Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
We didn't misunderstand Eph 2:1-3 and as I stated earlier, i dont believe you understand what you discussing, it has no rhythm to me.
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Where does God's Wrath Go?
- Thread starter JonC
- Start date
Yes you did.
You read your assumptions into the passage. When God says that we (who are "numbered among the elect" were once "dead in our trespasses" you read into that verse that sime who are dead in their trespasses are "numbered among the elect".
You could have avoided the mistake by reading the passages that I provided (the ones stating that the ekect are the ones who believe and are alive in the Spirit).
How can somebody be "dead in their trespasses" and believe, be alive in the Spirit, Christ living in them?
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
You sounding more and more like you dont understand what you saying.
Believe me, I absolutely get that you do not understand (I did not expect otherwise). To some God's Word is foolishness.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Yes sir because I cant tell what you trying to say
Yes, I know you do not understand.
I was not trying to say anything. I actually said it.
What I said was that Christians understand they were once lost, dead in their trespasses.
And I said the Bible never calls somebody that is lost "numbered among the elect" or "elect".
Those are very easy statements to understand. But I understand you do not comprehend. I cannot help you there.
The Spirit reveals the truth of Scripture. This does not mean truths not in Scripture. God opens our minds to His Word. I cannot open your mind to God's Word. I can only point to Him.
Do you believe that "elect" equates to belief and being spiritually alive (2 Cor 13, 2 Pet 1) or do you believe tgat the ekect can be "dead in their trespasses"?
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Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Ive already discussed this
Lol...you think so?
Anyway, just like every other person, have to choose to trust God or man. People will have their own ideas and interpretations, but these shoukd actually be interpretations (your position is not interpretation).
You may think that God's Word itself is shallow and in need of expounding. But the truth is God's Word is deep. The Spirit illuminates and guides the believer. Sure we interpret things different because we "see as through a glass dimly".
You cannot lean on theory, trying your best to cram Scrioture into that theory to make it "biblical" and expect to discern God's Word. You need to trust God and simply believe His Word knowing the Spirit will guide you as you go.
Anyway, you have made your choice and I have made mine. I will trust God and lean on His Word. Good luck with your theories.
(Me "shaking off the dust").
Anyway...
The point of this thread is that God's wrath does not go anywhere.
At Judgment the wicked will suffer God's wrath.
The righteousness will never suffer God's wrath.
Whatever we suffer we can know that it is not God's wrath because Jesus suffered without it being God's wrath.
And, whenever God forsakes us to suffering we can know that He will not abandon us but will deliver us, and that even the things we endure will be for the good because Jesus was forsaken to suffer but God did not abandon Him, God delivered Him, and this was the predetermined plan of God.
The point of this thread is that God's wrath does not go anywhere.
At Judgment the wicked will suffer God's wrath.
The righteousness will never suffer God's wrath.
Whatever we suffer we can know that it is not God's wrath because Jesus suffered without it being God's wrath.
And, whenever God forsakes us to suffering we can know that He will not abandon us but will deliver us, and that even the things we endure will be for the good because Jesus was forsaken to suffer but God did not abandon Him, God delivered Him, and this was the predetermined plan of God.
Hi @Brightfame52,
Ephesians is written to those who are 'saints,' holy and 'faithful' ones (1:1).
Paul tells them that they and he were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world (v.4). The word translated 'chosen' is 'eklego' from which comes 'ekloge' which is translated 'election' in Romans 11:5, and 'eklektos' which is translated 'elect' in Matt. 24:22 and 15 other places, and 'chosen' seven times more.
But of course the Ephesian saints were neither born nor conceived before the foundation of the world. And they, like everyone else (2:2-3), after they were born, were 'dead in trespasses' (2:1, 5). But that does not mean that they ceased somehow to be elect. 'For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable' (Romans 11:29). They were Christ's sheep and could never perish (John 10:27-28). But nonetheless these Ephesians were 'children (NIV 'objects') of wrath' (Eph. 2:3.) They were lost. Lost sheep.
But what happens to lost sheep? The Good Shepherd goes and finds them, and brings them home (Luke 15:3-7).
'… I was lost, but Jesus found me
Found the sheep that went astray
Raised me up and gently led me
Back into the narrow way.'
So it is entirely possible to be elect yet lost.
Ephesians is written to those who are 'saints,' holy and 'faithful' ones (1:1).
Paul tells them that they and he were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world (v.4). The word translated 'chosen' is 'eklego' from which comes 'ekloge' which is translated 'election' in Romans 11:5, and 'eklektos' which is translated 'elect' in Matt. 24:22 and 15 other places, and 'chosen' seven times more.
But of course the Ephesian saints were neither born nor conceived before the foundation of the world. And they, like everyone else (2:2-3), after they were born, were 'dead in trespasses' (2:1, 5). But that does not mean that they ceased somehow to be elect. 'For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable' (Romans 11:29). They were Christ's sheep and could never perish (John 10:27-28). But nonetheless these Ephesians were 'children (NIV 'objects') of wrath' (Eph. 2:3.) They were lost. Lost sheep.
But what happens to lost sheep? The Good Shepherd goes and finds them, and brings them home (Luke 15:3-7).
'… I was lost, but Jesus found me
Found the sheep that went astray
Raised me up and gently led me
Back into the narrow way.'
So it is entirely possible to be elect yet lost.
Exactly!!
In Ephesians 1 those who are chosen are so "in Christ" (not "chosen to come to Christ", or "chosen to be in Chriat" but CHOSEN IN CHRIST). He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, and all who are "in Him" are chosen "in Him" from the foundation of the world.
Maybe you can help @Brightfame52 realize how he has twisted Scripture to deny 2 Cir 13 and 2 Peter. I couldn't but since you follow Calvinists he may listen to you.
There are no passages that speak of elect people who are spiritually dead, or even lost.
How do you view Paul and Peter stating thar the "elect" and "election" refers to those who are spiritually alive, Christ living in them, and that they believe?
It seems that you are stretching God's Word beyond any credibility, denying other passages, and all just to support your theory. Is tradition really that important to you?
@Martin Marprelate
BTW, welcome back to posting. I know you didn't take a break from the site but I have not seen you posting recently. I always get a chuckle when you get frustrated with Scripture and announce you are done here. Over the years I have grown to recognize that "exit" from a topic and even look forward to you resuming your posts.
Your theories help form a contrast to what is actually in God's Word, and I appreciate that. @Brightfame52 tried but could not quite measure up.
BTW, welcome back to posting. I know you didn't take a break from the site but I have not seen you posting recently. I always get a chuckle when you get frustrated with Scripture and announce you are done here. Over the years I have grown to recognize that "exit" from a topic and even look forward to you resuming your posts.
Your theories help form a contrast to what is actually in God's Word, and I appreciate that. @Brightfame52 tried but could not quite measure up.
It is based on hymnody. It all becomes theologically clear when you quote a hymn.
I have some to realize that many Calvinists (not all, I don't even know if its most) have been carried away by the philosophy. I do mean carried away from the faith. I realized this because so many cannot read God's Word. Instead they only see their philosophy reflected in Scripture. I think that these people may have at one time been able to see God's Word, at least at some level. Otherwise, why the interest? What actually caused them to exchange God's Word for human philosophy?
Again, I do not mean all Calvinists. I was once a Calvinist and a Christian. We all have philosophies and understsndings. I suppose it depends on how these are held. But there seems to be a point where people choose between the two.
Looking back, I was there. I was on the cusp of being a Calvinist rather than a Christian. God led me away, which confirmes my salvation (I believe once we are truely saved we will always be saved).
This makes ne wonder if those who are led away by vain philosophy were ever really saved. Were they right there, at the fath, but chose philosophy?
Again, I do not mean all Calvinists. I was once a Calvinist and a Christian. We all have philosophies and understsndings. I suppose it depends on how these are held. But there seems to be a point where people choose between the two.
Looking back, I was there. I was on the cusp of being a Calvinist rather than a Christian. God led me away, which confirmes my salvation (I believe once we are truely saved we will always be saved).
This makes ne wonder if those who are led away by vain philosophy were ever really saved. Were they right there, at the fath, but chose philosophy?