". . .you are not among my sheep." (John 10:26)

[JonShaff]

"but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep." (John 10:26)

My Arminian brothers have a problem when it comes to who takes credit for the salvation of their souls, and the point at which they have an issue is at the point of faith.

When looking at two people who have heard the gospel, one saved and one not, the Arminian gives himself credit for why he is counted among the children of God. He reasons that he chose God while his neighbor didn't. There was something in him that his neighbor was lacking. He responded while his neighbor didn't, so he naturally assumes that he was either smarter, more humble, more receptive, more grateful. . .

What he fails to see is that the reason he hears and responds while his neighbor does not is that he is one of God's chosen. He is among the fold of Christ. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." (John 10:27) His sheep follow Him because there are His. They are already His! They belong to Him!. The reason that the Arminian's neighbor does not follow Christ is that his neighbor is not His. "but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep." (John 10:26)

According to Jesus, His sheep follow Him because they were His sheep to begin with.

May we all give glory to God for both His grace and the faith which receives it.

The immediate context of this passage should be taken into consideration. Our Lord Jesus was speaking to a *specific* group of *People* who were present at the Lord's statements. Some were following Yahweh and appropriating the Scriptures into their lives with sincerity and a desire to follow Him. Others were adherents to the Traditions of Men. Some were *already* sheep, others were not. This is not speaking about some odd *preexisting* fold of (pre)eternal existence. Our Lord Jesus is speaking in the present tense--Those who can presently hear his voice--are either *currently* sheep or they are not. Those who are in right relationship with the Father *WILL ALSO* hear the SON.

 

[thatbrian]

The immediate context of this passage should be taken into consideration. Our Lord Jesus was speaking to a *specific* group of *People* who were present at the Lord's statements. Some were following Yahweh and appropriating the Scriptures into their lives with sincerity and a desire to follow Him. Others were adherents to the Traditions of Men. Some were *already* sheep, others were not. This is not speaking about some odd *preexisting* fold of (pre)eternal existence. Our Lord Jesus is speaking in the present tense--Those who can presently hear his voice--are either *currently* sheep or they are not. Those who are in right relationship with the Father *WILL ALSO* hear the SON.

So, the good and upright who sought Jesus are His sheep, and the sinners who did not - are not. Is that right?

 

[TCassidy]

So is "steal" or "lie"....

Yes. Both action verbs. Both something you do.

You are acting as though since they are action verbs that they would similarly fit a Biblical definition of "works".

Don't be ridiculous. Both the above are verbs. "Works" is a noun, as I clearly said in post #68. ""Works" is a noun. Something you have."

No one believes this.

Are you saying nobody in this thread has at least a 3rd grade understanding of English grammar?

Yes, it's not a "work" in any meaningful sense, and you are too intelligent to believe this.

Of course it is. It is something you do. "Work, to do something that requires physical effort." Snoring, even just breathing, requires physical effort.

You conflated a Biblical definition of "works" with "doing" essentially anything or subsumed all action verbs into "works".

Please. You have already been corrected for this dishonesty. "Works" is a noun. "Work" is a verb.

Me too. Everyone on this board at least thinks they do.

Yes, we all do. So why did you accuse me of not believing?

The "truth" that action verbs are by very definition synonymous with a Biblical definition of "works"?

Again, the same dishonesty. "Work" in this context, is a verb, something you do. "Works" in this context, is a noun. (It can also be used as a verb such as "he works for a living." But in this context it is a noun, "his good works.")

No, you certainly can't.....I don't think anyone buys your line of argument on this one. I half think you don't.

Don't accuse me of not believing what I post.

I could be mistaken.

You are. Quite sadly.

 

[thatbrian]

Yes. They don't believe because they are not His.

Those that do believe, believe because they are His.

Very simple. And again proves our point.

That's plainly what the text says, so I don't understand why our friends are opposed to it.

 

[TCassidy]

That's plainly what the text says, so I don't understand why our friends are opposed to it.

Because it disproves their theory regarding soteriology so it can't mean what it says.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Yes. Both action verbs. Both something you do.

Don't be ridiculous. Both the above are verbs. "Works" is a noun, as I clearly said in post #68. ""Works" is a noun. Something you have."

Are you saying nobody in this thread has at least a 3rd grade understanding of English grammar?

Of course it is. It is something you do. "Work, to do something that requires physical effort." Snoring, even just breathing, requires physical effort.

Please. You have already been corrected for this dishonesty. "Works" is a noun. "Work" is a verb.

Yes, we all do. So why did you accuse me of not believing?

Again, the same dishonesty. "Work" in this context, is a verb, something you do. "Works" in this context, is a noun. (It can also be used as a verb such as "he works for a living." But in this context it is a noun, "his good works.")

Don't accuse me of not believing what I post.

You are. Quite sadly.

Dude........
I doubt ANYONE is buying what you are selling here.
You spent time arguing about the cardiovascular effort demanded to SNORE in order to prove a point of Theology??????

Frankly, That's pathetic.

1Ti 6:4
He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings.
You are playing games with parts of speech.........T.C.

NO ONE IS BUYING THIS.

Perhaps, you assume everyone who disagrees with your Theology is so irreparably stupid that they can't see this.
You are officially suggesting that I strike you as one with a less than third grade command of English language and grammar.
That's your argument?

Previously, T.C. you sounded like an intelligent guy making a rather cunning and tricky argument which you threw against the wall hoping it might stick.......Hoping no one would call you on it.

Fair enough:
I've thrown pasta against a wall hoping it would stick too...thinking maybe, just maybe, no one would call me on this one. I don't blame you for trying. I've tried it myself.

But you got called on this one.
You are a smart enough guy.....I'm not going to deceitfully suggest you have less than a third-grade education as you so graciously suggested about me......(just like Christ would have done no doubt.)

I'm telling you this in order to preserve the (actually quite significant) respect you presently possess on this board....this argument is a loser for you.

It won't stick.

No one is going to buy the idea that action verbs are essentially synonymous with a Biblically defined definition of "works" as opposed to "grace"......it was a nice try, but take my advice and give it up. Insisting upon it degrades you.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

That's plainly what the text says, so I don't understand why our friends are opposed to it.

We are not your friends........and never will be from the time the semi-gnostics murdered Michael Servetus till now, we know the cloth you are cut from. From the time the "Reformers" began torturing the Anabaptists and drowning their women and children in frozen rivers, we know what semi-gnostics are all about.
We know full well that Calvinists happily spilled the blood of dissenters in the past, I've no illusions you wouldn't do it in the future...ask Aaron....

Don't call us your friends...
We're dissenters from your Augustine-inspired Semi-Gnosticism desperately hoping you won't achieve the political power sufficient to murder non-determinists again.

 

[TCassidy]

I doubt ANYONE is buying what you are selling here.

Nothing I have posted is for sale. It is the truth.

Frankly, That's pathetic.

I agree. It is pathetic that you don't understand that an action verb is, well, an action, something you do.

Perhaps, you assume everyone who disagrees with your Theology is so irreparably stupid that they can't see this.

No, only those who lack a 3rd grade understanding of English grammar, specifically that an action verb is an action, something you do.

You are officially suggesting that I strike you as one with a less than third grade command of English language and grammar.

Perhaps you fell asleep that day?

But you got called on this one.

How does your claiming that an action verb is not an action verb "call me on this one?"

No one is going to buy the idea that action verbs are essentially synonymous with a Biblically defined definition of "works" as opposed to "grace"..

And once again you prove you have little or no understanding of English grammar. "Work" in this context, is a verb. "Works" in this context is a noun. I have told you this before. Maybe you fell asleep again?

However, it is good to see that you finally acknowledge that Grace (regeneration) precedes faith, repentance, and obedience. Perhaps we are finally getting somewhere.

.it was a nice try, but take my advice and give it up. Insisting upon it degrades you.

Insisting that an action verb is an action verb is degrading? I think it is the other way around. Denying that an action verb is an action verb seems to me to degrade you, at least your understanding of 3rd grade English grammar.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Nothing I have posted is for sale. It is the truth.

I agree. It is pathetic that you don't understand that an action verb is, well, an action, something you do.

No, only those who lack a 3rd grade understanding of English grammar, specifically that an action verb is an action, something you do.

Perhaps you fell asleep that day?

How does your claiming that an action verb is not an action verb "call me on this one?"

And once again you prove you have little or no understanding of English grammar. "Work" in this context, is a verb. "Works" in this context is a noun. I have told you this before. Maybe you fell asleep again?

However, it is good to see that you finally acknowledge that Grace (regeneration) precedes faith, repentance, and obedience. Perhaps we are finally getting somewhere.

Insisting that an action verb is an action verb is degrading? I think it is the other way around. Denying that an action verb is an action verb seems to me to degrade you, at least your understanding of 3rd grade English grammar.

Seriously, this is your argument???
"You're stupid Heir.....and you don't understand third-grade grammar....blah blah blah...
non-determinists are so stupid....blah blah blah..."

Idiots...didn't pass third grade...blah, blah, blah...
That's the sum-total of your argument.....
You seem to think we haven't heard this brilliant line of argument before.
I'd say get more creative, because at this point, I'm simply bored by you.

I'll listen to some Christ-honoring music on the radio and come back hoping you say something interesting.

 

[utilyan]

I hated God. I hide from Him. I did not seek Him. He sought, found, and saved me, though, and my lips will praise Him for all eternity, because He saved His enemy. He saved a scoffer. He saved a pig of a human being - a wretch like me, not because I sought Him, for I did not. Not because I served Him, for I did not, but because He set His love on me. Can you imagine?! He set His love on me, the least deserving creature on the face of the Earth. . .

"Can you imagine?!"

Its only a shock and surprise that God is "half of a jerk" to folks who expected him to be a complete jerk.


The other side of the coin I wouldn't be surprised if God were a complete hero who sets his love on all.

You see False Humility is cute, trying to pick up on the crumbs of actual faith.

Sincerity? you don't have it son.....not yet.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I hated God.

I never hated God....
I was raised in a Godly Christian home knowing and understanding the majesty and wonder and grace of God.
I never hated him....

I pity your impoverished philosophy full of God-hatred.

I hide from Him

That was stupid.
From a child I knew the Holy Scriptures which can make you wise unto salvation:
2Ti 3:14
But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
I had a Godly witness, a Lois and a Eunice to raise me up in the fear and admonition of the Lord.
I'm sad that your upbringing was so Spiritually pathetic and impoverished.
Mine (provided by non-Calvinist parents) was not....
I NEVER hated God as you seemed to..
How pathetically sad for you. My parents loved me and read Scripture and raised me in the fear and admonition of the Lord, therefore, I never ran from him as you claim.

I did not seek Him. He sought, found, and saved me, though, and my lips will praise Him for all eternity, because He saved His enemy. He saved a scoffer. He saved a pig of a human being - a wretch like me, not because I sought Him, for I did not. Not because I served Him, for I did not, but because He set His love on me

Good. God is gracious.

Can you imagine?

Easily...
Because I know the Scriptures, and therefore I understand that God made man in his OWN IMAGE. God made man, and loved mankind and he at his first advent BECAME a man in order to save him from his sins.
God LOVES his image-bearer...so much in fact, that he became one to save him from his sins.
It's simple.
You wouldn't understand that perhaps, not being from a Godly parentage which actually taught you the love of God...and the Word of God....but I was fortunate.
I'm not a Gnostic heretic:
It's easy for me to imagine that God doesn't hate mankind. Even sinners.
I'm not a "Calvinist".

I'm not a semi-Gnostic.

I know that nothing in the Scripture implies that God loathes his image-bearer.
He loves his image-bearer, and doesn't consider physicality, matter or the material universe evil.
He created it, and intends to save it just as he loved and created man-kind...hence he incarnated in the likeness of human flesh to redeem him.

So, sorry, no, I don't relate to your predisposition towards heresy.

He set His love on me, the least deserving creature on the face of the Earth. . .

You do not believe that you are the "least deserving" creature on Earth....No one believes that about themselves. I work in a prison full of child-rapists....do you REALLY believe that???

No, you don't....and you think we're stupid enough to believe that you actually think that.

That statement isn't holy, it isn't humble, it isn't righteous...
It's simply OBTUSE.

 

[TCassidy]

"You're stupid Heir.

non-determinists are so stupid.

Idiots.

didn't pass third grade.

I did not say any of that. Please don't lie about what I posted.

 

[JonShaff]

So, the good and upright who sought Jesus are His sheep, and the sinners who did not - are not. Is that right?

Christ Himself assumed He was speaking to people who were already born-again (and some were not born-again VS 26.-- also "Hirelings, thieves"). It's quite simple really. You and many others who claim this passage is some pre-eternal sheep fold passage, eisegete the text by imposing your theological framework.

Christ is simply saying, "those who are truly born-again amongst you WILL follow me," (John 10:4). They belong to Christ, because they Belong to the Father. He speaks of "God-fearers"-Gentiles who are also born-again--Later in the passage (Vs. 16).

Once again, this is present tense dialogue with people that would understand and be in direct relationship with what our Lord Jesus is speaking on.

 

[thatbrian]

I never hated God....
I was raised in a Godly Christian home knowing and understanding the majesty and wonder and grace of God.
I never hated him....

I pity your impoverished philosophy full of God-hatred.

That was stupid.
From a child I knew the Holy Scriptures which can make you wise unto salvation:
2Ti 3:14
But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
I had a Godly witness, a Lois and a Eunice to raise me up in the fear and admonition of the Lord.
I'm sad that your upbringing was so Spiritually pathetic and impoverished.
Mine (provided by non-Calvinist parents) was not....
I NEVER hated God as you seemed to..
How pathetically sad for you. My parents loved me and read Scripture and raised me in the fear and admonition of the Lord, therefore, I never ran from him as you claim.

Good. God is gracious.

Easily...
Because I know the Scriptures, and therefore I understand that God made man in his OWN IMAGE. God made man, and loved mankind and he at his first advent BECAME a man in order to save him from his sins.
God LOVES his image-bearer...so much in fact, that he became one to save him from his sins.
It's simple.
You wouldn't understand that perhaps, not being from a Godly parentage which actually taught you the love of God...and the Word of God....but I was fortunate.
I'm not a Gnostic heretic:
It's easy for me to imagine that God doesn't hate mankind. Even sinners.
I'm not a "Calvinist".

I'm not a semi-Gnostic.

I know that nothing in the Scripture implies that God loathes his image-bearer.
He loves his image-bearer, and doesn't consider physicality, matter or the material universe evil.
He created it, and intends to save it just as he loved and created man-kind...hence he incarnated in the likeness of human flesh to redeem him.

So, sorry, no, I don't relate to your predisposition towards heresy.

You do not believe that you are the "least deserving" creature on Earth....No one believes that about themselves. I work in a prison full of child-rapists....do you REALLY believe that???

No, you don't....and you think we're stupid enough to believe that you actually think that.

That statement isn't holy, it isn't humble, it isn't righteous...
It's simply OBTUSE.

I'm happy to hear that you are such a wonderful person, HeirofSalvation. Your high view of yourself might just be why you didn't feel the need to read and study the scriptures carefully. Here's a few texts youve missed with the benefit of your upbringing:

For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us (Romans 5:6-8).

Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (Genesis 6:5)

For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness, nor shall evil dwell with You. The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity. (Psalm 5:4–5)

The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers. (Psalm 5:5)

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (Romans 3:23)

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. (Psalm 51:5)

Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.


[1] And you were dead in the trespasses and sins [2] in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—[3] among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. [4] But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [5] even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—[6] and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, [7] so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:1–7 ESV)


​

There are countless more, but this next one is especially fitting. It demonstrates that my upbringing, which caused me to have need of God's saving grace just might have been superior to yours with "Godly parentage", which obviously has kept you from such a need.

And Jesus answered them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.​

 

[thatbrian]

Christ is simply saying, "those who are truly born-again amongst you WILL follow me,"

Yes. That's true. Those who are born, "from above" are those who follow Christ. However, God's election is not the same thing as salvation. The elect must "come to Him", and the reason they do is explained in John 6, John 10, and elsewhere.

See below that unsaved men go through the Door (Christ). They are called and respond prior to entering and being saved.

So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. [8] All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. [9] I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. (John 10:7-9 ESV)

 

[thatbrian]

We are not your friends

After reading your posts, that's clear, but I often refer to those of differing opinion regarding God's sovereignty in election as friends because someone who has an errant view is still my brother. I might vigorously debate him, but not hate him, as you obviously hate me. I do find self-righteousness a particularly vile sin, and I might go so far as to say that I hate self-righteous prigs, but then again, self-righteous prigs are not my brothers.

I've no illusions you wouldn't do it in the future

You might not have illusions, but you clearly have delusions, paranoid delusions, if you think that I would kill you.

Don't call us your friends

You may hate me. That's your prerogative, but you can't make me hate you - friend.

 

[JonShaff]

Yes. That's true. Those who are born, "from above" are those who follow Christ. However, God's election is not the same thing as salvation. The elect must "come to Him", and the reason they do is explained in John 6, John 10, and elsewhere.

See below that unsaved men go through the Door (Christ). They are called and respond prior to entering and being saved.

So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. [8] All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. [9] I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. (John 10:7-9 ESV)

Once again, you impose your theological framework into the text instead of letting the text speak for itself. Christ said he shall be saved--as in finding safety. The "thieves and robbers" were Israel's "shepherds" (vs.8) (leaders) who brought no safety (Physical/Spiritual or otherwise) at all. The context of this stems from Chapter 9, where the leaders wanted to kick out the man whom Christ healed. Our Lord Jesus is defending that man and gives confidence to His sheep in the present tense that He will lead them, bring them safely along the way, and will not cast them out.

You think this chapter is about election and you are dead wrong. Read Chapter 9-10 together. Stop eisegeting the text.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I might vigorously debate him, but not hate him, as you obviously hate me.

I don't hate you at all. I don't even know you. I didn't imply that I hate you. I just have zero faith in your proclaimed warm feelings towards us non-Calvinists.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I'm happy to hear that you are such a wonderful person, HeirofSalvation. Your high view of yourself might just be why you didn't feel the need to read and study the scriptures carefully. Here's a few texts youve missed with the benefit of your upbringing:

For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us (Romans 5:6-8).

Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (Genesis 6:5)

For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness, nor shall evil dwell with You. The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity. (Psalm 5:4–5)

The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers. (Psalm 5:5)

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (Romans 3:23)

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. (Psalm 51:5)

Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.


[1] And you were dead in the trespasses and sins [2] in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—[3] among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. [4] But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [5] even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—[6] and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, [7] so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:1–7 ESV)


​

There are countless more, but this next one is especially fitting. It demonstrates that my upbringing, which caused me to have need of God's saving grace just might have been superior to yours with "Godly parentage", which obviously has kept you from such a need.

And Jesus answered them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.​

Calvinists are so cute.
Boastfully beating their chests in the street so we can all see how humble you are. These public protestations of your own sinfulness. I've seen the Calvinist "I am more pious because I wallow in more self-loathing" game. That's the bit I'm not buying.
No one is suggesting we aren't or weren't all sinners in need of a savior. I just never bought into the Calvinists need to competitively flagellate myself publically, always publically and "humbly" insisting on being the WORST sinner ever. Truth is, you were probably not much worse before you knew Christ than many many many others. Calvinists just love to publically demonstrate their pious self-loathing. I've never bought into the need to do that. It's a private competition betwixt yourselves to demonstrate that you know you were the worst person ever born.
It's a false humility and a conceit.

 

[TCassidy]

Okay, stop the infantile posturing and get back on topic. I will delete off topic posts.