What or who is predestinated?

[Brother Bob]

I could keep going around and around with you but you are clearly showing either denial or total ignorance.

Attacks don't accomplish anything we have already proved that. peace :thumbs:

 

[reformedbeliever]

BB. If God is all knowing (and He is) Psalms139...one of many... Then He knows the future as it exists or the alternative is that He is not all knowing. If He knows the future as it exists, then man will always choose in a manner that will be in line with what God already knows. In other words... we do not make a choice in a vaccuum... all our choices are affected by other factors. God is the one, or He puts the other factors in our lives in HIs providence, to cause us to choose in a manner that is consistent with His decreed will. Please read Psalms 139. I've followed these debates and if you will check... I don't post that much. I choose to control my tongue as much as possible I learn more that way. Grace and peace to you.

 

[Brother Bob]

BB. If God is all knowing (and He is) Psalms139...one of many... Then He knows the future as it exists or the alternative is that He is not all knowing. If He knows the future as it exists, then man will always choose in a manner that will be in line with what God already knows. In other words... we do not make a choice in a vaccuum... all our choices are affected by other factors. God is the one, or He puts the other factors in our lives in HIs providence, to cause us to choose in a manner that is consistent with His decreed will. Please read Psalms 139. I've followed these debates and if you will check... I don't post that much. I choose to control my tongue as much as possible I learn more that way. Grace and peace to you.

Because He knows does not mean He chose. We all believe in a all knowing God but that is entirely a different subject, and is different than a God who chose some for Heaven and the rest for hell before the world began. peace:Fish:

 

[reformedbeliever]

BB. God's sovereignty and man's responsibility is an antinomy. Two seemingly opposing truths. They both are true although they seem to oppose each other. We never make a truly free choice. If we did that would be amoral. Would you make a choice without considering others? If He didn't choose some for heaven... they would never get there.

 

[Dale-c]

Attacks don't accomplish anything we have already proved that. peace

That wasn't an attack. It was just a statement of fact.
You have been shown the plain meaning of scripture and deny it. That is all.
It is not meant as a personal attack.

Attacks do not accomplish anything, you are right, but explaining the plain meaning of scripture hasn't accomplished any thing either as you keep denying it says what it says.

 

[Brother Bob]

Attacks do not accomplish anything, you are right, but explaining the plain meaning of scripture hasn't accomplished any thing either as you keep denying it says what it says.

Where did I do that? I have used Scriptures all the way and the misunderstanding is not on my part. peace:Fish:

 

[Dale-c]

Because He knows does not mean He chose. We all believe in a all knowing God but that is entirely a different subject, and is different than a God who chose some for Heaven and the rest for hell before the world began. peace

If this were true then God would be like a man tied to the railroad tracks with a train coming. Knowing full well what was going to happen, but powerless to change.

I say God is NOT powerless. Why do I say that? Because the Bible says so.

 

[reformedbeliever]

BB. You need to study a little more about God's omniscience and omnipotence. If God's foreknowledge does not affect man's choices, then God does not have foreknowledge. (He does have foreknowledge by the way, and is all powerful too). Read Psalms 139 again

 

[webdog]

Calvinists look at everything as God is bound by time. How does He foreknow and predestine the future? Simple...He EXISTS at every moment in time at THE SAME TIME! He is omnitemporal. Foreknow and predestine are human terms used by God to give us a picture of His sovereignty. Trillions of years ago (in man's time), God existed in October '79 when I gave my life to Him. Did He forknow this trillions of years ago? Yes, because He was there at the same time! We cannot know everthing there is to know about God, why some men choose and why others don't. Calvinism doesn't know. Arminianism doesn't know.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Webdog. I'm a 5 point calvinist, and I absolutely do not believe God is bound by time. All creation is bound by time. He is the creator and not created... and is absolutely not bound by time. He created time for His creation.

 

[webdog]

Webdog. I'm a 5 point calvinist, and I absolutely do not believe God is bound by time. All creation is bound by time. He is the creator and not created... and is absolutely not bound by time. He created time for His creation.

It was a response to this view...

If this were true then God would be like a man tied to the railroad tracks with a train coming. Knowing full well what was going to happen, but powerless to change.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I meant to add that because everything is a done deal with God... (He sees eternity past and eternity future right now)... that proves that our destiny is set by God. Yet we make choices and we are responsible for them. Again... all our choices will be consistent with God's decreed will. He is sovereign

 

[webdog]

(He sees eternity past and eternity future right now)

He doesn't "see" eternity past and future...He's the "I AM".

that proves that our destiny is set by God.

It doesn't prove that at all. Being omnitemporal is not the same as declaring everything.

all our choices will be consistent with God's decreed will. He is sovereign

Not only His declarative will, but His permissive will. Sovereigny in not negated if God allows things to happen (permissive will). If you negate His permissive will, you then have just reinforced double predestination, and He also becomes the author of sin.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Psalms 139:16. Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them.
*all* our days were ordained before we ever existed. We only existed in God's foreknowledge. We had not one day to do anything for God to base His forknowledge upon. He wrote in His book all our days before they existed. With God all our days are a done deal! No variables. Yet we are responsible.

 

[reformedbeliever]

When trying to view God's omniscience from man's limited intellect, we end up with a paradox. Philosophers would say that if man had the capability to travel in time, lets say back in time, that a man would not be able to go back and kill his grandfather... either by accident or on purpose. To do so would mean that the man would have never existed to go back in time. This is called the grandfather paradox. This would be an example of how man can not change his destiny. This would show that men are absolutely predestined according to God's foreknowledge... no variables. Yet God allows choice and we are responsible for our choices. Webdog you can call that His permissive will. I'll go along with that. God is not the author of sin. Would this be another thread?

 

[webdog]

Philosophers would say that if man had the capability to travel in time, lets say back in time, that a man would not be able to go back and kill his grandfather... either by accident or on purpose. To do so would mean that the man would have never existed to go back in time. This is called the grandfather paradox.

This is a human paradox, but would God be bound by this limitation? I don't think He would. If God wanted someone to go back into time, and kill their grandfather, God would use even this for His glory, including altering the future so that the person who killed the grandfather would still exist. Deep stuff, huh? :laugh:

 

[reformedbeliever]

Webdog... you mean theologians and philosophers don't put God in a box? Sometimes I think we try to put Him there and lock Him up to keep our human natures safe. ) I agree with you that God can do anything except act outside His nature.:thumbs:

 

[pinoybaptist]

If you guys want a quick "down and dirty"

The OT saints weren't "regenerated" ("born again," indwelt by the Holy Ghost) and yet they were saved. Nicodemus in John 3 is the proof -- "Can a man enter into the womb again?" He, a "Master of Iserael," had no clue what Jesus was talking about. Yet "regeneration" is the key to the "elect's" hearing the [Lazarus-like]"call" of salvation! How does Calvin answer that?

The fact is, he didn't. His entire system might have worked IF it was only the new covenant church that was being saved. But through ignorance of the other covenants of God, he missed the point that OT Israel would be resurrected postrib to the "new birth" that Nicodemus couldn't comprehend. Put simply, the OT saints only got part of the "predestination package" in their first life.

Guys, Israel's inheritance is the earth forever, even in the New Earth -- the church's is in New Jerusalem in heaven. Israel has parts of their "predestination package" still ahead of them -- resurrection, regeneration, indewelling Spirit of sanctification, spiritual gifts, body of "terrestrial glory," rapture (Rev 20:11), body of "celestail glory," New Earth.

Instead of believing Calvin's flawed paradigm, I invite you to receive the Bible's!

skypair

No, you're wrong. The OT saints were regenerate children of God. Those who received Christ when He came unto His own (meaning Israel) received Christ because they were 'born from above'.

Read John 1:12 and 13, and see for yourself.

God is a consistent God. Faith, that is, what is often called 'saving faith' cannot come unless one is born from above. Seeing the kingdom of God with the eye of faith is a result of a regenerate soul.

Jesus was telling Nicodemus, an Old Testament saint, that he must be born again and only the Spirit, not the gospel, not preaching, can regenerate a soul dead in sin and trespasses. Apart from the Holy Spirit, no man can be born again, or make himself born again, or decide to be born again. The quickening of God's people is the work of the Holy Spirit, from the Old Testament times to present.


There is no such thing as partial regeneration, or quickening by installment.

All New Testament saints are regenerate children of God, including Nicodemus, and Simeon who knew who Jesus was without any human telling him anything (Luke 2:25-30).

As for Israel, if you're talking of national Israel, many more learned men than you or I can ever hope to be declared in 1948 that surely Israel will now turn to the Savior. They were wrong, because national Israel is no more important to God than the true Israel, which is made up of the redeemed children of God, both Jews and Gentiles.

 

[webdog]

Jesus was not telling Nicodemus, an Old Testament saint, that he must be born again because only the Spirit, not the gospel, not preaching, can regenerate a soul dead in sin and trespasses.

Jesus told Nicodemus only that he needed to be born again. The rest YOU added. The Bible tells us that faith comes by HEARING and hearing by the WORD of God!

Now that you have brought up Nicodemus, if regeneration precedes faith, and one who is regenerated can see the Kingdom of God, if Nicodemus had died prior to faith in Christ, would he still inherit the Kingdom of God?

 

[webdog]

because only the Spirit, not the gospel, not preaching, can regenerate a soul dead in sin and trespasses.

I have to comment on this, too. You hold the Holy Spirit above Christ. Jesus said I AM the resurrection and the Life! He didn't say the Holy Spirit is the resurrection and the life, and then I take action. The Word is ENOUGH to raise the dead (physical and spiritual) to life. The Spirit and the Word work in unison, not separate!