Where Does Faith Come From?

[Gup20]

For the record, the doctrines of grace did not start with Augustine, they started with the biblical writers.

For the record, the first person saved (or made righteous) by grace, through faith in the gospel, is Abraham. You should look to his story and example to learn how the covenant of grace through faith works, since he is the one to whom the covenant was made. Genesis 12-17, Galatians 1-4, Romans 4 & 10, Deuteronomy 30.

He shows a pattern of 1) the gospel is preached to Abraham, 2) Abraham believes the gospel, 3) Abraham is made righteous, 4) Abraham's righteousness is sealed with circumcision (the shadow of the Holy Spirit's indwelling), 5) Abraham does good works demonstrating his faith is real.

This same pattern is true of those who believe the gospel today.

[Rom 4:9-13 NASB] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

[Gal 3:6-9 NASB] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

[Eph 1:13-14 NASB] 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.​

Since Abraham was the first saved by grace through faith, we have to look to his pattern, and his example to know how salvation works, and look to his covenant for how the promise of righteousness through faith works. We see clearly that circumcision was the pre-Christ shadow and type of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This makes a lot of sense. The Holy Spirit is the "circumcision of the heart" talked about in both the Old Testament and New Testament.

[Deu 30:6 NASB] 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

[Deu 10:16 NASB] 16 "So circumcise your heart, and stiffen your neck no longer.

[Jer 4:4 NASB] 4 "Circumcise yourselves to the LORD And remove the foreskins of your heart, Men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, Or else My wrath will go forth like fire And burn with none to quench it, Because of the evil of your deeds."

[Jer 9:26 NASB] 26 Egypt and Judah, and Edom and the sons of Ammon, and Moab and all those inhabiting the desert who clip the hair on their temples; for all the nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised of heart."

[Lev 26:41 NASB] 41 I also was acting with hostility against them, to bring them into the land of their enemies--or if their uncircumcised heart becomes humbled so that they then make amends for their iniquity,

[Eze 44:9 NASB] 9 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, of all the foreigners who are among the sons of Israel, shall enter My sanctuary.

[Act 7:51 NASB] 51 "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

[Rom 2:29 NASB] 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

[Rom 7:22 NASB] 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
[Rom 8:10 NASB] 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

[Col 2:11 NASB] 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;​

So the Holy Spirit in us is "circumcision of the heart." Then we can rely on Abraham's pattern which is the pattern for the righteousness of faith.

 

[Reformed]

***Sigh***

Paul isn’t going to contradict himself.

For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, “I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.” Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.[1 Corinthians 1:18-21]

Paul has qualified it here. The word of the cross(i.e. the gospel) is foolishness to those who are perishing. It being presented them they naturally discard it, have no desire for it. But to those who are being saved(same word of the cross being presented them) it is the power of God.

What Paul was saying is that no one is saved outside the preaching of the cross, that the Spirit works through the cross to save them that believe. Now, ppl in their fallen state will never believe. That is why it is imperative to teach that not only the gospel saves, but that the gospel preached while the Spirit works, saves ppl.

You are correct. Romans 1:17 is true. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Is the power of God unto salvation for all? No. 1 Corinthians 1 specifies the Gospel is the power of God for the Elect. This does not mean the God's power through the Gospel is some home deficient or limited in ability. As with definite atonement (limited atonement), is is intended for a specific group of people. The elect of God.

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[JonC]

***Sigh***

Paul isn’t going to contradict himself.

For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, “I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.” Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.[1 Corinthians 1:18-21]

Paul has qualified it here. The word of the cross(i.e. the gospel) is foolishness to those who are perishing. It being presented them they naturally discard it, have no desire for it. But to those who are being saved(same word of the cross being presented them) it is the power of God.

What Paul was saying is that no one is saved outside the preaching of the cross, that the Spirit works through the cross to save them that believe. Now, ppl in their fallen state will never believe. That is why it is imperative to teach that not only the gospel saves, but that the gospel preached while the Spirit works, saves ppl.

No, Paul is not contradicting himself.

Sometimes people do not realize that their "wisdom" has been set aside.

The issue is that Paul has said that the "gospel is the power". You condemn other Christians for saying the exact same thing, even when they have qualified the power of the Spirit elsewhere. It is dishonest because it does not deal with the entire context. It is cowardly because it accuses someone who is not active here to point to your error.

The fact remains that you cannot accept the passage as it stands without qualification. You condemn Paul for his words to the Romans by pulling another verse from his words to the Corinthians to piece together some sort of doctrine.

 

[JonC]

You are correct. Romans 1:17 is true. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Is the power of God unto salvation for all? No. 1 Corinthians 1 specifies the Gospel is the power of God for the Elect. This does not mean the God's power through the Gospel is some home deficient or limited in ability. As with definite atonement (limited atonement), is is intended for a specific group of people. The elect of God.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Do you believe that Paul was wrong to say it to the Christians in Rome without the qualification he provides to the Church in Corinth?

 

[SovereignGrace]

No, Paul is not contradicting himself.

Sometimes people do not realize that their "wisdom" has been set aside.

The issue is that Paul has said that the "gospel is the power". You condemn other Christians for saying the exact same thing, even when they have qualified the power of the Spirit elsewhere. It is dishonest because it does not deal with the entire context. It is cowardly because it accuses someone who is not active here to point to your error.

The fact remains that you cannot accept the passage as it stands without qualification. You condemn Paul for his words to the Romans by pulling another verse from his words to the Corinthians to piece together some sort of doctrine.

As @Reformed posted Romans 1:17, the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith. Not unbelief to faith or faith to unbelief. Seeing faith is a gift of God...

 

[Reformed1689]

Note the topic folks, not that faith comes from hearing God's word, but a deflection toward false accusations. This is all they have folks - against the man fallacies, change the subject efforts, and misrepresentations.

No @Van we have given the proof, you ignore it. Man only comes to faith in Christ if He is drawn by the Father. Romans 8 is clear on the order of salvation. Paul is clear in Ephesians that Faith is a gift from God. It is NOTHING that we do. It is God and God alone.

And you have a low view of scripture and find it insufficient.

Where is the outcry on this direct accusation? I get chastised for asking a question that was taken as an accusation and this is blatant!

 

[SovereignGrace]

From John Calvin’s commentary...I know this will already be shot down from some...


But observe how much Paul ascribes to the ministry of the word, when he testifies that God thereby puts forth his power to save; for he speaks not here of any secret revelation, but of vocal preaching. It hence follows, that those as it were willfully despise the power of God, and drive away from them his delivering hand, who withdraw themselves from the hearing of the word.

At the same time, as he works not effectually in all, but only where the Spirit, the inward Teacher, illuminates the heart, he subjoins, To every one who believeth.The gospel is indeed offered to all for their salvation, but the power of it appears not everywhere: and that it is the savor of death to the ungodly, does not proceed from what it is, but from their own wickedness. By setting forth but one Salvation he cuts off every other trust. When men withdraw themselves from this one salvation, they find in the gospel a sure proof of their own ruin. Since then the gospel invites all to partake of salvation without any difference, it is rightly called the doctrine of salvation: for Christ is there offered, whose peculiar office is to save that which was lost; and those who refuse to be saved by him, shall find him a Judge. But everywhere in Scripture the word salvation is simply set in opposition to the word destruction: and hence we must observe, when it is mentioned, what the subject of the discourse is. Since then the gospel delivers from ruin and the curse of endless death, its salvation is eternal life.


This is not a slam on Dr. Flowers because He was a former member here. I would be on his case just the same if he was never here. I slammed Andy Stanley and he was never a member here.

 

[SovereignGrace]

@JonC
Notice it says “it is the power of God to those who believe”. It is not the power of God to those who remain in their unbelief, right?

If so, then why did the gospel ALONE not save them who rejected it? Why didn’t it bring them to salvation?

 

[Revmitchell]

***Sigh***

Paul isn’t going to contradict himself.

For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

To those who reject the gospel it is foolish. To those who believe it is power. What that does not say is that it cannot believed unless one is regenerated first.

Paul has qualified it here. The word of the cross(i.e. the gospel) is foolishness to those who are perishing. It being presented them they naturally discard it, have no desire for it. But to those who are being saved(same word of the cross being presented them) it is the power of God.

Again it does not say unless they are first regenerated. It is simply a comparison between those who believe the gospel and those who reject it. It is not imposing regeneration prior to believing on anyone.

What Paul was saying is that no one is saved outside the preaching of the cross, that the Spirit works through the cross to save them that believe. Now, ppl in their fallen state will never believe. That is why it is imperative to teach that not only the gospel saves, but that the gospel preached while the Spirit works, saves ppl.

Again, see both previous responses.

 

[Revmitchell]

No @Van we have given the proof, you ignore it. Man only comes to faith in Christ if He is drawn by the Father. Romans 8 is clear on the order of salvation. Paul is clear in Ephesians that Faith is a gift from God. It is NOTHING that we do. It is God and God alone.

Where is the outcry on this direct accusation? I get chastised for asking a question that was taken as an accusation and this is blatant!

Where is the outrage over the false accusation against Dr. Flowers?

Do you find that scripture is sufficient to bring one to belief?

 

[JonC]

As @Reformed posted Romans 1:17, the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith. Not unbelief to faith or faith to unbelief. Seeing faith is a gift of God...

Do you believe that it was a mistake for Paul to make that comment to the Christians in Rome (without the qualifications that you would provide)?

I ask because you seem to lift comments from other people in order to claim a position that may not be accurate. Is there a reason to believe that the practice employed does not extend to Scripture as well?

 

[JonC]

@JonC
Notice it says “it is the power of God to those who believe”. It is not the power of God to those who remain in their unbelief, right?

If so, then why did the gospel ALONE not save them who rejected it? Why didn’t it bring them to salvation?

I do not hold Flower's view. I am a Calvinist.

What I am arguing against is people who believe that it is appropirate to deal falsely with the words of other people simply because they hold a different position (and are anti- that postition, to be fair). This is where I fault Flowers. BUT when we become dishonest in dealing with the words of other people we become the sinner.

Flowers has said that the gospel is sufficient because it is the work of the Spirit. And that the believer is indwelt by the Spirit so God is active in the presentation. We have to deal with his words on his terms and strive not to misrepresent the beliefs of others. In his "Soteriology 101" (which is, IMHO, horrible coming from a teacher) he disproves your accusations.

My suggestion is to stop trying to combat other Christians. Discuss differences, discuss doctrines. But stop taking the words of others out of context in order to fight with them.

 

[atpollard]

"What is not in dispute is that regeneration is the sovereign act of God whereby He imparts His very life and His very nature to the believing sinner (John 1:12-13; Titus 3:5). Man’s first birth is natural; his second birth is spiritual and supernatural. His first birth makes him a member of a fallen race; his second birth makes him a member of a redeemed race. His first birth gives him a depraved nature (Eph. 2:3); his second birth makes him partaker of the divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4). The moment a person is born again he receives a new life (John 6:47; 1 John 5:12) and a new position as a child of God (John 1:12; 1 John 3:1-2). In short, he is a new creature in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17).[6] We can all affirm these truths." ~ Dr. Flowers

Does Regeneration Precede Faith?

A good quote. The only part that I might want clarification from him on is the phrase "believing sinner" ... which the verses quoted do not directly address. It does acquit Dr. Flowers of any charge of Pellagianism, but still leaves open the door to the label of synergism (which is NOT a heresy, just a "non-essential").

Thank you for the quote.

 

[Revmitchell]

My suggestion is to stop trying to combat other Christians. Discuss differences, discuss doctrines. But stop taking the words of others out of context in order to fight with them.

Well, when your attitude is openly displayed in this way:

"You and @Van are way oversensitive and insecure. Too insecure to answer simple questions because you know your logic will be torn to shreds." ~ davidtaylorjr

You can see the heart intent behind all of this.

 

[Revmitchell]

A good quote. The only part that I might want clarification from him on is the phrase "believing sinner" ... which the verses quoted do not directly address. It does acquit Dr. Flowers of any charge of Pellagianism, but still leaves open the door to the label of synergism (which is NOT a heresy, just a "non-essential").

Thank you for the quote.

Thank you for your reasonableness. We reject the charge of synergism. The issue there is you find some things meritorious that we do not.

 

[Jerome]

When we receive Christ by faith as He is offered to us, we are delivered from death, reconciled with God, and regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Revmitchell]

When we receive Christ by faith as He is offered to us, we are delivered from death, reconciled with God, and regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

I agree with that statement.

 

[Reformed1689]

What that does not say is that it cannot believed unless one is regenerated first.

But Scripture does say nobody believes (comes to Christ) unless granted by the Father.

 

[Revmitchell]

But Scripture does say nobody believes (comes to Christ) unless granted by the Father.

Post it let's talk about it.

 

[atpollard]

The implication is that it is already believed you are an idiot.

Are you two really requesting that I support my claim by posting proof of his inability to read?
I will, reluctantly, embarrass him more than he has embarrassed himself already ... because the GRAMMAR was presented to him (in English) and he has ignored it. So I WAS giving him a chance to prove he knew better than all other Greek Scholars on the agreement of gender in Greek sentences by offering the original text in the original language.

He chose to 'double down' on his folly.

Research Ephesians 2:8-9 on your own. Does the Greek support a claim that only "saved" [masculine] is the "gift" [neuter] and "that" [neuter] which is from God?