Featured The pre-wrath rapture view

Of course I can.....by the way. ...you did not back up that this time is a future period.
Jesus warned those He spoke with in Mt 24 of this judgement using the imagery of the woman in travail. ....He said there were some standing there who would see these things....it happened just as He said.....included the temple being made desolate. ....you must deny this to hold the position that in times past you say you do not hold to.

 

Apples and oranges.
First deal with Jeremiah 30 and then go to Matthew 24. One thing at a time. I don't deny anything.

Jeremiah is speaking of a future time. He is speaking of a time when both Israel and Judah are together as one. At that time Jeremiah was writing ca. 600 B.C., or more likely sometime after 586 when the captivity was complete--when they were not one, but separated and in captivity. Jeremiah eventually went with Daniel.

This is a prophecy, a prophetic passage telling of a future return from captivity. However, it can only take place after Jacob's Trouble has taken place (The Great Tribulation), and that had not taken place.
There was no Great Tribulation at that time. Israel had gone into captivity in 722 and Israel in 586 B.C.
You are just guessing.

And then there is the restoration. When was Israel restored. In 70 A.D.? Really? Are you serious?

Jer 30:18 Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.
Jer 30:19 And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
Jer 30:20 Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them.
--Is this what happened in 70 A.D.?????????????????????????

 

70 ad was.future for Jeremiah. ....70 ad was future from Jesus teaching in Mt 24......
Jesus quotes from Daniel.....he speaks of the Tribulation that came upon that generation.

By the way...once the cross took place and the temple was destroyed. ..there cannot be any earthly holy place any longer for Daniels prophecy to be fulfilled

 

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."There cannot be..." Is this God speaking? or just the opinion of Icon?
I think the latter. Your inability to look at scripture and harmonize it with other scripture is apparent.

The scriptures remain true and infallible as ever:

Jer 30:18 Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.
Jer 30:19 And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
Jer 30:20 Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them.

God's elect, as defined here, Israel, will be restored to their land. That has not happened yet. But you do not believe in the promises of God. In fact you say that God cannot do this.
There cannot be any earthly holy place any longer for Daniel's prophecy to be fulfilled."
Wow! You certainly limit God don't you? Do you always tie his hands and tell him what he can and cannot do??

 

Unlike you.....I understand Heaven itself is the real Holy Place......the earthly figures of the true...Hebrews 8-10 have given way to the True ....Perhaps you should read the book of Hebrews and learn of this.
Then you could swing around and read Ephesians 2 and learn that God's elect are comprised of both Jew and gentile.
There is now one new man in Christ......you could discover many things in these two books if God allows you to.
Furthermore Jesus rules and reigns as Lord and King right now from heaven.
In Daniel 7 we see His ascending to Heavenly glory.
John saw Him on the throne in Rev.4-5.
I would say it is you tangled up in your dispensational straight jacket that lacks eyes to see.
The Servant of the Lord is restoring the elect remnant of Israel along with those elect gentiles right now as the gospel goes worldwide Isa.49:1-8
Of course you deny the new covenant is for gentiles. I believe it is the new covenant happening fight now.
Of course you deny the Kingdom is reigning in the midst of this fallen world. I believe the Kingdom comes everyday as the gospel spreads worldwide.
The promised Kingdom was part of the gospel preaching of the Apostles...not just the historic facts of the gospel Paul quotes in 1 Cor 15:1-4......you of course ignore where it says according to the scriptures....because of your dispensational error you lack any capacity to bring truth from the OT prophets and apply the full gospel. THE SUFFERING SERVANT coming to institute His Kingdom which includes salvation from sin now, and The Heavenly rule in the hearts of His elect sheep.....all things which you have denied over and over.
I will stay with the biblical model rather than your stories and denials of fulfilled prophecy. ....this is That...that was spoken by the Prophet Joel.

 

18 “This is what the Lord says:

“‘I will restore the fortunes of Jacob’s tents
and have compassion on his dwellings;
the city will be rebuilt on her ruins,
and the palace will stand in its proper place.
19 From them will come songs of thanksgiving
and the sound of rejoicing.
I will add to their numbers,
and they will not be decreased;
I will bring them honor,
and they will not be disdained.
20 Their children will be as in days of old,
and their community will be established before me;
I will punish all who oppress them.
21 Their leader will be one of their own;
their ruler will arise from among them.
I will bring him near and he will come close to me—
for who is he who will devote himself
to be close to me?’
declares the Lord.
22 “‘So you will be my people,
and I will be your God.’”
See, the storm of the Lord
will burst out in wrath,
a driving wind swirling down
on the heads of the wicked.
24 The fierce anger of the Lord will not turn back
until he fully accomplishes
the purposes of his heart.
In days to come
you will understand this.​

This happened before, during or immediately following 70ad?

 

[QUOTE="Iconoclast, post: 2191094, member: 10065"
Furthermore Jesus rules and reigns as Lord and King right now from heaven.
In Daniel 7 we see His ascending to Heavenly glory.
John saw Him on the throne in Rev.4-5.[/QUOTE]

Certainly, "John saw Him on the throne in Rev. 4-5.

You take that as literal.

But then you take as allegorical the millennial reign. That doesn't make sense! There is abundant statements in the OT that point to that time.

But more to the point.

Why would the Lord Jesus construct the prayer which includes the following words, if they were not to be taken as factual?

"Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on EARTH as it is in heaven."

How is this present earth including every single person in any manner responding to the will of God as the angelic hosts of heaven do inconsistency and fervor, or as those that cry Holy?

The question isn't about sovereignty, it is about obedience. Does the whole of creation in every aspect seek to do the will of God as it is sought in the heavens?

 

Hello agedman ,
I have not worked on this passage in particular.
I see in Mt 3 John declares ....the axe is laid at the root of the tree.....the theocracy of ot Israel was going to be cut down for not bearing fruit as it should have....Mt 21:43
God had kept an elect remnant. ...Isa 1:9.....quoted in Romans.
The Kingdom was announced by John, then Jesus and the apostles.
At the last supper Jesus declares the New Covenant inauguration .....there is slow steady growth....as in the parable of the mustard seed.
The sign of the ....Son of Man in heaven....was the coming in judgment of the covenant curses of Deut 28-33.....mt.5 :20-25.

 

(Certainly, "John saw Him on the throne in Rev. 4-5.

You take that as literal.

But then you take as allegorical the millennial reign. That doesn't make sense! There is abundant statements in the OT that point to that time.

But more to the point.

Why would the Lord Jesus construct the prayer which includes the following words, if they were not to be taken as factual?

"Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on EARTH as it is in heaven."

How is this present earth including every single person in any manner responding to the will of God as the angelic hosts of heaven do inconsistency and fervor, or as those that cry Holy?

The question isn't about sovereignty, it is about obedience. Does the whole of creation in every aspect seek to do the will of God as it is sought in the heavens?[/QUOTE])



Again....I take both as literal.....lk 17 :20-21 explains the literal truth of how the Kingdom comes....not with outward observation.
It is a literal reign of Jesus from the Heavenly throne....Hebrews 12 says he speaks from HEAVEN...12:24-29
Then it tells us...WE receiving a Kingdom ....let us serve God.

 

Icon, you're dismissing all of Romans 11...Not to mention majority of Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Revelation. Calvinism falls short and one of its major failures is its inability to be consistent with prophetic passages. And Prophecy is a major component that GOD has used to demonstrate His foreknowledge, Truth, validity and power....not to mention Sovereignty.

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Also......if what I put forth is mistaken....I would not.mind at all if there is a premillennialism scenerio that unfolds....
After all it is Gods truth and believers have held 4 different end time calendar s.......so 3 of them are mistaken....

If I am raptured next week..( rather than the last day)..I will not be saying ....no wait, this does not fit my calendar...it cannot happen,lol

 

In lk19:12-27. Notice....there were enemies who did not welcome the reign of the King......verse 14, vs 27....they are cast away.

 

I was first taught and learned the classic premillennialism view....so I am quite familiar with it.
Studying Hebrews for a couple of years cracked that view up for me......ye more I considered the OT texts, primarily Isa 40-66...... I began to see how the historic church viewed these passages.....instead of fighting against it.....which I did for awhile.....I tried to understand how it was possible that these men looked at the same passages and came up with their understanding. .....
I am still open to correction and still very much a work in progress but I do not blindly follow the one system that said it was the only truth and all others are on the precipice of heresy.
I live and view it from a post mill/or optimistic amill. view.

 

Hebrews 12 "28 Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken..."

This is not in past tense as if is already accomplished.

The passage is to be taken in terms of "since we (do) receive a kingdom..." or "since we (are) receiving a kingdom..." (NIV)

To place the kingdom as that which is now (in the sense of a physical kingdom) should not be considered accurate to Hebrews 12.

However, there is that building of a kingdom (that is the people of the kingdom) that takes place in the ages. It is that meaning (imo) the the Lord Jesus was giving when responding "My kingdom is not of this world." The kingdom is not made up of the fleshly lusts and pride of this world, the pomp, the political schemes, the trappings meant purely to impress that the world puts great esteem upon.

Rather, the kingdom that returns with the King of Kings, is constructed of believers who will rule and reign with Him. Hence, we "receive" a kingdom.

There is no mention of "kingdom" as existing in the heavens. Rather, a bride and her Savior.

 

Hello Jon S
I do not think so....in fact...it is those passages that made me swing over.....for example Paul quotes from Isa 17x from Rom 9-15.

Try this Jon......read isa......49-to 66.....everytime it mentions the gentiles...like isa 54 for example....and it is quoted.in the nt....see what or how it is linked.
Remember it was Israel that looked for the literal earthly reign, and *Jesus said it would happen different from what they thought.......when you look v at the OT prophecies....Zion and Jerusalem speak of the heavenly...not the earthly Jerusalem.....gal 4 heb12.
Try reading your ot passages that you think are yet future and see how they fit doing it this way.
When I get to a keyboard later I will offer the verses I speak of...but start with isa...and look at Joel 2-3.....

 

Agedman.....I believe when we read Kingdom in the Nt....many times it is literally.....the reign of the heavens.
Look in Youngs literal translation.

 

There is no reference in Jer.30 to heaven.
Jer 30:18 Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.
Jer 30:19 And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
Jer 30:20 Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them.
--This is a scene on earth. "The city shall be builded upon her own heap." Are their "heaps" in heaven?
Your conception of heaven is that it is a war-torn trashy place such as Syria is now? I pity you.
You just toss the scripture aside and read whatever story you want into the Bible. I suppose the Bible speaks of aliens from Mars as well?

"I will multiply them and they shall not be a few..." Is there reproduction in heaven? In the gospels Jesus said there wasn't. You do err not knowing the scriptures.

In the OT God called a people out for himself. They are the nation of Israel. They are the elect of God.
In this day and age God is also calling a nation out for himself. Some day he will come for them. They are called the Bride of Christ. John described himself as a friend of the bride but not a part of the bride. In this day and age both Jew and Gentile must be saved the same way--through the blood of Christ, through that same gospel message. When the rapture occurs and Jacob's Trouble or the Great Tribulation begins, this age of grace will be over. It will be a day of judgment, near the end of which Christ will come for his own, the Jews.

And yet the Bible specifically states that Satan is "the god of this world." Has Satan blinded your eyes as well to this truth?

You are deceived.

You don't know what the kingdom is.
You probably don't know the meaning of the Lord's prayer:
"Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done."

The suffering servant came to die for our sins. It could not be otherwise.
He will come again as the king of kings to rule on this earth. But for now it is Satan that is the god of this world.
The same was true in the Book of Job when the Lord allowed Satan to have his way with Job.

You still have no decent answer for these scriptures:
Jer 30:18 Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.
Jer 30:19 And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
Jer 30:20 Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them.

 

Do you see then the Great tribulation as what happened to tsreal in AD 70?

If so, then would not that also mean that the second coming happened at that time?

 

There is no fault in allowing the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth. That believers are "open to correction and still very much a work in progress" is the same attitude (imo) that the Apostle Paul desired for the assemblies, or he wouldn't have written his letters.

Isaiah had such warmth and comfort in the writing he was given from God. From the opening lines of the first words, "Comfort, comfort my people" there is that thread that God does not reject His own.
When he writes "Do not fear, for I am with you" the heart echos the words of Christ, "I am with you always."
God challenges those to bring evidence that their god(s) are capable to answer, but none can.
So He points to (imo) the church age (Isaiah 42:1-8) from the sending of "My chosen one" who teaches those of heaven a "new song" (verse 9-10).
Then that time of destruction upon those that are ungodly.
BUT, God, through Isaiah, does not want the people of Jacob to be alarmed and dismayed, so He restates, "Do not fear, for I have redeemed you." The world system will be destroyed, but you are mine.
However, because the folks of Israel did not follow the Lord, he will bring punishment to them, too.
But again, He, speaking through Isaiah, brings comfort, for He does not reject but restores. Others will chase after all manner of worship and idols, but "You, Israel, will not be forgotten of me."

I could go on reviewing that wonderful section of Isaiah, but this post would be longer than what Isaiah wrote. It is a wonderful section of Scriptures!

For those who are still reading this post, the difficulty of selecting a view of past eschatology thinking is that the old theologians had not the frame of reference from which to construct their view of prophecy. They relied upon their old theologians, who in turn relied upon their old theologians...

In the modern times, the world events have shown that more and more of the prophetic statements that could only be put in word pictures, and by some old theologians all but ignored, can now be taken as fact, as literal.

Israel is not just the political / social group of the OT or the church of the NT, and never the two will meet. Nor, is Israel the term for only the redeemed, and never again to refer to the political / social group. That is the thinking of those who would adopt views that had yet to experience the modern of our time with its destructive forces and a literal nation.

But one can now understand the prophecies in the lite of witnessing how God did cause the political / social group to again be formed (as the prophets indicated would happen) and therefore, it is reliable that the prophecy concerning the spiritual restoration prophecies of that group will also happen.

(Imo),the recognition that such fulfillment has happened, is happening, and will happen is what (considering this is the season of Christ's birth) the motivation caused the wise of the east to be led to the house where the Child lived.

Personally, I rejoice, when I read that one is willing to be shown by Scriptures an error and to allow growth. It happens to me, and I understand the joy from the Lord such brings.

Too often, there are those who are so "locked" into some scheme and they would find themselves in both internal turmoil and external scorn should it be found out they were even considering another view to investigate.

I am well blessed by those on the board who exercise great care and much use of Scriptures when they present their views. And more confident that the Holy Spirit will ultimately guide the seeking readers into all truth as we banter back and forth on these topics.

 

Icon,

It's important that we see the "Near/Far Prophetic Fulfillment" as Well as "Dual Fulfillment" when discussing prophecy.