Featured Where does faith come from? 2nd Rodeo

I am bumping this for an answer:

God gave us our hearts and minds too. Does that mean we have God's heart and mind? 'Believe in me with all My heart, soul, mind, strength'?

'The Word is the source of faith, not God directly'? What twisted logic, in fact it is a formal fallacy.

God has spoken the Word, which is His Word, proceeding from Him, and is all truth, and from whence faith is given, yet faith is not from God directly? Wow!!!! Talk about missing the forest for the trees! It's like denying that the worlds and all creatures actually came from God Himself, and, that these only came from His Word which He used to create them. That's senseless and utterly ridiculous and it is the same logic you are arguing.

The Word is directly from God yet you attempt to draw a false dichotomy between what He has spoken and who He is. Ridiculous.

 

No false dichotomy. I simply believe the Bible. Here it is once again:

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Now do you believe it? If so why do you believe that God, without the aid of the Word, must somehow insert in some supernatural way "faith" into the unregenerate mind that he may have the ability to be saved. And where is the Scripture to back up such a belief?

And when you answer do so without the ad hominems.

 

That's not the point, yet here you go trying to bury your faulty doctrine in a thread with blundering posts not addressing what I stated. You do this often. Ever consider how many times you plainly cannot answer those who dismantle your ideologies as perhaps a 'sign' that you hold to much false teaching?

We all know faith comes from the Word, not innately as you falsely preach. Then you say it doesn't come from God directly, just from His Word.

That's more erroneous teaching on your part.

When you speak, does it come from you directly?

God also created the world and all creatures with His Word, thus to follow your error logically and consistently He didn't create it directly. That's utter nonsense, your teaching is a formal fallacy and frankly is false teaching. I stand amazed at what lengths you go to to mitigate God's part in all things, only to exalt exalt man and give man undue credit.

God created the world directly by His Word, He also grants faith directly in the same way.

The bottom line is you have no argument and know you're in error here and your pride won't allow you to concede.

 

Thank you. The 'You don't believe the Bible but I do' innuendo's are old and crusty.

 

RE: John 3:3,6,7: "You must be born again." You have stated previously that salvation and regeneration take place simultaneously. There are some that believe that salvation and regeneration for all intents and purposes are the same thing. IOW, when the gospel is presented to an individual, and that individual "trusts" Christ as their Savior, then what happens? They are both born again and saved. The result is the same. But faith preceded both.

1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
--Irrelevant. I was baptized two years after I was saved. It has nothing to do with salvation.

Revelation 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
--Irrelevant. This speaks of God's judgment, not salvation; nothing to do with faith.

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
--The condition for being written in the Lamb's book of life, is "being born again," and God knew all along in his great omniscience, who would choose to be saved and who wouldn't.

I would immediately ask these questions:
Would not that "holy disposition" come as a result of regeneration/salvation.
Would not that "holy disposition" more accurately be called "sanctification" which indeed happens some time after regeneration.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
--This verse is directed to the believer. No doubt he is a new creature, but the context isn't even speaking of that. It is speaking how there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, rich and poor, black and white, tall and short, etc., etc., We are all one in Christ. The "old things" are the things in the past that identified us: occupation, physical appearance, race, etc. We are not identified that way any longer. We are identified as followers of Christ for we are one in Christ.

The context:
2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
--We no longer know one another after the flesh--their occupation, race, what they did or accomplished in life. We know them now because we are all one in Christ: new creatures.

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
--Many people use this verse. I don't like to use it. Again, it is taken out of context:

Ezekiel 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
--The passage has to do with the restoration of Israel in the end times.

Deuteronomy 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
--Again what is the context:

Deuteronomy 30:5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
--Same context as Ezekiel 36--the restoration of Israel.

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
--Paul has been literally addressing the Jews in this chapter. It has nothing to do with the Gentiles. He is speaking of the validity of Jewish circumcision. Like Ahab, his circumcision didn't mean much because of the wicked life he lived.

Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
--Absolutely agree. The Holy Spirit has been given to those of us who have believed.
Look at the context here as well.
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--We are justified by faith, not God's faith, but our own.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
--Love is a basic attribute of the Christian. Every Christian ought to exhibit the divine love of God. But what has this to do with salvation, and the Lord imparting to the unregenerate "faith."

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
--There is nothing mysterious here, and this verse does not teach that. The work of the Holy Spirit is very apparent. Here is what MacArthur says.

The wind blows where it wishes. Jesus' point was that just as the wind cannot be controlled or understood by human beings but its effects can be witnessed, so also it is with the Holy Spirit. He cannot be controlled or understood, but the proof of His work is apparent. Where the Spirit works, there is undeniable and unmistakable evidence.

IOW, it is evident when the Holy Spirit has come and gone. We can very clearly see the results of His work. We don't control His work, but we do see the results. There is a change in the believer.

I agree that it is by His power in connection with divine truth. This is what I have been saying all along.
The Holy Spirit works through the Word of God to bring a person to salvation.

No argument. Regeneration and salvation results in obedience.

I agree with that as well.
And, "Now do you believe it?" [/QUOTE]
Always. I just don't always agree with some interpretations of it.

 

No scripture, just ad hominem. I don't hold false teaching. You keep accusing me of that but you haven't posted a scripture yet.

It does come from his Word. Are you confused?

Is Romans 10:17 erroneous? That is what I have been teaching. But you don't refute it.

You have some choices here:
1. You can communicate to me through what is written here.
2. You could choose another vehicle of writing: email, etc.
3. You could do some detective work and find out my phone #. and talk to me audibly.
4. You could search farther and find my address and talk to me in purpose.

God chooses to speak to you in the same way you choose to speak to me: through words: or His Word. In the past it wasn't so:
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
--But now He speaks to us through His Son, and he does that through His Word.
You don't have the privilege any more of speaking to him audibly as some of the OT prophets did.

What false teaching. He has chosen to speak to us through His Word. What is difficult about that concept. That is what is taught in Rom.10:17.
What is not taught there is the concept that God gives the unregenerate faith.

You have not added anything new to this conversation.
God does not give faith to the unregenerate. How does anything you say add or disprove this fact. It doesn't. You are also very reluctant to use scripture.

 

There were no ad hominems, but the fact is you have no answers. But you pull out the 'no Scripture' card as if that somehow erases your error and sets you free from the mistakes you've stated.

Now, the thing is you are incorrect in saying faith comes from the Word of God just not from God directly. But then you say faith is innate...and you say that I am confused?

You're in error and your teaching is false at this point friend.

And by the way I needed no Scripture to ask you to answer your error, but will offer you some now:

Here are two: Romans 10:17; and Psalms 33:6; By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host.

As we can see faith and the world with all its creatures, and all we see whether visible or invisible (another verse for you, Colossians 1:16) have their existence directly from God via His Word. Thus faith comes from God's Word and is therefore directly from God. You say that is not so, that it only came from His Word just not directly from God. Your error is absurd, and my friend I am not the one who is confused here.

 

He continuously levels false charges on what I say and others. Thanks for standing up against it my brother.

 

I am not the one in error, nor am I confused. You talk about ad hominems. Slowly reread this post and see how you have written it.

Faith comes from the Word and from hearing the Word. Agreed.
Suppose you witness to someone without your Bible, but only with the knowledge of your Bible. Does that make your words "inspired"? You are now the one speaking forth the truth of the Word. You are the author of your message. If the person gets saved it is "all of you," isn't it? God isn't the author of your message. And the person that believes is believing you, putting faith in your message.

Remember we are commanded to be His ambassadors, His witnesses, to carry out the Great Commission. The early believers could not carry the great bulky scrolls with them every where they went. Often they were without the Scriptures. So what were their hearers hearing? Were they hearing God or the message of God from the apostles and early believers or disciples of the apostles?

The Word is not God. You need to study theology proper, Christology, Bibliology, and find out the differences between them. You are confused.

 

People that have weak faith need to think that the bible is somehow perfect. They never grow past being bottle feed. Has anyone told you yet that Santa Clause is not real either?

 

Great post. I clearly don't have your patience in dealing with egg heads. But maybe if I had more free time.

 

I think you subconsciously chose a very appropriate avatar.

 

I snipped out all the other parts which were nothing but blundering bunk. The above is left to show how you debate and what arguments you use to make pretense as to actually have brought a rebuttal.

You have not.

This is one of the most inane responses you've come up with to date, and my friend that is a feat in itself! It only goes to show you have nothing as an answer.

The bottom line is that when God speaks it creates, the sources of life come from His Word, including faith and His quickening power, and therefore it is all directly from Him. You say it is not directly from Him. See how asinine that is? This is how you relentlessly curtail the Godhead daily and you don't even bat an eye over it.

 

I suppose I have to spell it out.
I believe the Bible according to my own understanding through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and prayer.
You believe the Bible according to a set standard of beliefs according to Calvinism. Is that not true?

It is a known fact (I have seen the statistics) that Calvinistic churches are less evangelistic than non-Cal churches. It is a simple fact that their theology leads them to that conclusion. There is one poster here that does't believe the Great Commission is valid for today. I know you don't fall into that category, but many do. Look at all the opposition Carey faced. He had to write a book to convince others about the need for evangelism because they were so stuck in their non-evangelistic Calvinism. (So let the Hindus die. God will elect them according to his will, without our efforts.) That was the prevailing attitude, and seems to be the prevailing attitude toward many Muslim nations today.

I am not bearing false witness at all. It is the common belief among Calvinists. It has to do with the ordo salutis. Earnest Pickering wrote about this in reference to MacArthur's book, "The Gospel According to Jesus"
In one small section he said:

"It may surprise you to learn that Scripture never once exhorts sinners to 'accept Christ.'" (p. 106). We are guilty, says the writer, of employing incorrect terminology when we plead with sinners to "accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior" (p. 106). In citing John 1:11-12 the point is made that "receiving Christ" is more than "accepting him" (p. 106, footnote). The explanation of the difference, however, is less than satisfactory. In an apparent reference to the problem of the ordo salutis (the order of salvation) MacArthur declares, "Thus conversion is not simply a sinner's decision for Christ; it is first the sovereign work of God in transforming the individual" (p. 107). We gather that perhaps he is teaching that regeneration precedes faith. Nevertheless, whatever his view may be on that, it cannot be denied that the sinner must make a decision. We must "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ." He must "repent and believe the gospel." The Bible emphasizes the call to the sinner. Christ condemned the sinners of His day by saying, "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life" (Jn. 5:40). While it is God that saves, there is still a responsibility to come, and we, as faithful witnesses, must issue that invitation.
http://rosesreasonings.blogspot.ca/2006/10/book-review-by-dr-ernest-pickering.html
--The above is an excellent article.

I have not met a Calvinist yet who does't put regeneration before faith, and yet the Bible teaches the opposite. Believe and thou shalt be saved/regenerated (as bro. Cassidy attests happens simultaneously).

Dr. Cassidy is the only one here who has given an honest attempt at trying to show through scriptures that faith is a gift of God given to the unregenerate. Most of you just assert that it is and then use your philosophy and rationalization. You haven't "shown me umpteen times." You haven't given a single scripture that can prove that point.

I gave no such charge.
If a person does not know the difference between God's Word, the Bible, and God Himself, He is thoroughly confused. God's Word is God's revelation, God's instruction manual if you will, to mankind. It is not God Himself.
Go back to your ordo salutis and see why. If it were God himself why does Theopedia make this distinction:

http://www.theopedia.com/ordo-salutis

In Theopedia's version it completely omits faith. But others insert it after regeneration somewhere.
This is contrary to the teaching of 1Pet.1:23 and Rom.10:17 when looked at in harmony with each other.

Paul also said:
1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
--The gospel that saved you is the gospel that you received. They received it by faith.

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.