Yos can't lose salvation!

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
In Romans 11 it is the warning
to "FEAR for you only stand by your faith" ...

Ed said


Quote:
Ed said -
Those in fear of loosing God's Salvation of them are NOT standing by faith.

There is a flaw in your logic. In Romans 11 Paul is not saying "BECOME joined to Christ" he is saying "You are right ... you ARE grafted into Christ... do not be arrogant but FEAR for you only STAND by your FAITH" -

He is NOT saying "HEY I told you to fear and you DID fear so that means you are not saved".

Your argurment is running contrary to the content of Roman 11.

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 11
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
[/QUOTE]

As you read the details in the text of Romans 11:20 why do you think Paul says "to fear"??

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

Why does Paul say in Rom 11:21 "Neither will he spare you" who is the "you" and what is the "you" supposed to take away from that instruction?

When Paul says "if you continue in His kindness" is "YOU" a saved person?

When Paul says "otherwise YOU will be cut off" in vs 22 is being "cut off" a saving experience of the saints that they will cary with them into heaven?

In vs 23 is "continuing in unbelief" a sign or reason for them "being cut off" if so - then what were they doing BEFORE they were "cut off for unbelief"? What was their start? believing? OR were they initially brought in "as unbelievers"??

Is "graft them in again" a reference to a saving relationship with Christ being restored - or some more frivolous idea?

As we explore the instructive answers to these questions we will see a very bright light shining in Romans 11 on the subject of salvation gained and lost.

Rom 11:
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, [b]they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [/b]

They were even MORE compatible with God's plan than we are today. They could only FALL from such an exalted position. In Christ – the vine (John 15) the Jews fell and this is a warning to “us”? Only if OSAS is not true.

Rom 11:
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

They become a warning to US as WE are in THEIR former position.

Rom11:
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

God desires to RE-establish them WITH US in that FORMER position IN the body of Christ. (Every branch In Me that does not bear fruit is cast into the fire – John 15). Yet here we see that God is able to “graft them in again” – so they can come back IF They do not Continue in unbelief.

 

[Oasis]

drfuss: The OSAS believers continue to use this verse without including verse 27, "My sheep listen to My voice, I know them, and they follow Me". You take verses 28 & 29 out of context. If you listen to His voice and follow Him, you are continuing to trust Christ. Continuing to trust Christ is the criteria for applying verses 28 & 29. The implication is that if you stop trusting Christ, you are no longer His sheep as far as verses 28 & 29 are concerned.

Hi drfuss,

v.27"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me"
True Christians listen to His voice, He knows who we are, and because we are true Christians we will follow Him.

Just like countless examples throughout Scripture, I will fail because I am human, but I will never fall because Jesus Christ isn't. The Grace that was good enough to save me, is good enough to keep me.

Want one of many examples of human failure? Look at Peter. He was Mr. "foot in mouth". I can identify with him.:laugh: He could be hot and cold; bold and weak; all in the same 60 seconds. Remember in Matthew 16:23? Jesus rebuked him saying,
"Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."
Just 7 verses before, Peter was saying,
"You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."-v.16
Look at Peter in Matthew 26 where Peter denies Christ three times as Christ said he would. But then after that the man became an unstopable teacher of Christ.

Peter is a walking rollercoaster, but he never jumped the tracks. Christ wouldn't let him. Peter's conscience as a true believer wouldn't let him.
Why? Go to Luke 22:31-32 where on the night He was betrayed, Christ tells Peter he's going to mess up.
"Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you Simon, that your faith may not fail."
Peter failed, but his faith was never derailed.

The Lord's prayers for our faith do not go unheard. Look at Christ's intercession for us throughout Scripture.
In John 17:15-23 He prays that we will persevere in the faith.
In Hebrews 7:25 what does it say?
"Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him because he always lives to intercede for them." The KJV translates the verse: "He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him..."

In my favorite chapter in Scripture, Romans 8, Paul caps my thoughts on this. Remember, Paul had just finished talking about his miserable failings in chapter 7.
"And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."-Romans 8:28-29
Here's the meat of this passage:
"And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."-v.30

We are spiritually glorified the moment we are justified; saved to the uttermost. It's incredible; it's baffling; but it's wonderfully true!...and not because of any of our doing, but whose?

"To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy- to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen."-Jude 24-25

We persevere when we allow Christ to work through us, and when Christ is in us we can not fail. He is the perfect keeper.

Have a great day all!:godisgood:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Romans 11 concerns groups, not individuals.

God, who knows the end at the beginning, knows that
the two groups will become one before the end of
time. Those two groups are:

1. Church Age (mostly gentile) born-again saved redeemed
elect saints.

2. Jewish Israeli elect saints.

 

[ccdnt]

It is NOT how we reconcile the verses...

It is what the bible says that is most important....

look at the context........

Will you then explain how the verses I gave several posts ago (in post # 42) were taken out of context?

 

[JDale]

Arminius held that Total Depravity as Calvinists understood it was essentially correct.

HP: If you are suggesting that the WA would feel differently than the Calvinist or the RA on total depravity, what would you see as the distinctions between them?




HP:I suppose I would like to ask Arminius, or any that say they believe like him, how a dead log floating down a stream, that has to wait on God to offer them grace, receives the ability to resist that offer having no ability but to sin and that continually. Does God grant to these dead creatures the ability to resist and accept His offer of grace? That would appear to me to be a strange grace, grace to resist God. It would appear to me to be sort of self-defeating? Let’s say that one is granted the grace to resist. What difference would that make?? They were lost without hope before due to nothing they personally had done, and then in that dead state are given an obviously overpowering influence to resist God’s grace, to what avail? Before grace they were simply dead. Now having received grace they can now resist the cure? Such a one believing this still has the question to answer how God can hold them responsible for any sin, let alone punish them eternally when they were born into a state that rendered them helpless to be any thing other than what they are, sinners.

Would not this enabling grace granted to the sinner seem a bit like handing someone that has been tarred, feathered, and without hope due to no fault of his own, a bucket of tar and a bushel of feathers to assure him that he will remain that way?

A Clarification:

Some WA's prefer the term "total inability" rather than total depravity. That's what I was referring to. As to what theological differences there are -- or if its just a matter of semantics -- I'll leave for another thread. Most WA's I know would not, however, greatly differ on the condition of man in his natural, fallen state.

That God enables man to believe is part and parcel of His grace! That He doesn't FORCE salvation upon is does not mean He is therefore cruel or somehow arbitrary. Quite the contrary -- the Calvinist idea that God PREDETERMINES the eternal state of every individual before they ever exist, yet somehow holds them accountable for their sins, appears cruel and contrary to the nature of God. (Yes, I know, that's not how Calvinists describe what they believe -- but it is what most often people take away from their arguments).

That God gives people the ability to believe, and many choose not to, simply affirms the love, mercy and grace of God, as well as the fallenness of all mankind. Man's failure to accept God's gift isn't God's desire -- but He does foreknow, enable and allow His creations to choose.

JDale

 

[ccdnt]

Is anyone that believes in OSAS going to answere this question (posted twice earlier)?

Those that believe the Bible teaches OSAS believe that those that believe it teaches otherwise are mistaken. Why would anyone want the Bible to not teach OSAS? I would venture a guess that some or most that do not believe in OSAS would like for it to be true (if not for themselves, then for loved ones that they have seen profess to be a Christian, show fruit, then fall away and die in that state). I do not read the Bible and do my best to find that it does not teach OSAS. I read it to find what it does teach about salvation. If I thought that OSAS was what was taught in Scripture, I would proclaim this, teach this, and defend it. However, from all that I have read, I do not see this. I see many warnings in Scripture against falling away. I see conditional statements regarding salvation... (if/then). I understand why people would want OSAS to be the correct teaching, but, for those that believe in OSAS, why would you think people would not want the Bible to teach OSAS?

 

[JDale]

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All of this still does NOT prove that we can lose (be plucked from the FATHER's hand) our salvation...........


We are secure in CHRIST![/quote]

That's because believers CANNOT "LOSE" their salvation! Believers, however, can cease to believe....and thus "make shipwreck" of faith, or "fall away."

And YES -- we are SECURE in Christ! AMEN!

JDale

 

[JDale]

Before Adam sinned, he was never a BORN AGIAN child of GOD...

The context is.....

When does a BORN AGIAN child of GOD become unborn?

Adam does not apply here..............

The "New Birth" is an allegorical picture of spiritual regeneration. One can only push its meaning so far. While Adam cannot be used or applied in the case cited by BR, neither can we compare "spiritual regeneration" to the literal, physical birth of humans. That far exceeds the meaning intended by the Lord, and the Apostle who recorded His words.

That a "born again" person can CEASE to trust in Christ and turn from the faith he/she once held is a Scriptural POSSIBILITY (Heberws 6:4-6; 10:26-31).

JDale

 

[ccdnt]

All of this still does NOT prove that we can lose (be plucked from the FATHER's hand) our salvation...........


We are secure in CHRIST!

A person that is abiding in Christ and then chooses to leave Christ of his own will has not lost his salvation nor has been "plucked" from the Father's hand. He has chosen to remove himself from the Father's hand and, thus, has chosen to turn away from / forfeit his salvation.

We are secure in Christ provided we continue to remain in Christ.

 

[JDale]

The context can NOT be that one can lose thier salvation, because this concept is never taught in the scripture..............

True AAA -- The Scripture DOES NOT teach one can "lose their salvation." The Scripture DOES teach that it is possible for a believer to cease trusting in Christ, and therefore forfeit salvation -- which is apostasy.

JDale

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ccdnt: //We are secure in Christ provided we continue to remain in Christ.//

Continuance is a good work. This salvation is
by 98% Christ and 2% personal continuance.
Jesus Saves (PERIOD).
I'd rather think that continuance is a by-product
of salvation.

Faith is a good work. Salvation by faith is
by 98% Christ and 2% personal faith.
Jesus Saves (PERIOD).
I'd rather think that faith is a by-product
of salvation.

Baptism is a good work. Salvation by Baptism is
by 98% Christ and 2% personal baptism.
Jesus Saves (PERIOD).
I'd rather think that Baptism is a by-product
of salvation.

 

[AAA]

True AAA -- The Scripture DOES NOT teach one can "lose their salvation." The Scripture DOES teach that it is possible for a believer to cease trusting in Christ, and therefore forfeit salvation -- which is apostasy.

JDale

Agreed......One can be an apostastate...However:

If a so-called christian ever loses thier salvation, then, we have to ask ourselves: Was this person ever saved to begin with?

Just curious, Is this what they teach at Northside Baptist Church, West Columbia, South Carolina ?

I have heard some Free Will Baptist believe that they can lose their salvation as well.

I was raised SBC and they believe as I do: We can never lose our salvation........

 

[AAA]

Ccdnt: //We are secure in Christ provided we continue to remain in Christ.//

Continuance is a good work. This salvation is
by 98% Christ and 2% personal continuance.
Jesus Saves (PERIOD).
I'd rather think that continuance is a by-product
of salvation.

Faith is a good work. Salvation by faith is
by 98% Christ and 2% personal faith.
Jesus Saves (PERIOD).
I'd rather think that faith is a by-product
of salvation.

Baptism is a good work. Salvation by Baptism is
by 98% Christ and 2% personal baptism.
Jesus Saves (PERIOD).
I'd rather think that Baptism is a by-product
of salvation.

AMEN!

Salvation by GRACE 100% the work of GOD and 0% the work of men......

God saves by GRACE!

 

[AAA]

Oh, I agree with you completely.

However, I was trying to give you a tool to use.

Oh, and you can't simply ignore the passages that the other side is posting.

That being said, hopefully I'll be finished with work early enough to be able to spend the time with a proper reply to the previously mentioned post. Right now, I'm doing a job that I detest, and wish I had not accepted. I don't like repair work; it never looks as good as new work.

I will be in prayer about your job and I hope every else is wll with you.........

 

[AAA]

That is answered in the Scriptures:
"the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God (Luke 3:38)

I do not believe that he was lost, but I do NOT believe that he was BORN AGAIN eitheir, and that is what we are dealing with on this thread...

Can a BORN AGAIN child of GOD lose thier salvation? and the answer is NO!

 

[AAA]

Will you then explain how the verses I gave several posts ago (in post # 42) were taken out of context?

Did they "fall away" ,because they (false converts: 1JN. 2:19) were NEVER in the faith?

Did they "fall away", because they lost their salvation? If. so, how then were they plucked from the Father's hand?

Did they "fall away", because they gave up thier salvation?

This is NOT an arguement of O.S.A.S. vs. those who do not believe in it!

The OP is dealing with the "SECURITY of the believer" VS those who do NOT believe we are secure by the GRACE of GOD through JESUS shed BLOOD and the keeping power of the HOLY GHOST!

Thos who believe that they can lose thier salvation are the ones that the OP is ddirected towards.

 

[ccdnt]

Ccdnt: //We are secure in Christ provided we continue to remain in Christ.//

Continuance is a good work. This salvation is
by 98% Christ and 2% personal continuance.
Jesus Saves (PERIOD).
I'd rather think that continuance is a by-product
of salvation.

Faith is a good work. Salvation by faith is
by 98% Christ and 2% personal faith.
Jesus Saves (PERIOD).
I'd rather think that faith is a by-product
of salvation.

Baptism is a good work. Salvation by Baptism is
by 98% Christ and 2% personal baptism.
Jesus Saves (PERIOD).
I'd rather think that Baptism is a by-product
of salvation.

Why is "continuing to believe in Christ/to remain in Christ/to have faith in Christ/etc." considered a work? Is there a Biblical reference that says this? Christ will not save someone that does not want to be saved. A person must choose to believe on Jesus Christ, believe in his death and resurrection, accept Him as Savior,... to be saved. Why are those acts not considered works? Initially having faith in Christ is not a work, but continuing to have faith is? - Why?

(Also, I never said that one must be baptized to be saved)

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ccdnt: //Initially having faith in Christ is not a work, but continuing to have faith is? - Why?//

I certainly didn't claim that.

Let me speak clearer:

Initial Faith is a good work. Salvation by initial faith is
by 98% Christ and 2% personal initial faith.
Jesus Saves (PERIOD).
I'd rather think that initial faith is a by-product
of salvation.

Continuing Faith is a good work.
Salvation by continuing faith is
by 98% Christ and 2% personal faith.
Jesus Saves (PERIOD).
I'd rather think that continuing faith is a by-product
of salvation.

Ccdnt: // (Also, I never said that one must be baptized to be saved) //

I never claimed you did. Come on ??? there are 100s of
readers and only a few posters. I'm posting to all the
readers, not just the noisy one(s).

 

[Ed Edwards]

Did they "fall away" ,because they (false converts: 1JN. 2:19) were NEVER in the faith?

Did they "fall away", because they lost their salvation? If. so, how then were they plucked from the Father's hand?

Did they "fall away", because they gave up thier salvation?

This is NOT an arguement of O.S.A.S. vs. those who do not believe in it!

The OP is dealing with the "SECURITY of the believer" VS those who do NOT believe we are secure by the GRACE of GOD through JESUS shed BLOOD and the keeping power of the HOLY GHOST!

Thos who believe that they can lose thier salvation are the ones that the OP is ddirected towards.

Amen, AAA -- you are so RIGHT ON! :thumbs: