What Is Free Will?

[Silverhair]

Read John 6:44, then go back and read verses 37-39. Do you think, based on Scripture, everyone is free to come to Christ? Jesus states otherwise.

Does your bible not include verse Joh 6:45?

 

[Silverhair]

Sure my question makes sense.
Tell me, how free Adam and Eve were to enter back in to that said garden???
Could they choose to go freely back in?

It's not complicated...and you know the answer. You see, Adam and Eve were bound to their master, sin. They had to hope in the Promise that God would send a Redeemer.

Sir, grace cannot be chosen. Grace must choose to be extended by one who can actually extend it.

Perhaps the fact God put a guard on the gate may have had something to do with it.
Gen 3:24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

That's why your question is foolish.

 

[Silverhair]

You are correct. Everyone’s decisions are based on influences.

You stated the tax collector “acting on an influence (God) and choosing to act in it”.

I agree with you and this is the heart of the reformed concept of “human will” vs. “free will as I understand it.

No one seeks God of their own “will” unless God first intervenes .in their lives.

I hope we can agree on that statement.

peace to you

Rom 1:20, Joh 16:8-10, preachers, other Christians. God does influence people. To influence someone means to have the capacity to have an effect on a choice but it does not determine what that choice will be.

 

[Silverhair]

John 6: 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.

Is it Gods fault they do not believe?

No that is a choice. But they also could have chosen differently.
Joh 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Notice choice, that is called free will.

 

[AustinC]

How free were you in regard to your salvation?
If you say you had no choice then you can not even know if you are really saved, you just have to hope you are. That sounds a lot like the Mormons who will tell you that they know Mornonism is true because they had a burning in the chest.

Your dots don't connect, Silverhair.
That I did not choose my Redeemer, but he chose me, does not equate to me not knowing my Redeemer has saved me.
What it does is it humbles me that God chose to redeem a wretch like me.
Have you never sang Amazing Grace? John Newton was Reformed in his theology. He understood Amazing grace.

What is the free will stanza? Oh yeah, it goes like this:
Arminian "grace!"
How strange the sound,
Salvation hinged on me.
I once was lost
then turned around,
Was blind then chose to see.

What "grace" is it
that calls for choice,
Made from some good within?
That part that wills
to heed God's voice,
Proved stronger than my sin.

through many ardent gospel pleas,
I sat with heart of stone.
But then some hidden good in me,
Propelled me toward my home.

When we've been there
ten thousand years,
Because of what we've done,
We've no less days
to sing our praise,
Than when we first begun.

 

[Silverhair]

And yet you didn't deal with my actual post. Telling.

So the fact that you do not deal with posts you do not like tells us what?

 

[AustinC]

Perhaps the fact God put a guard on the gate may have had something to do with it.
Gen 3:24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

That's why your question is foolish.

Nothing foolish about it. God doesn't let you in just cause you want to get in. He guards his garden. Only the perfect Adam can walk in the garden and he must choose you.

 

[Silverhair]

Your dots don't connect, Silverhair.
That I did not choose my Redeemer, but he chose me, does not equate to me not knowing my Redeemer has saved me.
What it does is it humbles me that God chose to redeem a wretch like me.
Have you never sang Amazing Grace? John Newton was Reformed in his theology. He understood Amazing grace.

What is the free will stanza? Oh yeah, it goes like this:
Arminian "grace!"
How strange the sound,
Salvation hinged on me.
I once was lost
then turned around,
Was blind then chose to see.

What "grace" is it
that calls for choice,
Made from some good within?
That part that wills
to heed God's voice,
Proved stronger than my sin.

through many ardent gospel pleas,
I sat with heart of stone.
But then some hidden good in me,
Propelled me toward my home.

When we've been there
ten thousand years,
Because of what we've done,
We've no less days
to sing our praise,
Than when we first begun.

Your foolishness is tiring. If you act like an adult then I will treat you like one but until then no.

 

[Silverhair]

Nothing foolish about it. God doesn't let you in just cause you want to get in. He guards his garden. Only the perfect Adam can walk in the garden and he must choose you.

Do you think you are getting a bit of track from your original question. Did not like the answer I presume.

 

[Silverhair]

I quoted Jesus as well. He said the only ones that can come to him are those given to him by the Father. Judas was always doomed for destruction. He was given to him for that reason, not for salvation.

So if your not given by the Father and you have no other way of getting to the Son and if you don't get to the Son you are doomed to hell then it must be that your doomed to hell because God did not give you to the Son.

According to calvinism God has to make you believe in His Son. The bible tells us that if we don't believe in the Son we are condemned. So logically, in calvinism, since God does not make most people believe then He is the one responsible for them being condemned.

 

[Silverhair]

No, you did not address my question you redirected. Romans 1 says it is the unbeliever that is at fault. Now deal with what I said about Jesus saying nobody can come to him unless it is granted by the Father. Why are you avoiding this? It also says all the Father gives him will come to him. Why are you avoiding this?

It also says inverse Joh 6:45
It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT BY GOD.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

 

[Silverhair]

Matthew 10:16 did not say Judas was one of the sheep. Read it again. Apostle does not equate saved. Do you believe you can lose salvation? Same thing with twelve, has no bearing. John 6:70, is that the Father choosing for salvation? No. It is the FATHER who gives, not Jesus giving to himself. Friend in Mat. 26:50 also does not mean saved or elect.

The question what was he lost from? Salvation? Election? No. He was not lost from his purpose. He was lost from Jesus' inner circle.

So no, Calvinism does not necessitate that Judas be in Heaven right now, you simply don't know how to interpret Scripture either by ignorance, or willful ignorant stubborness.

I always find amazing that no one but a calvinist can understand or interpret scripture. Now if that were true then why did God not just make everyone calvinists. I mean if scripture is true and He wants all to be saved, would that not be the case.

Now we know that scripture is true, God does want all to be saved
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
But calvinists will tell you that God really only wanted to save a select group, them. So perhaps calvinists really are not that good at understanding scripture after all.

 

[Silverhair]

LOL, I am sure you don't recognize the circular oxymoronic statement you just made. Let me lay it out for you so you hopefully see it.

1) We don't get to choose.
2) God gets to choose.
3) We don't choose to believe and God chose the one who chose to believe.

LOL, I can't make it up. You canceled out your own assertion.

LOL Austin can you actually read?

Eternally Grateful said
"Your right, we do not get to chose who God saves. But he does ge to chose who he saved, And he chose to save those who believe."

Break it down and you get:
1] we do not get to chose who God saves
2] But he does ge to chose who he saved
3] he chose to save those who believe

That is simple English, do you have a comprehension problem?

 

[Silverhair]

They believe because they were chosen.

Where did you get that from?

 

[Silverhair]

And here is your error. You are basing this on a humanistic view of God. Your post is not based in Scripture.

And you claim your is and yet it flying the face of what the bible tells us about God.

 

[Silverhair]

Who are you to question God?

So why do you do it all the time. You deny clear scripture.

 

[Silverhair]

So it is all on their own?

Well the alternative is to be no more than a puppet like you want us to think people are.

 

[Silverhair]

Here's the problem, something made them believe. No it was not the Gospel, that was the activator. But not everyone who hears the Gospel believes. There is something else.

Ya the other thing is call a free will, some just do not want to believe. Shocking isn't it.

 

[Silverhair]

I didn't say it negated the power of the Gospel, what I did say is there has to be another determining factor. They have to be given to Christ to come to him. That is before belief.

God allows man the free will to believe and He knows who is going to believe and even those that will not accept Christ Jesus. Why does that shock you?
Joh 3:16 ...whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

This is not rocket science here, just read the bible
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

They have to believe in Him before they will come to Christ Jesus. That is the determining factor.

 

[Silverhair]

You still have to deal with the fact that the only ones that come to Christ are the ones given by the Father and that happens before they come to Christ. Not to mention they were chosen before the foundation of the world. The Gospel is the activator, not the reason/cause.

Notice they were chosen "IN HIM" why do you guys always leave Him out of there. God knows all that will be in Christ Jesus because they believe. No surprise there, He is omniscient.
We have already shown you that those that hear and learn from God are those that come to the Son.