


(Psa 83:16) Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O LORD.


(Psa 105:3) Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek the LORD.


(Psa 105:4) Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore.


(Pro 28:5) Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.



(Isa 55:6) Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:


(Hos 10:12) Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.


(Amo 5:4) For thus saith the LORD unto the house of Israel, Seek ye me, and ye shall live:


(Amo 5:6) Seek the LORD, and ye shall live; lest he break out like fire in the house of Joseph, and devour it, and there be none to quench it in Bethel.


(Amo 5:14) Seek good, and not evil, that ye may live: and so the LORD, the God of hosts, shall be with you, as ye have spoken.



(Zep 2:3) Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger.



(Act 15:17) That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.


(Act 17:27) That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

 

[HankD]

Once again, the convicting work of the Holy Spirit is universal and if He is able to convict ALL He can also draw ALL.

 

[kyredneck]

there are dozens of other verses where people seek God, examples of people that sought God (the Magi, Zaccheus, the Centurion, etc.)

….their 'seeking' is evidence that they're alive, 'born from above', and there's many, many more examples given in scripture.

 

[kyredneck]

8 And he, when he is come, will convict the world in respect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Jn 16

Once again, the convicting work of the Holy Spirit is universal and if He is able to convict ALL He can also draw ALL.

John 16:8 is a grossly misapplied passage by evangelicals.

 

[HankD]

8 And he, when he is come, will convict the world in respect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Jn 16



John 16:8 is a grossly misapplied passage by evangelicals.

Let me read your response.

I see you start off with ridicule and contempt which immediately signals a bad sign to me.
Wondering why an oblique ad hominem is required before your apologetic?

Normally I stop when i see this in a theology debate but because its you I will continue.

Yes I use this method myself but usually only in politicotalk in response to those who do so themselves.

I don't anymore with things pertaining to the Lord and His word (or I try).

I'm back.

OK To me the answer is evident that there are 2 entities who are recipients of the work of the Holy Spirit in this age.

There are specialized works of the Holy Spirit which are included in the Book of Acts which you apply to the specific work of "the world". These specialized works help transition the Jewish apostles and disciples from the OC to the NC.

The apostles/disciples:
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

The world:
John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

The two specific entities:
1 John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

 

[Aaron]

I bring this up for discussion sake...

Acts of the Apostles 17:26-27
26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us

And Jesus' parables
1. The Pearl of Great Price
2. The Treasure Hidden in a Field

I'm in agreement that the Lost man is not seeking (with any real knowledge or understanding) the True God of the Cosmos, but these aforementioned Scriptures seem to indicate mankind searches to some degree. What say ye?

Yes, God made every natural provision, yet men love darkness rather than light, so they refuse the provision of God in favor of their vain imaginations.

The carnal mind (i.e., the natural mind) is at enmity with God. For it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. Romans 8:7

If men cannot by nature submit to God's revelation, how much less so to His natural provision? God is good, men are corrupt, and all, those to whom He revealed Himself supernaturally and those to whom He gave natural provision only, are without excuse.

 

[Van]

Wow, several who support the idea some fallen people do seek God some of the time.

How did the Comforter who came after Christ died "convict the world." He (the Holy Spirit) inspired the New Testament and the ministry of the disciples. They laid the foundation.

I see the claim all those seeking had been made alive, regenerated. The rich young ruler was seeking yet was not saved. Those of Matthew 23:13 were seeking yet were not saved. The claim is unbiblical.

Finally, I see Romans 8:7 once again being "misapplied." Fallen people have the capacity to set their minds of flesh (ungodliness). And while doing that the "they are at odds with God." But since the same people seek God some of the time, it means fallen men can and do set their minds on godly things some of the time.

 

[HankD]

Wow, several who support the idea some fallen people do seek God some of the time.

How did the Comforter who came after Christ died "convict the world." He (the Holy Spirit) inspired the New Testament and the ministry of the disciples. They laid the foundation.

I see the claim all those seeking had been made alive, regenerated. The rich young ruler was seeking yet was not saved. Those of Matthew 23:13 were seeking yet were not saved. The claim is unbiblical.

Finally, I see Romans 8:7 once again being "misapplied." Fallen people have the capacity to set their minds of flesh (ungodliness). And while doing that the "they are at odds with God." But since the same people seek God some of the time, it means fallen men can and do set their minds on godly things some of the time.

That we do not seek God is apart from the Holy Spirit.

That is why the Spirit of God was/is given to all mankind regardless of nation, culture religion, etc.

Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."

John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

 

[Van]

HankD,
When person seeks God, they believe He exists and rewards those that seek Him. And of course that viewpoint reflects that God has revealed Himself to them, in the person and work of the Holy Spirit.
I think you are still pushing something more than revelatory grace. Hard to agree or disagree unless you specify specific passages.

 

[HankD]

HankD,
When person seeks God, they believe He exists and rewards those that seek Him. And of course that viewpoint reflects that God has revealed Himself to them, in the person and work of the Holy Spirit.
I think you are still pushing something more than revelatory grace. Hard to agree or disagree unless you specify specific passages.

Not sure what you mean by revelatory grace.
God has a certain "revelatory" knowledge of Himself seen and known by unbelievers:

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient

2 Peter 2
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

 

[kyredneck]

When Christ commissioned the twelve apostles He foretold them:
But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to councils, and in their synagogues they will scourge you; yea and before governors and kings shall ye be brought for my sake, for a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, be not anxious how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you. Mt 10:17-20

In the Olivet Discourse He foretold them:
But before all these things, they shall lay their hands on you, and shall persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for my name`s sake. It shall turn out unto you for a testimony. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate beforehand how to answer: for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to withstand or to gainsay. Lk 21:12-15

In the Farewell Discourse He foretold them:
They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you shall think that he offereth service unto God.....And he, when he [the Comforter] is come, will convict the world in respect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they believe not on me; of righteousness, because I go to the Father, and ye behold me no more; of judgment, because the prince of this world hath been judged. Jn 16:2, 8-11

20 Jesus answered him, I have spoken openly to the world; I ever taught in synagogues, and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and in secret spake I nothing. Jn 18

How did the Comforter who came after Christ died "convict the world.

Through the testimony of His witnesses:

Acts 2:
…. they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance…Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth… ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay…God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified. Acts 2:4,22,23,36

Acts 3:
…Peter… answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel… his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him… ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you, and killed the Prince of life… whereof we are witnesses. Acts 3:12-15

Acts 4:
…Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders… be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified… Acts 4:8,10

Acts 5:
… they set them before the council…. ye have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and intend to bring this man`s blood upon us…. Peter and the apostles answered and said… The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree… we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit Acts 5:27,28,29,30,32

Acts 6 & 7:
…there arose certain of them that were of the synagogue called the synagogue of the Libertines, and of the Cyrenians, and of the Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen. And they were not able to withstand the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spake….Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers; Acts 6:9,10; Acts 7:51,52

Acts 10:
…we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree…. Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest, not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead. Acts 10: 39-42

Acts 13:
…Paul stood up, and beckoning with the hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, hearken…they that dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him. And though they found no cause of death in him, yet asked they of Pilate that he should be slain. And when they had fulfilled all things that were written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a tomb. But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people. Acts 13:16,27-31

I see the claim all those seeking had been made alive, regenerated. The rich young ruler was seeking yet was not saved. Those of Matthew 23:13 were seeking yet were not saved. The claim is unbiblical.

You really gom things up when you conflate the heavenly birth with conversion.

Before one can enter or even see the kingdom of God one must first be born from above. Jn 3:3,5

 

[HankD]

Again as I see the scripture, the Spirit of God has a dual ministry, to the world and to the Body of believers.

- the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive... the truth of conviction of sin is not "received" by the world because it is not "given" but forced upon us when we were of the world..

In my experience I was not seeking conviction of sin, just the adverse, I was running from God.
Conviction of sin (severe in my case) fell on me like a "ton of bricks" No one seeks a ton of bricks to fall on them.

 

[kyredneck]

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

...I'm not alone in my assessment:

Pink:
...What then is the character of the "reproof" that is here spoken of? Is it an evangelical conviction wrought in the heart, or is it something that is altogether external? Almost all the older commentators regarded it as the former. We, with an increasing number of later writers, believe it is the latter. One of the leading lexicons of the twentieth century gives as the meaning of elencho, "to bring in guilty; to put to shame by proving one to be wrong; to convict with a view to condemnation and judgment, but not necessarily to convince; to bring in guilty without any confession or feeling of guilt by the guilty one."...........It is rather refutation by proofs, convicting by unanswerable arguments as an advocate, that is meant.".........."Here the Holy Spirit is not spoken of as dealing with individuals when He regenerates them and they believe, but as bringing conviction to the world because of sin. The Holy Ghost being here, convicts the world..." (Mr. W. Kelly)...."
Welcome pbministries.org - BlueHost.com

 

[kyredneck]

The world:
John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

...I'm not alone in my assessment of 'the world' either:

Gill:
"...he will reprove the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment: by "the world" is principally meant, the Jews; the world among whom Christ personally was, who knew him not, disbelieved him, rejected him as the Messiah, hated and persecuted him, even unto death;...

 

[Van]

Not sure what you mean by revelatory grace.
God has a certain "revelatory" knowledge of Himself seen and known by unbelievers:

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient

2 Peter 2
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

When God reveals Himself to people, that is the grace of revelation, or revelatory grace. The issue is whether you are pushing something more, like "irresistible grace" or "prevenient grace." Revelatory grace is certainly a biblical doctrine. And it is the basis of why some fallen people seek God some of the time.

 

[Van]

I see the claim all those seeking had been made alive, regenerated. The rich young ruler was seeking yet was not saved. Those of Matthew 23:13 were seeking yet were not saved. The claim is unbiblical.

You really gom things up when you conflate the heavenly birth with conversion.
Before one can enter or even see the kingdom of God one must first be born from above. Jn 3:3,5

Well it appears one of us has "gom" in the gears. When we are spiritually born anew, we go from being spiritually dead to being spiritually alive, together with Christ. That change of state is our "conversion."
Our mental change, to turn to God, does not alter or convert our spiritual state. God must credit our faith as righteousness and transfer us into Christ spiritually, where we are made alive.

Next we have the off the shelf claim that a person must be born again in order to even "see" meaning be aware of heaven. Totally false interpretation. The actual idea is you need to enter to see the inside. Both verses are actually presenting the same message using different words.

 

[HankD]

I probably need to leave off while I can before too much friction develops.
K and I are too old too change

Ya, I really like Pink, Gill, Owen, etc...

Here's another person who God attempted to teach the correct way to seek Him - Cain Genesis Chapter 4 Then after the murder of his brother Cain prays for God to be merciful to him (in this life) and God grants his request.

Then there is Judas - the more I think about him (over the years) the more of an enigma he appears.

 

[Van]

None of us should be too old to let go of mistaken views, and grab truth. Some seek God some of the time. That is true. God reveals Himself to people, both through what He has made and through the work and witness of the Holy Spirit. In our fallen state, we can hear and understand the milk of the gospel.